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Old 11-14-2011, 03:19 PM #1
Abnmp78
 
 
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Anti-tank mines

No field I play on allows them. Curious about if they are practical and/ or playable. For me to be realistic the mine should be heavy( picture a 15 lb. Barbell weight) a card is attached so when destroyed a ref takes the card and the mine must be returned to the general to be reactivated.
I see a problem as a ref needs to be around it while active to assess damage.
How do you eliminate one? Nerf, paintball or can a player remove it?
Now I have read where mines can only immobilize or can kill.
I'm looking for input from players who have actually used these.
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:23 PM #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abnmp78 View Post
No field I play on allows them. Curious about if they are practical and/ or playable. For me to be realistic the mine should be heavy( picture a 15 lb. Barbell weight) a card is attached so when destroyed a ref takes the card and the mine must be returned to the general to be reactivated.
I see a problem as a ref needs to be around it while active to assess damage.
How do you eliminate one? Nerf, paintball or can a player remove it?
Now I have read where mines can only immobilize or can kill.
I'm looking for input from players who have actually used these.
As a tanker, i have played against these. They were plywood discs with a wire attached. If the tank got within 10 feet of it, the tank was destroyed. They couldnt be destroyed by gun fire or nerf hit. There should probably be an engineer card available to disarm them.
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Old 11-14-2011, 10:43 PM #3
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I would like to see them. I agree there should be a engineere card issued to use this type of weapon. I am for more realism. Of course limit the how many you can use. We would not want the same problem we have with the AT GUN infestation we have at certain fields.
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Old 11-15-2011, 10:57 AM #4
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Never played with or against anti tank mines. Played anti tank for years and run a walking tank. Generally, this is something NEW to tankers and Producers. It has to be EASY to administer by the game and refs. Less manpower involved, the better. The honor system generally works and especially in the tanking community. Thus they need to know what to expect on the field of battle and how to interact with it. It will be up to them to adapt.

Rules for Special Weaponry vary a LOT from field to field. If you want the field to change how they play, or allow something NEW, you need to describe what you want to do and how the other side can have countermeasures to deal with it. Otherwise, the field will be hearing a LOT of whining from the other side if they have NO means for countermeasures. They do not like unhappy customers. For example, only a role player can deploy and only an engineer can deactivate.

Quote:
Curious about if they are practical and/ or playable. For me to be realistic the mine should be heavy( picture a 15 lb. Barbell weight) a card is attached so when destroyed a ref takes the card and the mine must be returned to the general to be reactivated.
I see a problem as a ref needs to be around it while active to assess damage.
How do you eliminate one? Nerf, paintball or can a player remove it?
Now I have read where mines can only immobilize or can kill.
In general terms, the more toys on the field, the more fun we have.

I have spent considerable time designing anti personnel mines the several criteria in mind. The goal is for the mine to be something MORE than a booby trap but to actually deploy a functional minefield that impairs the enemy's ability ot move. A 300 foot long perimeter defense around our HQ.

So far, I've been unsuccessfui but they might apply to a single use anti tank weapon.

The hurdles to making an anti personel minefield is COST. FEW people or even teams would want to make the investment to reach that 300 foot goal.

My goal was for it to be home made for UNDER $50 and simple enough to built that the design can be replicated without a lot of tools or skill so that a team could duplicate the build easily and pool them together to make a functional minefield. So far can't get there on the unit cost and simplicity to build.

Another problem is you have to babysit the minefield and rearm/replace spent mines. A lot of players will not want to do that but maybe an engineer or demolitions role players could do that. They would all have to be simular enough to rearm without a lot of stuff or training.

To address the cost issue more, one solution is to increase the KILLING RADIUS of the mine. Instead of a 10 foot radius, at $50 each, how about a 50 foot radius for $50 each? To set up a 300 foot HQ defense perimeter, that would cost $250 for 6 mines instead of $1500 for 30 mines. But that is a whole different kind of mine and the costs per unit would likely go up.

I decided NOT to conceal the mines. Rather make them visiible, paint them RED with black lettering "MINE" on it. And make a bunch of identical decoy mines that look just like them. All they have to do is BELEIVE they are REAL to be effective as a perimeter defense.

Now to get back on topic, the same principals apply except you don't need to build more than one to have fun playing with them. The unit cost is less of a hurdle.

First, lets address the fields that don't allow you to play with them.

First you have to play between the lines of the published rules. Be a bit creative and let the Producer in on it before the game so they can give it a thumbs up or down. Then you decide which fields to spend your money at.

