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Old 02-22-2012, 10:28 AM #22
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What's the difference between high end and mid range guns? The price and maybe a few details.

Look at the Etek 3 AM and the Ego. Both come with tools, case, 2 piece barrel and HPR/LPR. Ummmmm...So what WAS the difference? Oh yeah the OLED display rather than an LED. Get an APE or 7E board and buy more paint for the Etek!

Let's compare a NT11 to a Reflex...same case, same barrel, both have eye pipes (which blow), same tools, same lube, same reg, nearly identical bolt....Hmmmmm What WAS the difference again. Ummmmm price? Did I miss anything? DM11? OOOOOOOH an LPR!!! Now that's worth the extra money. NOT!

The difference between most mids and high's is not very great and often times not worth the price difference. (IMHO)
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:02 AM #23
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Originally Posted by rkenders View Post
What's the difference between high end and mid range guns? The price and maybe a few details.

Look at the Etek 3 AM and the Ego. Both come with tools, case, 2 piece barrel and HPR/LPR. Ummmmm...So what WAS the difference? Oh yeah the OLED display rather than an LED. Get an APE or 7E board and buy more paint for the Etek!
You forgot Customer Service. It's the same whether you spent 500.00 or 1500.00.
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:54 PM #24
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There is no one right answer to this debate. It all comes down to personal preference. There are some who want the bells n whistles on the high ends. And other want or care that the mid range guns may or may not have the bells n whistles. Example= boards. We have seen guys swap out boards in high ends as well as mids. Same goes for the regs, barrels, bolts, grips feednecks, asa, etc. You name the part on any gun and someone probably has upgraded it. Like I said in the beginning it is All personal preference. If you want to spend the extra for the high end. Go for it. If you would rather spend less on a mid range. Go for it. But in the end find a gun that you like and fits your needs/wants. N go play.
A newbie with a high end is still just a newbie. I will take a seasoned player in proven gear over a newer player with the latest n greatest. Apologies for the rant.
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:50 AM #25
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Are you kidding me?


You realize that a geo and a G3 are the exact same thing right?
People put aftermarket parts because they think they need aftermarket parts, thinking that it will "make it shoot like a high end," as if a paintball cares how much money you paid for your gun.

Truthfully, a many mid range guns will shoot the same or better than any $1500 gun. People talk about LCD screens and on/off ASAs and such, those are all found on low end as well. For example, the Bob long guns only have one button with no LED and Dyes guns have two buttons with LEDs. For $500 the dangerous power fusion FX has far more features than any of the markers hundreds of dollars more.
The difference comes down to price gouging, companies know that if they price their ego at 1250 or their matrix at 1300 the idiots will actually buy it because people think cost=quality and never bother to look at anything else.
When it comes to buying anything, you'll find you can get a lot more for your money from companies trying to build a following than you can from companies with a mob gathered around willing to pay top dollar for any chunk of aluminum they throw at them.
Did you know the Luxe and the shocker are the EXACT SAME GUN? Just one talks and the other chirps.
One of these is a shocker bolt and the other is a luxe bolt, can you tell them apart?


It's not for lack of trying, it is just paintball technology has become so advanced that it has become easy to make a high performance gun for very cheap, so, to justify the price companies have to try and add cool annodizing jobs and little bells and whistles to keep people thinking the fortune they spent on the product they got was worth it.
You realize the shocker was a high end gun when they made it, right? Also, the FX is a completely inferior FASOR design and could certainly have much more of the metal cut off the body/frame to make it lighter weight.

That being said, the extra price generally isn't so much in the shot quality as it is in the smaller bit. Paying the high-end price, you will generally get better packaging, more money will be spent on the ergonomics of the gun (IE shaving more off of the frame), more intensely milled bodies (milling time is a big expense), and the little bits are usually already upgraded such as nicer barrels, on/offs, regulators, etc.

If you're on a budget, mid-ends will shoot perfectly, and keep up with high-ends without a problem. If you have the little bit of extra cash for the high end, go for it. They are just a little bit nicer looking/feeling most of the time, but you won't notice any difference on the field.

