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Old 05-20-2012, 10:20 AM #43
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Old 05-20-2012, 10:50 PM #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amac
Here is something for those who ***** about webcasts....

Pay to attend the events in person, if the industry cannot pay for ad space on webcasts it goes back to the lack of products being bought by players. Look at who pays full retail on items, it usually is new ones or woodsball folks. Players hate on different formats because they think it is something that will help another format.

LL5 & a national speedball event (NPPL Chicago Open) working side by side is probably only the one time a year both types of players gather to play at the same venue. Supporting the people who support the industry is needed at a point like now.

Posting a thread on a forum which will be archived sooner than anyone can even remember isn't going to change the situation the sport/industry is in.

Blame it on greed blame it on a league being better than another or anything else but it's players cutting their own head off wanting cheaper & cheaper deals to play.
Finally an intelligent post from someone who's obviously not a spoiled teenager who has no concept of how business works.

It's sad really... We have a great event and I'm excited to get on here and read and talk about it and it's the same old thing... kids making ignorant statements.

I'm not gonna let it spoil the fact that I'm happy that the event went really well, team registration numbers are up from last year, we have a great staff and our fans and sponsors are awesome.

Thanks for another great time and see ya at the DC Challenge!!!

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Old 05-20-2012, 11:23 PM #45
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Thanks Chris,

Having played Divisional levels in PSP, NPPL, Millennium Series and also the CXBL/AXBL you get to see what is offered in the various formats and styles of play available for tournament paintball. Sadly a webcast only gives someone the chance to watch the players and teams they like but does not actually help those companies who pay staff and sent trucks to events or even help sell paint. The two things that are the only reason the industry even exists in the first place.

Sadly you don't go to a restaurant that you don't like what they offer just to write on their comments cards and to **** in their bathrooms without purchasing anything.

While you can usually tell the understanding of business side of things from the grammar and language someone posts with. It is more the entitlement and the instant gratification (or in this case updates on games) that is causing issues in current day paintball climate.

The old days when you had to wait to get a call post event on how your friends/teams were doing at an national event are long gone but the respect for how things were run shouldn't have been lost with the changes in technology.

A lot of the lets run to the Nation to complain about every little thing attitude can attributed to the need for people to be able to say it through a computer and not face to face which would be how most mature players (not meaning older but in terms of respect) would do it. But to do it face to face I guess you would have to actually attend the events which many of the users who post negative feedback do not do at all and since then they are totally cut off from the event/series experience they do the only thing they know how to, whine...

I will say that I was disappointed with the layout of the players area compared to last year even and at times the reffing was a little bit more lax than was needed. But having also reffed national events it is a very hard job to do in the heat all day long and it does wear any person down but resting on the net while two refs try to get you to actually go in to check the snake twice is a bit over the top. These two things were directly pointed out in the hopes to improve the future event before Saturday's games were even finished instead of running online to vent.

While you're entitled to your own opinion, your not entitled to your own facts and if not having a webcast means you have no idea what happened at the event and are angry/sad/disappointed that you couldn't follow your favorite team/players then maybe save up some cash, get yourself to DC and from behind your computer screen and at an actual event to support the companies who support the leagues which have some of the greatest players in the sport.

*Side note the webcast doesn't have the same experience as partying until 4am with Tilted Kilt staff so that even being a possibility alone should be more than enough of a reason to get your ***** to CPX next year...
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Old 05-21-2012, 08:19 AM #46
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I don't usually stumble into a thread and merc random posters, but I couldn't just walk away from this one.

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Here is something for those who ***** about webcasts....

Pay to attend the events in person, if the industry cannot pay for ad space on webcasts it goes back to the lack of products being bought by players. Look at who pays full retail on items, it usually is new ones or woodsball folks. Players hate on different formats because they think it is something that will help another format.
I cannot tell you how wrong-headed this notion is. The reason that the webcast exists for so many of us is so that we can experience the events because we cannot afford to attend them in person. When an event is near me (PSP New Jersey) I attend because it's not an expensive proposition. Airfare and/or gas expenses, lodging of one sort or another, and a weekend's worth of food quickly adds up and is that much less money that can make its way into the hands of the sponsors through purchases of gear/paint and time spent playing. When a rival league is able to put on a high-quality webcast at events (and has been doing so for more than a year), even through disastrous weather conditions, and another league struggles to produce watchable content, of course there will be negative comparisons.

Of course more money is made through receipts at the gate. It's just that many of us do not have that kind of money/time.

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Posting a thread on a forum which will be archived sooner than anyone can even remember isn't going to change the situation the sport/industry is in.
How else will our voices be heard? Sure, this thread will quickly be forgotten. But if no one voices their complaints in the ways afforded to them, how will the powers that be recognize that the masses are unhappy with the product presented to them? I can't just call up the NPPL and say "Hey, random person here, but you should think about raising your profile so that your fans can get excited about your product" and expect anything.