Playing between the lines of the published rules?

For example:

If they don't allow "MINES" then do not call your anti tank device a 'Mine'.
They allow AT devices so call yours an AT device. Use whatever name they use. It is just a different KIND of AT device they allow.

Where is it written that a AT player has to HOLD the AT weapon? It could be deployed ON the road or at the SIDE of the road and remotely detonated by wire or wireless. Hard to defend against it if you can't find the guy holding the trigger. It could PLAY like an IED that s remotely activated. Wirelss or wired.

Where is it written that the AT player has to be the one to activate the AT weapon? Closest thing is only the AT player has a AT role card. No other player can activate it. If it is triggered automatically when the tank passes, then only the AT player with the AT role card can turn the SWITCH on. (and presumably an enemy engineer could turn the switch OFF.)

Where is it written that an AT player can use only ONE Anti Tank weapon at a time? They just ASSUME nobody would want to haul more than one around. Make it impossible to drive around a mine by deploying 3 of them. across the road.

Where is it written that you can't deploy FAKE anti tank devices?

What is the purpose of a mine? Kill the opponent. But also SLOW them Down, Stop their advance, Make them go elsewhere. Disrupt their plan, tactical timing, etc. Since MOST paintball mission have a TIME deadline, FAKE MINES would do the same for a while anyway.

Three plywood disks set across the road painted red with "Anti Tank MINE" in large black letters on it could do WHAT to a tank? You might hear, "What the h......... is this?" It might stop for sure. Make them get out the rules and look for info about 'Mines'. Make it easier to hit it with a REAL RPG. A tank player might exit the tank to remove them and get shot thus essentially requiring the tank to be without a gunner, driver, etc and have to reinsert with the dead player. They could call an engineer to remove it and wait or not use that road and go elsewhere. It would CHANGE what they planned to do or Slow Down what they planned to do. You could deploy them so they would try to drive around it on the side of the road. thus an easy toss for a satchel charge. Of course, it would be a good idea to let your tank players in on the fun so they can ignore them.

And my all time favorite paintball tactic. "If you can't beat them, CONFUSE them.."
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Last edited by Boom Master : 11-15-2011 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 11-15-2011, 12:12 PM #5
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As a tanker, i have played against these. They were plywood discs with a wire attached. If the tank got within 10 feet of it, the tank was destroyed.

Did you enjoy the challange?



Two things I would do is limit the mines by giving the general the mines. Each starts with x many.
Second is to make the mines heavy. AT mines weight a lot and we don't need a player carry several. Realisticly one per person is the most. So if the General wanted 3 mines at a location it would take 3 players plus security.
An engineer should be able to remove the mine.
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Old 11-15-2011, 05:55 PM #6
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You guys got me thinking when you talked about using a wire attached to the mine to trigger it. I went and bought some of those party poppers that shoot confetti and filled it with the paint from three paintballs. It shot about 5 feet and made about a 4 inch circular splatter I'm going to experiment more but I'm sure they would shoot about 10 feet .
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Old 11-16-2011, 09:22 AM #7
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I bought a surplus key remote used for turning car alarms off and on. $15

Wasn't building a mine or IED with it but could be used for that. A key remote has enough range.
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Old 11-16-2011, 07:27 PM #8
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I have played at two fields where they use mines or barracades to stop or slow down tanks. At Fulda Gap they use land mines. I have never hit one but I think when hit getting run over they spray paint and thats a kill just like a rocket hit. I played at a field in Md earlier this year and they had barracades that blocked roads. The only way to get thru them was engineer had to move them. Had some interesting battles at these points.


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Old 11-17-2011, 09:09 AM #9
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Yes, mines don't have to be real or look like mines. The barricades would suffice. As long as it makes the game interesting, tactical in nature, and makes both side have to THINK about what they are doing, it is good for the game.

We planned a game for the Planet of the GrApes where the RIVER dividing the Forbidden Zone and Ape territory was just a tape line. The Humans can swim, the Apes can't. There were gaps in the tape line where it was 'shallow enough' for the Apes/Humans to wade across. Essentially choke points. A pair of the gaps were at the opposite side of field boundary. where any defenders of the choke point might get bored and leave. Had to walk only, no running but can use their markers while wading across the shallow areas. If the humans wanted to "swim", they had to put their barrel covers on and WALK across the tapeline. They couldn't use their markers while 'swimming'.