Lastly to those who said they see mid-ends always broken down at the field, that would be because the owners are usually newer players. 99% of problems with markers are user error, that goes for both high, mid and low-ends.

Edit: And saying the g3 and geo are the exact same thing is absolutely moronic. Have you ever held or looked at the internals of either? They function on unbelievably different operating systems.
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:05 AM #26
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If Dye DM6, Dm7, Dm8, Dm9, Dm10 use the same solenoid, and if you upgrade the Board and Bolt, wouldnt they all pretty much be the same?

Example...

I have a DM6 with Oled Tadao Board, TechT L7 Bolt, and Same Solenoid as DM10, shouldnt they be the same quietness, efficientcy, and accuracy.

I have been wondering this for a long time, I do realize there is a little weight difference and the eye pipe started in Dm8. But really whats the gain except your ego!
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Old 02-29-2012, 08:49 AM #27
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o man I dont know why I am posting but here goes. Ok from a performance standpoint, all price aside, the highest end guns perform better than mid end guns. Shoot a drone dx and a clone vx and tell me you dont feel a difference, same with the etha and geo 2.1. As small and as worthless as you may think it is, there is a difference. Now once we acknowledge that small difference, we have to admit that to some people this small difference is worth that price, perhaps not to you but to someone it is. So, even though you may not agree with spending that much on a small difference, the price point is fixed this way for a reason.

Next you have to look at the company structure, planet eclipse rides on 2 main platforms. How many 06-7-8...egos are still out there being sold, does pe make any money on them? nope they have 1 shot to make income. Mid range guns start at a low price so the resale isnt really a factor for them, these guns usually get passed around less and end up being stored in a gearbag.

Lastly, and this is a part that often gets overlooked is research and development. when was the last mid end gun that had industry changing parts. Mid range guns are designed to be refined, cheaper high end guns, taking whats out there and making it available to the masses. High end guns take the brunt of the R&D budget to try and change the game.
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:49 AM #28
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Lastly, and this is a part that often gets overlooked is research and development. when was the last mid end gun that had industry changing parts.
Ion. The Ion completely changed the game. To play tournament paintball, you had either really expensive guns, or cheap crap guns. Sure, you could argue that the Impulse did it first, with a decent gun that could be upgraded. But the Ion was a tournament gun out of the box that was priced at the upper end of low-end guns. I'm not saying it was the best, but it opened a whole new market. Now there are tournament guns galore in the $400 to $600 price range!

I don't know of any other improvement that changed the game that much since then. Electronics (and then eyes) are probably the biggest ones before that, and semi-auto before that.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:03 AM #29
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Ion. The Ion completely changed the game. To play tournament paintball, you had either really expensive guns, or cheap crap guns. Sure, you could argue that the Impulse did it first, with a decent gun that could be upgraded. But the Ion was a tournament gun out of the box that was priced at the upper end of low-end guns. I'm not saying it was the best, but it opened a whole new market. Now there are tournament guns galore in the $400 to $600 price range!

