Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-02-2012, 10:32 PM #1
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Psuedo-intellectualism in Contemporary Religion

A doctor needs to go through medical school before his opinion is valid. If some guy who wants to go to medical school tells you to remove your spleen, you wouldn't listen.

A scientist needs to get a degree before his opinion is valid. If some guy wants to be a scientist and tells you that drinking chlorine will give you superpowers, you wouldn't listen to him.

However, when it comes to religion, it seems that just about anyone, regardless of education or understanding, can launch arguments for or against and credibility is never taken into account. To be frank, I am sick of these ignorant and almost childish assaults on religion rooted in more often in emotion than reason.

I am curious as to why religion (more specifically theology) has fallen into this trap of pseudo-intellectualism, where you no longer need an education to have a credible opinion. Why do people feel as if "just anyone" can cast their opinion on such a deep and complicated subject.

Ugh. /rant.
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 02-02-2012, 10:57 PM #2
orange!
i did it for the lulz
 
orange!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: RVA
orange! owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
orange! has achieved Level 3 in PbNation Pursuit
Part of it is that religion is a humanity, not a science. There is no definite answer to anything - it all comes down to what you personally believe/conclusions you may draw from what you practice. Someone can go to Catholic services every Sunday for 30 straight years and tell you that you will die in your sleep if you have sex before you marry but that does not make it true. They may believe they are a life expert when in reality they are just spewing out what a single religion has been feeding them.

Hope this helps in some way haha I feel your pain and agree with what you are saying. In other words, "Amen!"
__________________
Old Feedback (21+/0-)
Nick Slowiak Fan #32
Bang bang.
orange! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 11:06 PM #3
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by orange! View Post
Part of it is that religion is a humanity, not a science. There is no definite answer to anything - it all comes down to what you personally believe/conclusions you may draw from what you practice. Someone can go to Catholic services every Sunday for 30 straight years and tell you that you will die in your sleep if you have sex before you marry but that does not make it true. They may believe they are a life expert when in reality they are just spewing out what a single religion has been feeding them.

Hope this helps in some way haha I feel your pain and agree with what you are saying. In other words, "Amen!"
Sorry. To clarify, I am referring to theology not personal belief. Obviously, you have your own opinion to what is right. I am talking about blatant twisting of doctrines, scriptures, and religious thought into something it is not in order to criticize it.
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 11:16 PM #4
Treghc
 
 
Treghc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Seattle
Treghc is a Supporting Member
Treghc is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
Treghc is a Forum Captain
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Sorry. To clarify, I am referring to theology not personal belief. Obviously, you have your own opinion to what is right. I am talking about blatant twisting of doctrines, scriptures, and religious thought into something it is not in order to criticize it.
In this day and age of interpretive scripture, when exactly is religious thought something it is not anymore? It seems to me that anything goes these days, which I'm sure is part of your argument, but the whole area is so grey that it's almost "wrong" to stand on a specific side, even when it comes to scriptural translation.

I'd like to see your opinion on an objective stance of scriptural translation and/or where it should be, along with the reasoning and [hopefully] evidence to support that stance.
__________________
“But men, they say a lot of foolish things. In the end, the only words I can find to believe in are mine." - Joe

Tarsier Slave


We are Sapien
Treghc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 11:49 PM #5
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
I'd like to see your opinion on an objective stance of scriptural translation and/or where it should be, along with the reasoning and [hopefully] evidence to support that stance.
I am not asking for an objective stance, but an awareness of extreme context and language issues present and the inability for someone to make a real argument without first crossing those barriers.

Here's a quote by Rob bell that focuses on one small aspect of context, but the generalized idea behind the quote still applies: “Most of the Bible is a history told by people living in lands occupied by conquering superpowers. It is a book written from the underside of power. It’s an oppression narrative. The majority of the Bible was written by a minority people living under the rule and reign of massive, mighty empires, from the Egyptian Empire to the Babylonian Empire to the Persian Empire to the Assyrian Empire to the Roman Empire. This can make the Bible a very difficult book to understand if you are reading it as a citizen of the the most powerful empire the world has ever seen. Without careful study and reflection, and humility, it may even be possible to miss central themes of the Scriptures.”
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 12:09 AM #6
Treghc
 
 
Treghc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Seattle
Treghc is a Supporting Member
Treghc is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
Treghc is a Forum Captain
I'm having trouble seeing where that quote ties in with someone needing to be educated to try and defend religious opinion...

I guess I'm just not understanding what you're getting at. It could very well be my fault.
__________________
“But men, they say a lot of foolish things. In the end, the only words I can find to believe in are mine." - Joe

Tarsier Slave


We are Sapien
Treghc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 08:30 AM #7
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
I'm having trouble seeing where that quote ties in with someone needing to be educated to try and defend religious opinion...