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Blame it on greed blame it on a league being better than another or anything else but it's players cutting their own head off wanting cheaper & cheaper deals to play.
No. It's the fans wanting an opportunity to experience the excitement of the league when they're otherwise unable to attend. If players can find a more rewarding experience elsewhere, they'll go. The complaints about not being able to watch the matches was never one lodged by players, who are at events playing. This is for the fans who for one reason or another will probably never be able to set foot on a field at a national tournament.

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Sadly a webcast only gives someone the chance to watch the players and teams they like but does not actually help those companies who pay staff and sent trucks to events or even help sell paint. The two things that are the only reason the industry even exists in the first place.
Fallacious argument is fallacious. It's in the sponsors' best interests to raise the profile of the event, because 1) their money won't go to waste, and 2) people will get excited about the products featured at the event and be more likely to go out and buy those products. It's called advertising, which by your argument seems to be a waste of money.

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Sadly you don't go to a restaurant that you don't like what they offer just to write on their comments cards and to **** in their bathrooms without purchasing anything.
Second fallacious advertisement is equally fallacious. Here's a better analogy - you walk into a restaurant, read the menu, are disappointed with the choices offered, and then leave the establishment. You then tell people that you were frustrated with your experience on Yelp, where you mention a second restaurant you like a lot more, and discuss your disappointments with others, both like-minded and those holding different opinions than you. I fail to understand why voicing such opinions would not be our right.

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A lot of the lets run to the Nation to complain about every little thing attitude can attributed to the need for people to be able to say it through a computer and not face to face which would be how most mature players (not meaning older but in terms of respect) would do it. But to do it face to face I guess you would have to actually attend the events which many of the users who post negative feedback do not do at all and since then they are totally cut off from the event/series experience they do the only thing they know how to, whine...
Point me in the direction of someone and I will gladly tell them that I am unhappy with their product and will therefore gladly patronize their primary competitor until I see their product improve.

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While you can usually tell the understanding of business side of things from the grammar and language someone posts with.
You forget an article, complain about grammar and language, and promptly dangle a preposition before you could even finish the sentence. Would you like me to use that as a reason to say that you are unaware of "business side of things"? Probably not. Not everyone is as deft at using the written word as others are, but it in no way, shape, or form means that they don't understand "business side of things".

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It is more the entitlement and the instant gratification (or in this case updates on games) that is causing issues in current day paintball climate.

The old days when you had to wait to get a call post event on how your friends/teams were doing at an national event are long gone but the respect for how things were run shouldn't have been lost with the changes in technology.
I would argue that what's causing the issues is the overall cost of playing paintball with any sort of regularity. I choose to spend my money playing as often as I can and not on traveling to events in which I'll probably never be able to compete. I also don't understand this argument. Why is it a bad thing to want organizers to update the fans on the outcomes of games? The technology exists. Hell, find a kid, hand him a phone, and tell him to post game updates to the NPPL twitter feed or facebook page (as it seems they have done, judging by the quality of the writing for an official feed from a professional orgainzation). It's not like this is expensive, complicated technology we're asking for. Sure, you lose web traffic through your flagship web page, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be selling adspace on your facebook and twitter pages either. And before someone leaps forward and tells me you can't do that or that it violates TOS, I ask you who decides what image files are posted to the page.

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While you're entitled to your own opinion, your not entitled to your own facts and if not having a webcast means you have no idea what happened at the event and are angry/sad/disappointed that you couldn't follow your favorite team/players then maybe save up some cash, get yourself to DC and from behind your computer screen and at an actual event to support the companies who support the leagues which have some of the greatest players in the sport.
I fail to see which facts are in question here. The facts I see are that the NPPL doesn't have a webcast and hasn't updated their website with game results - I had to wade through the twitter feed to find out who won.

Most of these fans are kids. How are they possibly going to be able to save up enough money to go to an event? They don't have jobs. They can't just hop in their cars and drive out, or jump on a plane. They're kids. We adult fans have lives that revolve around jobs, families, and friends, and sometimes it just isn't in the cards for us to attend events. You clearly have a larger disposable income than the rest of us do. Congratulations on your success in life, whether by hard work or by birth, but don't forget that the rest of us are not as fortunate as you are.

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*Side note the webcast doesn't have the same experience as partying until 4am with Tilted Kilt staff so that even being a possibility alone should be more than enough of a reason to get your ***** to CPX next year...
I go to events to watch paintball, not get drunk with strangers. I can do that without going very far from home, thank you very much.
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Old 05-21-2012, 12:03 PM #47
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"You're one smart Muhf**cka."