I don't know of any other improvement that changed the game that much since then. Electronics (and then eyes) are probably the biggest ones before that, and semi-auto before that.
But the parts themselves weren't industry changing were they? They were just more affordable than ever before. Correct me if I am wrong please as I am not 100% up on my ion history. Is cheaper price a technological improvement?
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:17 PM #30
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i mainly go for mid/high end because of how light and how useful it is to use. Pm8's are one of the best spool valve guns dye has ever made imo. Price, construction, shot feel, and tuning range everything makes this gun amazing. Lots of people buy a dm12 mainly because 1. more efficiency 2. Softer shot to paint 3. cool new features like the reg swivel or tool-less bolt and grips. I say it's not worth spending an extra 700$ for those. Upgrade the pm8 bolt, and get some kila pop locks for your grips, and you have yourself basically a dm12. I don't see the point in spending that much cash just to have the most updated gun. it's like apple products. there's not too much of a difference, except for the price. Not worth it imo, i would go for a mid to high end. And around 2008/9. I myself have been shooting a dm9 ever since it came out and i haven't found a reason to upgrade it. Amazingly smooth and consistent when tuned, and soft as hell on paint. Great gun in general.
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Old 03-01-2012, 03:50 PM #31
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But the parts themselves weren't industry changing were they? They were just more affordable than ever before. Correct me if I am wrong please as I am not 100% up on my ion history. Is cheaper price a technological improvement?
In some ways yes you could say that due the parts being cheaper it did change the industry. I mean look take the crappy designed ION eyes for example they work 100%. they are not easy to clean or take apart but they rarely ever break. I'm still using a set of eyes that have been through 2 other guns before mine from a company that crashed before SP did and they still perform great. And when they break its 5 or less dollars to find more. Reliability is rarely becoming the issue its the bells and whistles and the fact when you need to call a tech someone will answer. I mean strait to the point mid ends put paint down field consistently isn't that the point do the sport? Its the player that makes the game not the marker.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:02 AM #32
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In some ways yes you could say that due the parts being cheaper it did change the industry. I mean look take the crappy designed ION eyes for example they work 100%. they are not easy to clean or take apart but they rarely ever break. I'm still using a set of eyes that have been through 2 other guns before mine from a company that crashed before SP did and they still perform great. And when they break its 5 or less dollars to find more. Reliability is rarely becoming the issue its the bells and whistles and the fact when you need to call a tech someone will answer. I mean strait to the point mid ends put paint down field consistently isn't that the point do the sport? Its the player that makes the game not the marker.
I see your point, it advanced the sport as a whole and really did wonders for the level of play. I just see it as making the parts affordable vs creating new parts. I dont really have an example of this off the top of my head, basically (and this is a loose example) is the g6r better because it advanced the possibility of efficiency or is the Gog line better because it brings some of the already present pieces of paintball to a more affordable level?

To me advancement of the product is much more important but I will not argue that the ion changes the industry.
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Old 03-02-2012, 06:07 PM #33
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But the parts themselves weren't industry changing were they? They were just more affordable than ever before. Correct me if I am wrong please as I am not 100% up on my ion history. Is cheaper price a technological improvement?
The parts themselves weren't all that revolutionary, but the Ion as a whole was. But I can't really think of a single gun that changed the sport THAT much. Sure, electronics changed the sport dramatically, but they came slowly. Angel's COPS was a great idea, but eyes became the standard (first with reflective, then break beam). Pneumatics changed electronic guns pretty well, but they had been around for a while as well, just integrated with the electronics.

But just because a gun tries something possibly revolutionary, doesn't mean it is the best. Take the COPS for example, it had its faults, but was big in being an paintball detecting sensor.
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:34 AM #34
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The parts themselves weren't all that revolutionary, but the Ion as a whole was. But I can't really think of a single gun that changed the sport THAT much. Sure, electronics changed the sport dramatically, but they came slowly. Angel's COPS was a great idea, but eyes became the standard (first with reflective, then break beam). Pneumatics changed electronic guns pretty well, but they had been around for a while as well, just integrated with the electronics.

But just because a gun tries something possibly revolutionary, doesn't mean it is the best. Take the COPS for example, it had its faults, but was big in being an paintball detecting sensor.
Agreed. But without all these small equipment advances we would still be shooting cockers (not that theres anything wrong with that) but making it cheaper does not require the r&d a financial backing of research.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:20 AM #35
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Agreed. But without all these small equipment advances we would still be shooting cockers (not that theres anything wrong with that) but making it cheaper does not require the r&d a financial backing of research.
Actually it does. It may not require R&D into how to make the technology, but it does take R&D to evaluate how much it will cost to produce it, vs. how much they can sell it for. They also have to R&D a way to actually produce the product, AND at a cheaper price.

Do you think that the Etek doesn't have any R&D behind it. Sure, it uses a lot of tested technology from older Egos, but they then have to develop a way to get it into the Etek. And when you compare the actual manufacturing costs of the Etek and Ego, I would be surprised if they weren't pretty darn close to the same number. With that being said, I can't imagine the R&D that goes into the Ego makes it so PE has to sell it for double to make the same profit.