Since then, I always thought it would be interesting to just deploy a tape line on the ground to mark the boundary of an imaginary minefield. If you set foot inside it, you died. Not to say you couldn't jump over it if it was narrow enough.

Only engineers could deploy or remove them. Engineers from either side could remove them and re deploy them so it wouldn't be a good idea to leave it undefended or vunerable to capture. Each side would be given the same amount of tape. If the engineer was shot and they "searched the body" he would have to give up his tape for the minefield. It might not be a good idea to carry ALL of it. If they issued an entire roll to each side for the weekend.

It could be used for perimeter defense or as a tactical tool on the field of battle. You could secure areas with a lot of cover in it and leave the open ground for a few defenders to control You could move it up the field to control vital tactical areas, air fields, bases, etc. Make choke points. An engineer could have the option of moving the tape line essentially disarming a section. He could move one side to touch the other side so players can jump across the two tapes. We pondered whether or not an engineer can break the tape. Basically decided YES if it was the tape issued to your side but not the other sides tape. It could be gathered up or moved only if it was the other sides tape.

It occured to me to answer the question of HOW WELL would my RPG shoot a roll of toilet paper out of a 4" barrel. If you shot a stream of TP across the tape lines, you could "blow up the mines" and clear a path for 5 feet on either side of the TP line. I suppose you could throw it by hand as well by an engineer to punch a hole in the minefield for an attack.

No reason you couldn't use a tape line across a tank road just like they did the barricades on the tank road.

Tape is cheap compared to actually building/buying land mines.

Engineers generally do not have a LOT to do as a role player. This could keep one or two busy all weekend.
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Last edited by Boom Master : 11-17-2011 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 11-17-2011, 03:52 PM #10
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I was thinking of a barbell weight. Use a Pvc pipe in the center for a tilt rod. Tank runs over it then the same results as getting hit by a nerf. Each General is given x number at the begining. A kill card is with each mine. Only eng. can implace or remove a mine. When a tank is hit the ref takes the kill card. When the mine and kill card are returned to the general then the mine is reactivated.
I like the tape idea. Tape can be barbed wire. Once emplaced it can't be crossed. Only an eng can implace and/ or remove it. Players can not cross the wire.
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Old 11-17-2011, 05:17 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abnmp78 View Post
I was thinking of a barbell weight. Use a Pvc pipe in the center for a tilt rod. Tank runs over it then the same results as getting hit by a nerf. Each General is given x number at the begining. A kill card is with each mine. Only eng. can implace or remove a mine. When a tank is hit the ref takes the kill card. When the mine and kill card are returned to the general then the mine is reactivated.
I like the tape idea. Tape can be barbed wire. Once emplaced it can't be crossed. Only an eng can implace and/ or remove it. Players can not cross the wire.
Very good idea. Not complicted and very cheap to make. LOL
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Old 11-20-2011, 10:43 AM #12
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The ground clearance for motorized tanks vary a LOT. Pickups to Lawnmowers. Why wouldn't they just drive around it or stop?

Maybe if you attach some monofilament to it to pull over the PVC pipe on a light plywood stand. One on each side of the road and could be hidden by a tree, camo, etc. If they were 10 foot high sections, they would probably swing down and smak the tank letting them know they just died. No refs required. The idea would work for manually activated IEDs as well.

Most fields allow 6 pound test mono for trip wires because they will break of someone walks/ runs through it. Might allow something heavier for IEDs if they are lying on the ground covered with dirt and leaves.

Barbed wire................ D Day uses that concept and the Allies had to screw their PVC pipe bangalodiers or whatever together to get them through the tape line and blow an opening in the barbed wire. Atlantic Wall section I believe.
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Last edited by Boom Master : 11-20-2011 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:11 PM #13
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Dale- for mines a simple and inexpensive one is a short 2" PVC pipe attach a trip wire to a grenade and place it inside. They play pulls the wire the grenade comes out and covers a 10' radius. You could even go with a bigger grenade and cover it with a bike innertube to increase pressure. Nice to have a mixture of types and methods.
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:25 PM #14
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http://www.x7og.net/alternative-weap...-mine-how.html

Link for AP mine build
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Old 11-24-2011, 11:49 AM #15
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The grenade and trip wire is that most fields won't let you install a trip wire above waist high where you would get a better kill radius. The limitation of 6 pound test mono makes using a Squad Buster very unreliable at $5 a pop.

Ziptie the grenade to a small diameter tree and run the trip wire.