You said it best: If I can't get something at one place, I'll simply take my business to their competitor, while at the same time telling all my friends about my experience so that they don't make the same misstep.

Amac, telling people to stop voicing their opinions (business knowledge notwithstanding) is really just sour grapes. If the NPPL doesn't want these negative opinions about their inferior product out there, then the solution is simple: improve the product. Telling people they shouldn't complain because they didn't physically go to the event is ridiculous.
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Old 05-21-2012, 12:15 PM #48
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"You're one smart Muhf**cka."


Obliged, obliged.
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Old 05-21-2012, 12:18 PM #49
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I will say one more thing as well: How is it the PSP/PBA can pull off what can only be called a broadcast-ready webcast, and the NPPL can't?

Let's just cut all the BS and say why: The NPPL is going broke. If I'm wrong, someone please tell me otherwise.
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Old 05-21-2012, 01:01 PM #50
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I guess most of my sarcasm was missed but thanks for quoting my posts so much its good to not just have a 4 word reply. The not buying anything from a business and then ****ting on them was sarcasm as in you want to sit at home not pay one cent and still complain type of attitude. Also the side note on partying with your teammates (who are not strangers) was also a joke but glad to know you can also drink close to home, just like the rest of us.

I am unsure of the reason why players who have no money and expect a webcast to be produced so they don't have to spend money to attend events or in that case event buy products & save their own money is okay but the players who actually spend their own money to play each event and to support the industry are just thrown aside as if they don't do anything at all? You don't see them on the webcasts getting screen time and wider profiles and exposure it is just the pro players which is fine with me since I honestly think that the webcasts feed the "I get what I want, when I want" attitude which is damaging the sport. The biggest draw for myself with the Chicago Open (aside form playing) is being able to talk paintball with all of the "old school" industry folks who are there for LL because they were the ones who helped create things from the start.

The chances of someone sitting at home going and buying any product either that they see a pro player wear/use on a webcast or one that is showcased between games on a webcast is much lower then the percentage of actual purchases of items when you can actually see the item in use and walk over to a companies booth pick it up talk to the reps who know the product head to toe and then buy it right then and there. If you want to see some stats on that go check with an advertising agency to see which direction they would suggest to clients.

I am glad that you mentioned why not be using social media work that another league does because I actually run the PSP Facebook page and I would do the same for the NPPL at the drop of a hat to ensure that they have the best updates and game by game action. Mind you I would not stop playing to do that because that is the only time I get to play in a larger league at this point, but still would help ensure amazing content was created outside of my field time.

My background is in communications, video production, new media and marketing so to tell me what has been working to increase actual sales for clients/businesses seems like all of the years of working to develop brands and increase actual sales via technology was a fluke or a random chance that I had been flown all over the world do work on projects with that end goal.

There were two kids who play young guns in a series our team refs as part of our sponsorship that came down to watch us a D3 team play and to see some of the pro games. They didn't come along with our team they came down because they wanted to see the local guys they know play and to see what the event was all about. Sure it cost them something and a parent had to take them but those are going to be the players that I see staying in the sport for the next 10 years and the ones who I will sponsor because they have the heart to spend what little money that have to come to events.

I wrote my initial post after a 9 hour drive to get home after playing an event all weekend long supporting paintball companies and representing our sponsors who support us. If your wanting to do the same to give some insight into what the NPPL (or any other league) needs to improve and not just throw input in from the outside DC is 13 weeks away more than enough time to put aside a bit of money each week to cover travel, hotel and food. Maybe even find a team which you can play with to try to get the insight of the full players experience. Or just sit at home and watch Heroes For A Day because there honestly hasn't been much changes since 2003 for what players will put on hold in their "regular lives" to get to events aside from the declining support from the paintball industry due to the drop in sales of products so players/teams are having to do more things to keep sponsors happy and to ensure that they can afford food/rent between events and still have that "regular life" outside of paintball.
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Old 05-21-2012, 02:48 PM #51
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Apparently my reply is too long, so please excuse the two posts.

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... but thanks for quoting my posts so much its good to not just have a 4 word reply.
Of course. Unlike the majority of the people on Pbnation, I value actual discourse. I also try to be thorough. I was also taught to cite arguments to which I was responding, and block quoting sucked up a lot of page space on my papers that I then didn't have to fill with actual analysis.

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I guess most of my sarcasm was missed...The not buying anything from a business and then ****ting on them was sarcasm as in you want to sit at home not pay one cent and still complain type of attitude. Also the side note on partying with your teammates (who are not strangers) was also a joke but glad to know you can also drink close to home, just like the rest of us.
Yes. Yes it was. Humor is subjective, so I'm not going to get into a discussion of what's funny and what's not. I missed that you meant these parts of your post in jest and addressed them as though you'd said them seriously. My apologies for destroying the straw man you'd built.

