I seriously so hard when fanboys really think that a frame that was simply milled too thin was designed to break in order to prevent from injury rather then cut down on weight..
The whole "safety feature" is massively flawed anyways, there's no proof it even prevents injury.. I'm actually willing to bet it's more dangerous to have sharp metal directly in your hand.. you think that's a designed safety feature? give me break.
Before you go and type any other stupid, ignorant or moronic statements, I suggest you actual KNOW what the **** you are talking about:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Wood
Can I comment?
I have posted on this subject several times on PBN but never here, but as you guys are paying it some attention I suppose I may as well have a go at explaining things here too.
The year before last we made a conscious decision as a company to take a look at the dovetail ASA/frame interface point. Through 05 and 06 we had a lot of incidents of people tearing the ASA off the dovetail mount during "accidents" (usually occurring during diving manoeuvres!). This destroyed the frame interface and the ASA and we ended up replacing 2 parts for people, the frame and the ASA. On top of that we had several cases of the hosing pulling out of the fittings after such an incident and the tank/hose flying around.
When we started to look at this when we started on the 07 design we decided that what we felt was best for us, and best from a safety point of view, was to have one sacrificial part, but have it so that that one part kept the tank and the gun body/grip together.
Without adding another "crumple" part between the frame and the ASA, this is what we thought offered the best compromise. The down side is that if you have a crash as bad as this one it will obviously damage the board too, but we feel that the quantities are so low of this type of incident that it warrants the risk.
Yes we do warrant this type of damage. Don't ask me why, but we do. We know people don't do this type of thing on purpose (most of the time!) and that 9/10 it is pure accident or mis-fortune that causes this type of bend.
Yes the gun is light. Yes the frame is milled light. Yes it aluminium. But at the end of the day, we would rather have someone bend a frame and us be able to say "here you go, lets fix that for you" rather than be looking at replacing a bent body, snapped FRM or In-Line reg or worse looking at some kid who just got all his teeth knocked out because he dove in the snake, spiked the barrel, snapped the tank off the ASA and it punched him in the mouth.
Jack
Want more? Hows that Crow tasting? Little tough? Feathers choking you yet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Wood
the T-Rail design was implemented to make sure that the ASA never came detached from the frame. That was our primary concern. From that point the development moved to deciding what would be the weak link, and how we could ensure with most certainty that it could deform to accommodate a critical impact without the tank ever becoming separated (either at the tank end, or so that the hose becomes the only link between tank and gun) from the grip and body of the gun. We played around with a separate piece between the ASA and the bottom of the grip, but we could not make it a size such that it did not effect the aesthetics/feel of the gun and yet accommodate the full absorption of a major impact.
Add into that we need to sacrifice the lowest cost item. The body is the most expensive item in the gun by several orders of magnitude, so me wanted to make sure that that NEVER got damaged (see some of the early SL66 egos that got crashed like this one here and you will see the body is warped and cannot be salvaged, meaning several hundred dollars at cost in the trash can right there).
That left just the frame to work with.
Now I am not vain enough to say that I got the Factor of Safety (FOS) in the frame 100% correct. Maybe it could be stronger and still be the critical fail point? But, as a company we are 100% happy with the results that the design delivers. We have had players come to us with smashed out teeth, broken ribs, broken collar bones, dislocated shoulders, all from bad dives. We are confident that with a different design those players could be looking at much more serious injuries from the gun, tank or worse. A new frame, maybe (in very rare occasions) a new board, and the gun is up and running at zero cost to the customer and a manageable cost to us.
This is what they are designed to prevent:
/end discussion on PE frames not being designed to bend.
I had a real rant, then I decided to not post it. Instead I will simply say that we all have freedom of choice. Some of us choose one marker/product, some choose another, none of us is made superior as a result of our choice.
Guys trot out this statement about PE frames bending as if an Ego or Geo folds in half if you look at it wrong. This is the same sort of easy generalization and hyperbole that usually denotes the sort of ignorance and "fanboy" devotion that you profess, so vehemently, to hate.
Because we all know there has never been a single paintball product produced with gimmicks..
If the Ego11 was in fact designed to do this, how come this "safety feature" was never included with the stats on initial release? and still isnt?
Because it's not safe to expose your hand to broken sharp metal..
Players would rather have a gun that still works after a failed dive..
PE has replaced countless grip frames and boards over the years, and I bet if you asked them, those players who did core samples are damn glad the design works as intended.
Either you are just trolling, or you are mentally retarded. Any person with a normal IQ would read the quotes I posted and admit they were mistaken.
PE has replaced countless grip frames and boards over the years, and I bet if you asked them, those players who did core samples are damn glad the design works as intended.