And if you look at Ego throughout the generations, how many have been a radical change from year to year? If the Ego 5 was worth $1000 to make this revolutionary gun (which was just the offspring of a timmy and a cocker eframe), then why was the Ego6 just as expensive? Then came the Ego7, which was a bit of a change, so there could be a lot of R&D behind that, but the R&D behind the Ego8, Ego9, Ego10, Ego11 cannot be the same.

So where is that money going? Into PE's pocket, which is then going into sponsorship, which PE would consider advertising. What is going to make someone want to buy something more: a paper ad, or the fact XYZ paintball team uses it? So what I am saying is that there is PERCEIVED value. Basically, if it is thought to be worth that much money, then it is.

Here is an example of such: Smart parts put a LOT of work into the Nerve. It was going to be their flagship marker. They wanted their sponsor teams to use it, but production delays prevented that. Since they needed to get a marker into the hands of their teams, they gave them shockers. Once the Nerve was finally released, there was so much negative press about it that no one wanted to pay $1000+ for one. So SP cancelled it after a fairly short production time. The marker price dropped to $6xx then to $4xx, and was then PERCEIVED as a mid-level marker. If they had got it out on time and into their team's hands, then who knows what would have happened to it (heck, spools may not have become as popular, as the shocker really propelled spools into what they are now).

Hope this makes sense.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:50 PM #36
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Actually it does. It may not require R&D into how to make the technology, but it does take R&D to evaluate how much it will cost to produce it, vs. how much they can sell it for. They also have to R&D a way to actually produce the product, AND at a cheaper price.

Do you think that the Etek doesn't have any R&D behind it. Sure, it uses a lot of tested technology from older Egos, but they then have to develop a way to get it into the Etek. And when you compare the actual manufacturing costs of the Etek and Ego, I would be surprised if they weren't pretty darn close to the same number. With that being said, I can't imagine the R&D that goes into the Ego makes it so PE has to sell it for double to make the same profit.

And if you look at Ego throughout the generations, how many have been a radical change from year to year? If the Ego 5 was worth $1000 to make this revolutionary gun (which was just the offspring of a timmy and a cocker eframe), then why was the Ego6 just as expensive? Then came the Ego7, which was a bit of a change, so there could be a lot of R&D behind that, but the R&D behind the Ego8, Ego9, Ego10, Ego11 cannot be the same.

So where is that money going? Into PE's pocket, which is then going into sponsorship, which PE would consider advertising. What is going to make someone want to buy something more: a paper ad, or the fact XYZ paintball team uses it? So what I am saying is that there is PERCEIVED value. Basically, if it is thought to be worth that much money, then it is.

Here is an example of such: Smart parts put a LOT of work into the Nerve. It was going to be their flagship marker. They wanted their sponsor teams to use it, but production delays prevented that. Since they needed to get a marker into the hands of their teams, they gave them shockers. Once the Nerve was finally released, there was so much negative press about it that no one wanted to pay $1000+ for one. So SP cancelled it after a fairly short production time. The marker price dropped to $6xx then to $4xx, and was then PERCEIVED as a mid-level marker. If they had got it out on time and into their team's hands, then who knows what would have happened to it (heck, spools may not have become as popular, as the shocker really propelled spools into what they are now).

Hope this makes sense.
it does, and thats a really good example. Im not saying that r&d is the sole reason for a guns price, simply that companies put more money into advancing their flagship line than they spend into the mid level. then when combined with the other reasons described before these differences begin to add up.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:21 PM #37
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I like what was said earlier about the manufacturing costs being nearly the same. This makes my earlier point for me and what Rasco said about perceived value. Is there really much difference between a mid and high end gun? Sure there is as long as you perceive there is.
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Old 03-14-2012, 04:11 PM #38
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I have been playing for too many years to count but something I have noticed more than EVER lately is how similar most guns perform. I think it is mostly due to tournament and field rules (psp 12.5 for example). It doesn't take nearly as much innovation as it used to when the bps race was in full effect. We saw incredible technology jumps and guns were drastically different from one another in comparison to today. Way back when you KNEW why you were paying $1500 for that Angel instead of speculation.

This all of course is my opinion. I just purchased an axe and shot several very high end markers this weekend and was not impressed in comparison.
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