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I am unsure of the reason why players who have no money and expect a webcast to be produced so they don't have to spend money to attend events or in that case event buy products & save their own money is okay but the players who actually spend their own money to play each event and to support the industry are just thrown aside as if they don't do anything at all? You don't see them on the webcasts getting screen time and wider profiles and exposure it is just the pro players which is fine with me since I honestly think that the webcasts feed the "I get what I want, when I want" attitude which is damaging the sport.
The crux of your argument appears, to me at least, to be that you want to see more people in the stands at events (understandably so) and that a free webcast is going to be the reason that people stay home instead of attending events. As happy as I am with the PSP's webcast (and my complaints have more to do with Lasoya than with the technical side of things), I know that it doesn't hold a candle to actually watching the event. The director gets too focused on trying to show snake battles and almost never shows anything going down D-side unless the cameraman getting a wide angle happened to be pointed at the move. Case and point - that ridiculous flip/dive contortion that Fedorov did that Matty freaked out about…and we never saw until replay.

Your argument was actually used by a number of American professional sports teams in the 50s with the rise of television. The team ownership felt that if a broadcast of home games was made available, the public wouldn't turn out for games, and decided to only broadcast away games. Yes, attendance did decline somewhat when all games were televised, but for many people out there, the prospect of actually going to a game was very, very difficult.

What you propose is effectively that you'd like to install a paywall around tournament paintball, so that the only way to watch the sport at its highest levels would be to go to events in person. This won't grow the sport; it'll accomplish quite the opposite. I'd never in a million years be able to get my friends who know nothing about paintball to go watch an event, but if I sent them the link to the webcast, they might tune in, watch a game or two, and decide "hey, this is really cool, I'd love to go out and play some time". Yes, events have to make money. Yes, sponsors need to get their money back to continue to run tournaments. But they also need to take a longer view of things and realize that once we have a much stronger bedrock of fanbase for the sport, more people will turn out to events. It's more important to penetrate the consciousness of new players than reward the existing player. Would you like it if your favorite team decided they weren't going to televise games and the only way to watch them would be to spend money going to games?
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Old 05-21-2012, 02:51 PM #52
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The biggest draw for myself with the Chicago Open (aside form playing) is being able to talk paintball with all of the "old school" industry folks who are there for LL because they were the ones who helped create things from the start.
I haven't been involved in the sport long enough to be able to fully appreciate this, but this sounds like an excellent reason to attend a tournament. But, again, not everybody has that same connection to the game. For a lot of people, paintball is just that thing that the one guy or girl at work or school who has these strange circular marks on their bodies always raves about, but don't know much more about the sport. The webcast is for them, people like my boss who thinks I'm a "professional player" because I mentioned once that my team is sponsored.

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The chances of someone sitting at home going and buying any product either that they see a pro player wear/use on a webcast or one that is showcased between games on a webcast is much lower then the percentage of actual purchases of items when you can actually see the item in use and walk over to a companies booth pick it up talk to the reps who know the product head to toe and then buy it right then and there. If you want to see some stats on that go check with an advertising agency to see which direction they would suggest to clients.

My background is in communications, video production, new media and marketing so to tell me what has been working to increase actual sales for clients/businesses seems like all of the years of working to develop brands and increase actual sales via technology was a fluke or a random chance that I had been flown all over the world do work on projects with that end goal.
I agree wholeheartedly. I shoot an Axe* because I love the marker, not because Nicky Cuba does, and I don't expect that because a kid sees one in his hand that he'll want to run out and buy one. For a person who already plays and wants to make informed decisions about new gear, being able to have access to the booths at events is a great luxury. Perhaps I didn't do a good job of making my point before. Those people are greatly served at events. I'm talking about the people who are casually into paintball suddenly being able to watch events and think to themselves "wow, that looks awesome. I want to do that." They'll go to their local field, play, start buying equipment, and maybe one day wind up at a national tournament. Along the way, they're buying new guns, pants, jerseys, etc, and supporting the sponsors of events. Perhaps it's not as direct as going to an event, but new players have to buy their gear from somebody.