Either you are just trolling, or you are mentally retarded. Any person with a normal IQ would read the quotes I posted and admit they were mistaken.
I will re:quote you and jack wood, so maybe you could enlighten me on the subject of this arguement; that this "safety feature" (or crumple zone) was soley designed to prevent injuries due to failed dives by reducing impact on the players body.
Quote:
The year before last we made a conscious decision as a company to take a look at the dovetail ASA/frame interface point. Through 05 and 06 we had a lot of incidents of people tearing the ASA off the dovetail mount during "accidents" (usually occurring during diving manoeuvres!). This destroyed the frame interface and the ASA and we ended up replacing 2 parts for people, the frame and the ASA. On top of that we had several cases of the hosing pulling out of the fittings after such an incident and the tank/hose flying around.
When we started to look at this when we started on the 07 design we decided that what we felt was best for us, and best from a safety point of view, was to have one sacrificial part, but have it so that that one part kept the tank and the gun body/grip together.
the T-Rail design was implemented to make sure that the ASA never came detached from the frame. That was our primary concern. From that point the development moved to deciding what would be the weak link, and how we could ensure with most certainty that it could deform to accommodate a critical impact without the tank ever becoming separated (either at the tank end, or so that the hose becomes the only link between tank and gun) from the grip and body of the gun. We played around with a separate piece between the ASA and the bottom of the grip, but we could not make it a size such that it did not effect the aesthetics/feel of the gun and yet accommodate the full absorption of a major impact.Add into that we need to sacrifice the lowest cost item. The body is the most expensive item in the gun by several orders of magnitude, so me wanted to make sure that that NEVER got damaged (see some of the early SL66 egos that got crashed like this one here and you will see the body is warped and cannot be salvaged, meaning several hundred dollars at cost in the trash can right there).
Now I am not vain enough to say that I got the Factor of Safety (FOS) in the frame 100% correct. Maybe it could be stronger and still be the critical fail point? But, as a company we are 100% happy with the results that the design delivers. We have had players come to us with smashed out teeth, broken ribs, broken collar bones, dislocated shoulders, all from bad dives. We are confident that with a different design those players could be looking at much more serious injuries from the gun, tank or worse. A new frame, maybe (in very rare occasions) a new board, and the gun is up and running at zero cost to the customer and a manageable cost to us.
The design was to keep the parts that need replacing to a minimum while keeping the tank from becoming a projectile, that's the safety feature.
The last parts in red because I would further like to emphasize the fact that Jack himself states it's not flawless and people still get injured.
So instead of "designing" crumple safety zone features why not fix the asa issue by bulking it up? It works for every other company.. with or without injury, atleast you're still playing because your gun isnt broken.. by design
i see a lot of people arguing here, but as a field owner i see it this way.
i run a field, we have been in business for 10+ years.
over the years i have seen around 20(+-10%) eclipse frames bend at my field. (including 1 a week for the last 3 weeks) I have seen one vice frame bend, and ZERO other guns.....
The point of this story is of the 1000+ core samples i have seen happen at my field, nobody has ever broken an arm, rib, tank or anything.... one or two dudes sprained their shoulder but thats about it.
I see what PE is doing trying to be safe, but id much rather have a gun that is not ever going to bend. REMEMBER if you are falling let go of your gun. while paintball is fun, hands and wrists are vital to working and life...
__________________ Check out the VANCOUVER PAINTBALL LEAGUE by clicking here! BURNT/AMBUSHPAINTBALL.COM/JOINT FORCE
SPONSORS: AMBUSH / MACDEV / EMPIRE / PBRACK / PAINTBALLGEAR.CA
PLANET ECLIPSE / DYE / CP / VANGUARD / PROPHECY CERTIFIED TECH & BOB LONG ENTHUSIAST + i can fix anything that shoots
I may not be a professional player but i make a living playing paintball.
__________________
"Yet it brings back repressed memories of my institutionalized fondness of the archaic, yet hyper-organized paradox that is my beautiful US Navy. The duality of the state of my mind manifests itself in a cringing smile. It is the purveyance of confusion on how being micro-managed can have no real discernible goal or direction. Yet we as the body of the US Navy somehow, someway achieve perfection out of an utter circus that exist at every command, never really realizing or pinpointing how this perfection could have ever been achieved. HOO YAH! US Navy!"
Brules come on you have to be smarter than that. If Jack Woods pissed and you and said it was raining would you thank Jack for the rain or be upset you were pissed on?
You have to be able to see that they are putting a spin on something. Dye frames bend too because they are thin and light, dye doesn't try and act like its technology. Frames bend its not the end of the world, but its absurd that you can believe the BS they are feeding you.
From my experience Aliens need a lot of maintenance(and repair).Much more than my geo2 but I am not going to get into any arguments about Aliens in this thread though.