Did recall making a trip mine out of surgical tubing that was inserted into PVC pipe and stuck into the ground so that it would spray UP and around. Used a cather bag drain clip for a pull trigger instead of having the standard ball bearing inside the tubing. You could run two trip wires in opposite directions but had to have enough slack in them that it could pull and trigger in either direction.

May have been an earlier version of the line above from Abnmp78. That is the clip/trigger.
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Old 11-24-2011, 12:30 PM #16
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Tank mines could be fun. but in limited quantities and with proper rules.

I dont like the "tank is dead if it gets within 10 feet of it" for a roadside bomb sure but not a "mine" whoever made that rule needs to go to engineer school.

you should have to run it over. maybee even set it off if its one that goes off. you should also be allowed to disable it or mark it so the tank driver can avoid it.Again more realism fun, less gayness


you could easily make one that sets off a 12 gram and some baby powder.
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Old 11-24-2011, 12:32 PM #17
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this has inspired me to make a decent mine. Im doing to develop a cheap easy to use teller style tank mine this winter
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Old 11-25-2011, 10:01 AM #18
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The trip wire is attached to a homemade grenade. A clip is around the retaining ring. When the wire is pulled the ring comes off. Gredade starts to squirt. If enough pressure the grenade will fall out and spin like a regular grenade.

AT Mine. Simple- Bottle with hole in top. Place inside a box. Tank runs over the pressure from the tank shoots the baby powder out.
Or make a 12 gm pipe (Similiar to a LAW) with the ball valve handle extended. Fill with baby powder. Tank moves the lever and the CO2 shoot the powder out. It is only good for tanks going in one direction and must be anchored firmly.
But if the fields control the number ao AT mines and also the barbed wire tape would add a lot of fun to the game.
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Old 12-08-2011, 04:09 PM #19
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Worked on some mines.
1. A 15 lb weight. With a 3/4" Pvc pipe in the center. This is a tilt rod mine. A kill card is attached to the bottom. An Eng impaces the mine with the kill card. Inserts the PVC pipe and then adds a PVC cap to the tube. The mine is armed. A tank goes over it ref assess a kill as long as kill card is under it. It can be disarmed by an ENG using the reverse process. Take cap off, take tube out then can move the mine. Simple thing but requires a ref to know where it is.
2. made a multi purpose mine. Basically a ball valve launcher. The Air tank is a old 20 oz CO2 tank that I took the pin out and widened the hole. Uses a bike valve to fill. Running 70 psi. Haven't really tried other pressure levels. Also didn't try to use a sprinkler valve. Can be use in four ways
a. Tilt rod- Fill with baby powder. Tank hits rod enough to release air- powder shoots out signaling a kill.Is one directional since the valve moves in only one way
b.Fill with paint- A claymore- went 8 yds with about a 45 degree spread.
c. Add a 1 1/2" tube ( I had a threaded adapter to make changing easier). I make a nerf dart out of pipe insulation. A 6' piece costs under $2. Added fins and a cap. 6" long so each one is under .50. The Dart goes about 10 yds. Can go farther but need to have a high angle. I figured 10 yds is good enough to kill a tank. This is fired by command det. attach a string to the handle and pull.
d. Claymore with paintballs. Same as above but fill with a paper towel- add PBs and fire. They PBs do break.
I'm planing on using a rat trap to move the handle to make a trip wire for it. But need to see if it move it enough to work. The nerf arrow doesn't require a lot of force.

So some ideas. If you aren't going with the A model then could use PVC for the build. Much cheaper. I wouldn't use it for the tilt rod since a tank may run over it. As is would be under $30. I just used stuff I had lying around.
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Old 12-08-2011, 07:05 PM #20
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My goal was for it to be home made for UNDER $50 and simple enough to built that the design can be replicated without a lot of tools or skill so that a team could duplicate the build easily and pool them together to make a functional minefield. So far can't get there on the unit cost and simplicity to build.
ever consider cutting big sheets of plywood into circles and spray painting them? Id say you could get quite a bit for $50
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Old 03-14-2012, 08:29 AM #21
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I was thinking, just kinda pondering really, about making cheap and easy to use AT mines. I might start developing a spring loaded wood based AT mine. Tank rolls over pressure plate (IED style), and spring activates arm that snaps up, probably with a Red Flag or some other method of marking, that would alert Tank Ref that the tank just rolled over a kill marker. Probably woudl wire some sort of sound device to it as well, just to draw attention to when it went off..


Hmmm, the cogs are turning...
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