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I am glad that you mentioned why not be using social media work that another league does because I actually run the PSP Facebook page and I would do the same for the NPPL at the drop of a hat to ensure that they have the best updates and game by game action. Mind you I would not stop playing to do that because that is the only time I get to play in a larger league at this point, but still would help ensure amazing content was created outside of my field time.
That's good to hear (as you appear to have a better command of the written word than the individual doing the NPPL's twitter feed, who writes like high school English was that class he always cut to sneak into another lunch period and hang out with his girlfriend), but I'm unfamiliar with how well the PSP's Facebook page is updated because I'm usually watching the webcast. The PSP has a great media presence and that's part of the reason so many people who don't play national tournaments like it. I can't comment on officiating, or how well the events run, but I can say that I enjoy the media made available by the PSP for the public. Yes, the commercials are obnoxious, especially at the end of Sunday when you can recite all of them from memory, but we put up with them. If the NPPL could convince Valken to run a bunch of commercials during the webcast, I don't think anybody would complain. Well, they would, but they wouldn't be substantive complaints.

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There were two kids who play young guns in a series our team refs as part of our sponsorship that came down to watch us a D3 team play and to see some of the pro games. They didn't come along with our team they came down because they wanted to see the local guys they know play and to see what the event was all about.
Great to hear! Anything to help grow the sport is a step in the right direction. They probably had a blast.

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Sure it cost them something and a parent had to take them
Not everybody has such generous parents or the kind of jobs that allow us to make enough money to go/get the time off. I guarantee you, if I was independently wealthy, I'd be at as many tournaments as Damage is this year. I'm not, so I'm only going to the event near me.

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…but those are going to be the players that I see staying in the sport for the next 10 years and the ones who I will sponsor because they have the heart to spend what little money that have to come to events.
So you only sponsor the kids with rich parents? I'm sure there were plenty of people who wanted to go but couldn't for financial reasons. There are plenty of people who would watch the webcast and play for the next n years, and the sponsors of events would be able to sell their products to those new players.

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I wrote my initial post after a 9 hour drive to get home after playing an event all weekend long supporting paintball companies and representing our sponsors who support us.
I did the same thing, just in a different place. Instead of watching a webcast this weekend, I supported a number of paintball companies. I bought Valken paint from OXCC for their Gangland game and GI Sportz paint from Long Live Paintball in NJ, all the while wearing my sponsors' logos on my jersey. Just because I would like to have the option to have watched Friday's games from work doesn't mean that there aren't other ways to support the paintball community and my sponsors. In fact, I would argue that playing at local fields is a better way to support the sport because without them, where would we play? A tournament series may come and go, but if I don't have anywhere to play, why would I keep playing? I would have very much liked to go back through the webcast at the end of the day when I got home and watched a couple of matches, but this wasn't an option. Believe it or not, you can both support paintball and watch the webcasts in the same day.

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If your wanting to do the same to give some insight into what the NPPL (or any other league) needs to improve and not just throw input in from the outside DC is 13 weeks away more than enough time to put aside a bit of money each week to cover travel, hotel and food.
I would love to, but my team has already committed to games in August (including one at our home field), and I have a finite amount of time and money to devote to paintball. And I'm sure that they wouldn't really want to listen to my input anyway because I'm just some random guy saying things they've heard from a bunch of other people already.

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Maybe even find a team which you can play with to try to get the insight of the full players experience.
If I could afford to play events, let alone attend them, I would. That was never the issue. I'd love nothing more than to be able to go to and play events. I just can't afford it. I also haven't played speedball even approaching enough to be ready for an event, so obviously I'd have to practice. That costs money (which would go to event sponsors, because I have to get paint and gear from somebody). Sure, the NPPL or PSP doesn't get the entry fee from the hypothetical team, but I don't doubt for a second that if the NPPL collapsed that paintball and the sponsors would survive.

I'm not going to get into a discussion of whether paintball should have two major North American leagues because I don't even begin to pretend to know what I'm talking about there when it comes to the business parts of running the leagues, who owns whom, etc. I just want to see the leagues take advantage of whatever means they have to promote their product, because ultimately that's better for everybody. The webcasts are a chance for the leagues to put their best foot forward, and the glossy look of the PSP's webcasts make the league look better by comparison


*Yes, my team is sponsored by Kee, but we don't get free anything, and our sponsorship doesn't prohibit us from shooting other markers. I shoot an Axe because I like the thing, not because I'm supposed to.
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Old 05-21-2012, 03:47 PM #53
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TL;DR there are a bunch of different ways to support the sponsors of tournament series that don't necessarily involve going to the events, and having an ad-supported webcast will greatly assist in raising the profile of the NPPL and paintball as a whole.
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Old 05-21-2012, 04:01 PM #54
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My main point regarding the webcast is that is takes money away from things that the event itself could benefit from. Telling a company to drop $20,000 so people at home can watch the event from a comfortable place or even at work away from where the action is only providing something to the players who aren't supporting said league at all when spending $5,000 and hiring some great photographers to shoot all of the matches that happen at an event seems like a better investment and it also gives something back to the players/teams who are actually taking their time/money and support said league. Having images of every player/team playing is a much wider blanket of media coverage than providing a webcast where you have to be there to watch it at a set time and then it is maybe archived and some games uploaded to YouTube. The local players who know that said teams go to a national event from their home field see those images and says to themselves hey in 3-4 years I want that to be me. Anyone who watches a webcast of Pro games and says hey I want that to be me in 3-4 years is not totally understanding what it takes to get to that level and what it takes to stay at that level. It support the local field at the local level not from the national event to local field level is there isn't a local team attending these events.