So now your argument is invalid.
The fact is Eclipse guns have a proven history of being rock solid and have taken abuse that few other guns could take and still keep shooting. I have seen quit a few "look at what the previous owner did" threads about mistreated Eclipse guns that still keep on shooting. I'm personally interested in this new GEO and look forward to hearing more info on it when eclipse finally spills the beans.
I have had my indy since october of last year and I have yet to lube it as per the suggestion in the manual of lubing once or twice a year. Over the chrono It was +-2 and still shot over a case from my 68/4500.
I like guns from quite a few brands and have owned quite a few PE guns over the last 3 years including an SL8R. However lets not lie for the sake of trying to appear knowledgeable on an internet forum.
As for this new GEO stuff, come on and spill the beans PE!
Hopefully not taking this thread too off topic
But 27 pages and really no info on this speculative geo
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanR
The design was to keep the parts that need replacing to a minimum while keeping the tank from becoming a projectile, that's the safety feature.
The last parts in red because I would further like to emphasize the fact that Jack himself states it's not flawless and people still get injured.
I could be misreading you here, but those injuries are a result from not having a bendable frame, and people diving, their gun staying solid, and all the force of the impact going into their body and resulting in injuries. I don't see anywhere where Jack states people are still getting those injuries after the newer frames.
Quote:
So instead of "designing" crumple safety zone features why not fix the asa issue by bulking it up? It works for every other company.. with or without injury, atleast you're still playing because your gun isnt broken.. by design
You could just as easily say "why not use the crumple safety feature, because while your gun may be damaged, you don't end up with a broken shoulder/collar bone from a really bad dive"....that's PE's argument anyways. I've never seen such injuries happen so idk.
More discussion of the frames dissipating injuries in this thread http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...6#post72054017
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatoRockwell
A friend of mine 2 years back took a core sample with his dm & broke his collar bone.
Ive personally seen the same thing happen with an ego, frame snapped and the only injury the guy sustained was to his pride.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanR
If the Ego11 was in fact designed to do this, how come this "safety feature" was never included with the stats on initial release? and still isnt?
Do any guns list their safety features? Do any other guns even have any out of the ordinary safety features? I don't know, that's why I'm asking......I don't recall seeing any.
Quote:
Because it's not safe to expose your hand to broken sharp metal..
Well the frame is suppose to bend, not snap in half (don't know much about metal, so I don't know how much give/stretch it has before it breaks though). But in these pictures I don't seen any visible jagged edges (although some could be covered under the grips). Although I have seen people cut their fingers on their snatch grips (not on egos) so it probably doesn't take much.
(purple ego was bent on purpose, not from a dive, i believe).
More pics of red gun in here http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2525433
[IMG]http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc244/IanThird/whereisyourgodnow.jpg
__________________
A nickel-plate is my fate, my medicine is the ganga.
I've had two terrible dives in the 10+ years I've been playing. One w/a Dm9 one w/geo2. Geo2 took a core sample and the frame + board were destroyed, no damage to me what so ever. If I had to guess my arm and shoulder would be injured if the frame didn't bend. Dm9 took no harm in the dive however the snatch grip took a chunk out of me & almost hit a semi-new tattoo :o and effed up my wrist.
P.E. replaced the frame for free with a little more hassle than I'd like to believe. But hey it was obviously my fault and didn't really expect a free replacement.
I'll be happily shooting P.E. guns for the rest of my years
And to get back on point, new geo2 looks nice, curious if there are any significant upgrades to the engine.
/end discussion on PE frames not being designed to bend.
in that vid. the tank reg snaps and that's what sends the tank flying.. I had the ASA snap off of my creed on a bad dive, asa came detached from the macroline, and it didn't takeoff like a rocket. I was able to safely pick it up and let all the air out withing a few seconds
and why couldnt PE make it so that the barrel snaps off instead of the frame bending so the tip stays in the ground while you can move forward... keeps the whole gun in one operational piece aside from having a barrel tip.... and is cheaper to replace
PE makes fantastic stuff and I cant wait to see what the new geo looks like, but i'm still on the fence about the whole safety feature things
No Upping threads. If you have something to say, please do, but don't post in the thread just to take it to the top of the forum.
Do not post "1st post", "1st", "First post" or anything similar (or with any other number) at any point in a thread, even if you post a comment too. It is really annoying and it will result in a ban.
If you don't like something, say why instead of just calling it ugly, lame, gay or any other name. If it is old, simply post a link or report the post with a link to the older News thread.
Please don't post links for places to buy items. That encourages stores, sponsored players and other people to do it and spam the site.
so hard when fanboys really think that a frame that was simply milled too thin was designed to break in order to prevent from injury rather then cut down on weight.. 