I also will say that I am not directing any of the things I say towards you specifically as a person/player but these are general things I have seen over the many years of playing in many leagues in many different places of the world. Am I right no by I have been involved from when the sport was huge and events were massive to the current climate the sport is in so I'm going on my views from first hand experience not just opinion.

Before the medium switched to free online video the only way to see things about paintball was to buy magazines and to buy event DVDs to see what had happened at the event. Did those things get handed out for free because you liked paintball or that you wanted to maybe show your boss/neighbor/Uncle/Grandmother what the sport was so they could understand it better? No you had to pay for the media coverage. The assumption that any league should create content for free since players cannot afford to travel to events is slightly one sided. Should I make videos for people because they cannot afford to pay someone to do it properly no I shouldn't its a bad business decision. Very much like a league shouldn't be providing free things to people who are not supporting the league its money out the door never to return or a very low chance of ever returning.

Sorry that events are not close enough for everyone to attend but for years I would drive 18 hours to play four matches in a weekend to land home tired and sore come Monday and go to work do be able to afford it all over again. Driving the team from England to the South of France to play Toulouse took more out of me than playing the actual games but it still is something you have to do if you want to play at a higher level. Should any player expect a league to change venues to have things better suited to where they live no sorry the days of any league having 5-6 events a season will not be back again so having to travel more is needed.

If a company wants to drop a huge amount of money on a webcast because it gets younger players talking more about the games and it maybe in the long run makes them buy the items or buy the teams branded products who they sponsor then that is their call.

I sponsor/support players with providing them resources be it practice time, coaching/pit help at events or setting up a Pro clinic to give them some additional advantage because they have the heart to go the distance and not let barriers stop them.

I will also point out that the current team that I play for doesn't get anything for free we pay for items because that is how the industry works. The days of teams getting handed a brand new jersey, pants, and mask plus paint each event have disappeared or are so small that if players at local levels think that still happens every day that these players are out there at events then they are slightly out to lunch.

We played like sh*t our first day this past weekend but came out hard on day two stomped down some of the teams who were all wins and no loses the day before so much that a marker company rep had offered our team a sponsorship package because he was so impressed. We shoot gun of choice because markers are the hardest thing to get supported with. If we didn't play a national event would we be offered that from said company? No we wouldn't because your not going to get offered things while sitting behind your computer screen watching a webcast.

Between events I'm broke as hell but I make ends meet just so I can get to the next event, I don't go out to eat often, waste money on things I don't need and honestly spend a lot of time being bored waiting for time to count down until the next practice or event. These are the types of things you will do if your really wanting to be able to be playing a full season for a league not everyone who attends event has rich parents or is independently wealthy.

Even worse on top of being broke I had some major surgery due to being badly assaulted at the first of 2012 (had to have 12 hour surgery to rebuild my face and have been arch bars to fix my fractured jaw and have a long road of rehab). I could have just rolled over and said oh **** I'm broke, need time to recover due to this random injury and tell the team who asked me to play for them that I couldn't but a paintball lifestyle is a choice and sure at times it isn't fun but I'd rather be at the event watching/playing than sitting at home making excuses to why I'm not there.

Allowing barriers like money and distance to events be the excuse to why you or other people cannot attend (either to play or watch) are just that excuses. An easy way to deflect that you don't have enough drive to ensure that your able to make it happen. Also priorities are hard to balance with "regular life" but if you know any national events dates and chose to play a local one over it then there isn't much finger pointing on where your priorities are at. Vegas is still there if you cannot make it to DC but yet again it takes time/money/and drive to ensure that at the end of the day your not just sitting at home on the date of any of the national event that you want to be at.
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Old 05-21-2012, 04:27 PM #55
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when spending $5,000 and hiring some great photographers to shoot all of the matches that happen at an event seems like a better investment....
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Old 05-21-2012, 05:14 PM #56
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Again, two posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amac View Post
My main point regarding the webcast is that is takes money away from things that the event itself could benefit from. Telling a company to drop $20,000 so people at home can watch the event from a comfortable place or even at work away from where the action is only providing something to the players who aren't supporting said league at all when spending $5,000 and hiring some great photographers to shoot all of the matches that happen at an event seems like a better investment and it also gives something back to the players/teams who are actually taking their time/money and support said league. Having images of every player/team playing is a much wider blanket of media coverage thank providing a webcast where you have to be there to watch it at a set time and then it is maybe archived and some games uploaded to YouTube.
I understand that things cost money. We can debate the efficacy of different types of media coverage until we both fall over, but my point is primarily about capturing new players to the sport, who will eventually becomes customers of the league and its sponsors. I'm under the impression that the NPPL is owned, at least partially, by its sponsors, similar to how the PSP is partially owned by a number of companies - wasn't this the reason that Valken complained about being "shut out" of selling paint in the PSP?

Perhaps I'm making the mistake of assuming that the event barely breaking even is not necessarily a bad thing. Again, I don't know what the ownership structure looks like, but since we keep talking about the sponsors, are we debating whether people need to attend events and buy things so that sponsors can justify rending booth space? I suppose it's my mistake for not making us adequately defining our terms before the discussion began, so I guess I should fix that now.

My point is effectively this - the NPPL needs to make an investment in its future and make some sort of webcast available. Maybe it's not live - the matches could be uploaded to youtube after the fact as the PSP did last year, and then fill the match footage with commercials and splash sponsor logos up during breaks or keep a small watermark going. Will this cost money? Of course. I'm not stupid. I've been interning in the film industry for way, way too long not to know that this stuff is expensive and that money is tight thanks to Goldman shorting Bear Stearns into oblivion (and the world economy, by proxy).

Why has nobody thought of Kickstarter? It's all the rage these days, and I see no reason why the NPPL can't try to raise money that way. Complaining seems to be widespread, and if we accept your figure of $20,000 as the amount needed, you just need to find five thousand whining kids with a measly $4 each. Better yet, charge $5 for a tournament's worth of webcast access. Five dollars. You don't get the ten bucks you charge somebody to sit their butt in a bleacher, but I can afford $25 a year to watch every tournament from the comfort of my own home, and it's $25 the NPPL otherwise wouldn't have had. Again, Kickstarter would work wonders here. If nobody over there has thought of this, they haven't done an effective case study on webcast viability. Plus, once you have the equipment, you spend less on subsequent events doing a webcast, yet you can charge the same price because people don't understand that the expenses go down and collect a bunch more money which you could then roll back into the event and make it better.

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Before the medium switched to free online video the only way to see things about paintball was to buy magazines and to buy event DVDs to see what had happened at the event.
Before Gutenberg, all books were handwritten by monks who also drew pretty little pictures in the margins at key moments in the text. This fact is as irrelevant to the modern media landscape as is comparing hardcopy to webcasts.

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The assumption that any league should create content for free since players cannot afford to travel to events is slightly one sided.
Who said free? I said ad-supported. I'm not stupid. Of course demanding something for free is moronic. Watch the PSP webcast and you'll clearly see who pays for its production, because between matches you're bombarded with the same stupid Dye and ads.

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Very much like a league shouldn't be providing free things to people who are not supporting the league its money out the door never to return or a very low chance of ever returning.
And you know they won't return because…? Again, the sponsors need to be paying (at least partially) for the webcast because it's a promotion tool for them and the sport, and the long-term viability of paintball is in their absolute best interests. Again, there are going to be random people in all corners of the world who see a webcast, get excited about paintball, head out to a field, start playing, and eventually buy gear.

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Anyone who watches a webcast of Pro games and says hey I want that to be me in 3-4 years is not totally understanding what it takes to get to that level and what it takes to stay at that level.
You are aware that the divisional playoffs on Sunday are included in the webcast where time allows, right? And you also understand that people who understand paintball better will watch the webcast in an effort to understand the game on a deeper level, right? I'd love to be able to go back and break down points, see what moves were made where and when, and why one team lost a match. Feel free to make a joke about CEP losing because they can't stay out of the box and how I don't need the webcast to see that.

Quote:
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Sorry that events are not close enough for everyone to attend but for years I would drive 18 hours to play four matches in a weekend to land home tired and sore come Monday and go to work do be able to afford it all over again. Driving the team from England to the South of France to play Toulouse took more out of me than playing the actual games but it still is something you have to do if you want to play at a higher level. Should any player expect a league to change venues to have things better suited to where they live no sorry...
I assume you're not making this point in response to something I posted, because I never claimed that events should be in different places. Of course they should be in places where the community is strong - better facilities, better players, and more interest in the sport. And, again, there's a PSP event at my home field. I'd love to be able to play events. Regularly. One or two a month. Can I afford to? No. And if I can't afford to play one, I'm definitely not going to spend money I would have spent playing to travel to an event just to watch it. Again, want, but CAN. NOT. AFFORD.


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...the days of any league having 5-6 events a season will not be back again so having to travel more is needed.
Galveston, Phoenix, Chicago, New Jersey, Cup. I count five. When the NPPL folds/is absorbed, that number will likely go up, because there won't be another national series.

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If a company wants to drop a huge amount of money on a webcast because it gets younger players talking more about the games and it maybe in the long run makes them buy the items or buy the teams branded products who they sponsor then that is their call.
Kee and Dye seem pretty keen on this. Sure, they have a stake in the success of the PSP, but if it were a bad idea, would they be going into the second year of webcasts, even after the series expanded to five events?

Quote:
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I sponsor/support players with providing them resources be it practice time, coaching/pit help at events or setting up a Pro clinic to give them some additional advantage because they have the heart to go the distance and not let barriers stop them.

I will also point out that the current team that I play for doesn't get anything for free we pay for items because that is how the industry works. The days of teams getting handed a brand new jersey, pants, and mask plus paint each event have disappeared or are so small that if players at local levels think that still happens every day that these players are out there at events then they are slightly out to lunch.
The people with those opinions are probably the ones who are going to chase sponsorships that much harder, which means they'll probably buy gear to try and keep up with the players in the area (as though having the best gear meant you were the best player). Your sponsorship sounds very similar to the ones my field makes available to its sponsored players, so I'm familiar with it. The comment I made was to reflect that you seemed to be glorifying the kids who went as better than the ones who didn't. I bet if you'd asked, there would have been a ton of kids who wanted to go but couldn't.
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Old 05-21-2012, 05:15 PM #57
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Quote:
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Between events I'm broke as hell but I make ends meet just so I can get to the next event, I don't go out to eat often, waste money on things I don't need and honestly spend a lot of time being bored waiting for time to count down until the next practice or event. These are the types of things you will do if your really wanting to be able to be playing a full season for a league not everyone who attends event has rich parents or is independently wealthy…Allowing barriers like money and distance to events be the excuse to why you or other people cannot attend (either to play or watch) are just that excuses. An easy way to deflect that you don't have enough drive to ensure that your able to make it happen. Also priorities are hard to balance with "regular life" but if you know any national events dates and chose to play a local one over it then there isn't much finger pointing on where your priorities are at. Vegas is still there if you cannot make it to DC but yet again it takes time/money/and drive to ensure that at the end of the day your not just sitting at home on the date of any of the national event that you want to be at.
I'd held off until now on making personal attacks because I see a debate of issues as more productive. Your statement that I don't have enough of a "drive" is inflammatory, baseless, and insulting. I see you've made a huge commitment to playing tournament paintball, and I applaud you for that. I'm not in a situation where I can financially justify it, and therefore I don't. If playing a lot of paintball and having a low standard of living is okay by you, then my hat is off to you. It's not okay for me, as there's a lot more to my life than paintball. It appears this is going to descend into personal attacks and questioning my paintball manhood in an effort to justify your own life decisions, and I want no part of that. I don't need to justify my own lifestyle to you, and there's no reason you should feel the same. If that's where this is going, then

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Old 05-21-2012, 05:35 PM #58
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Old 05-21-2012, 05:42 PM #59
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Sad there was no Webcast

As a competitive player who was unable to attend Chicago due to work constraints as well as prohibitive travel costs, I was very saddened by the fact there was no webcast. I would have been willing to even pay (within reason) to be able to watch my favorite teams compete at this event! I think it is in the leagues best interest to pursue webcasts at all events because it helps to raise the legitimacy of paintball as a professional sport! The more legitimate the production value of the webcast the more likely people are going to be willing to pay to watch the event and potentially the more likely it is that television networks will want to get in on the action. The more exposure our sport can get the better for the sport as a whole!
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Old 05-21-2012, 05:44 PM #60
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I like paint bullet wars too guys
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Old 05-21-2012, 05:48 PM #61
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Psp >Nppl get with it scrubs who cares about business its all about what they can offer us
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Old 05-21-2012, 06:38 PM #62
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Simple economics. Your product sucks because you're constantly focused on the wrong direction.

Naturally people complain about your product. (as it happens here on PBN all the time). The robot fanboys and businessmen involved with the league say dismissive comments about your complaints (as if your opinion doesnt matter).

Then their league starts to go tits up. I dont care how intellectually dishonest you NPPL drones are.

THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH. And its playing out right here, right now.

So put your opinions away, (the NPPL really doesnt give a damn) and let Natural Selection take its course. The idiots at the top will go down with the ship, and the fanboys can grow some balls, or quit.

NOBODY CARES!!!
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Old 05-21-2012, 07:07 PM #63
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