I guess I'm just not understanding what you're getting at. It could very well be my fault.
For me, the problem comes in when people who are clearly uneducated start making claims based on their interpretation without first understanding the culture and the language of the text. The quote was one small example of a huge cultural and social barrier (oppressive nation) that one must first understand before approaching the scriptures. If we go into the scriptures from our perspective instead of theirs, we will continue to butcher what they are saying.

**This is more of a rant, then a valid argument BTW.
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 10:31 AM #8
teamsilentassassins
Treat Yo'self
 
teamsilentassassins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: USA
teamsilentassassins is BST Trusted
teamsilentassassins plays in the PSP
teamsilentassassins supports Team VICIOUS
teamsilentassassins plays in the APPA D3 division
teamsilentassassins has achieved Level 3 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
For me, the problem comes in when people who are clearly uneducated start making claims based on their interpretation without first understanding the culture and the language of the text. The quote was one small example of a huge cultural and social barrier (oppressive nation) that one must first understand before approaching the scriptures. If we go into the scriptures from our perspective instead of theirs, we will continue to butcher what they are saying.

**This is more of a rant, then a valid argument BTW.
I think all of the mentioned disciplines work the same way as religion, but I think a certain concession has to be made in order for the description to work: very rarely do you see a pastor who knows nothing about Scripture make it to his pastorial position. If you don't know anything about the Bible or Christine doctrine, you're most likely not going to be a pastor/preacher/priest. I think the issue you're ranting about is that common people argue things they don't understand, and that's where the cultural barrier arises. People will talk all day about politics, religion, science and the like without really understanding what they're talking about. They're more like to spout off either random bull**** or repeating what they'e heard like a parrot, not really considering, thinking or understanding what they've heard. At least a menial knowledge of your field is required to gain a position of authority, it's simply the social/cultural barrier you described earlier that really IMO applies to the masses.

I don't think I was reiterating, but if I was, feel free to tell me
__________________
LIVEWIRE

ATO@WKU Colony

By the way, when you see a vagina, your whole world will change. --Thunderstick

wow. your argument has more holes than the failed condom that resulted in your birth. --MaLfUnCtIoN3
teamsilentassassins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 02:31 PM #9
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iammartinchurchill View Post
I think those who are religious and those who aren't are equally guilty of what you are talking about.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iammartinchurchill View Post
We opened the doors to allow the common man to figure it out for himself, and this is your result.
I agree, but I think there needs to be a distinction between "what one believes" and in-depth theological, doctrinal, or scriptural issues. You have every right to choose what you believe. You don't have every right to make an argument for or against something that you know nothing about simply based on ignorance and emotions.
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2012, 06:25 PM #10
orange!
i did it for the lulz
 
orange!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: RVA
orange! owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
orange! has achieved Level 3 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iammartinchurchill View Post
The most popular justification techniques of the modern era: Well it's my opinion! Hey, that's his opinion, who are you to say otherwise! Well, that guy likes it! It's all opinion man!
Hit the nail on the head.
__________________
Old Feedback (21+/0-)
Nick Slowiak Fan #32
Bang bang.
orange! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 12:59 AM #11
vijil
Giant Paintball Robot
 
vijil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Zealand
Agreed with the above.

Perhaps TSA is getting at when people like Steven Hawking come out and use their influence to claim authority on subjects of which they have little or no real expertise. Normally I love Steve but the guy just can't keep his sticky mitts out of things he should leave well enough alone like saying in "The Grand Design" that philosophy is dead. As if he knew something beyond the most entry level philosophy. It's simply not his area to make grand sweeping dismissals of and I'd thought he was smarter than that. There are many other examples.

The same tends to happen with religion. People from both sides build the most elaborate straw men you could think of and then burn them down in the form of international bestsellers. Everyday punters doing so I can understand. So called intellectuals should know better. I suppose it proves mostly that "smart" people are as human as the rest of us.

I suppose it can't be stopped.
vijil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 07:23 PM #12
Spock
Live Long and Bluster
 
Spock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: SE PA
Spock is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
A doctor needs to go through medical school before his opinion is valid. If some guy who wants to go to medical school tells you to remove your spleen, you wouldn't listen.

A scientist needs to get a degree before his opinion is valid. If some guy wants to be a scientist and tells you that drinking chlorine will give you superpowers, you wouldn't listen to him.

However, when it comes to religion, it seems that just about anyone, regardless of education or understanding, can launch arguments for or against and credibility is never taken into account. To be frank, I am sick of these ignorant and almost childish assaults on religion rooted in more often in emotion than reason.

I am curious as to why religion (more specifically theology) has fallen into this trap of pseudo-intellectualism, where you no longer need an education to have a credible opinion. Why do people feel as if "just anyone" can cast their opinion on such a deep and complicated subject.

Ugh. /rant.
It doesn't take an advanced degree in anything to figure out that religion is factually baseless.

All you have to do is ask the smartest representative of any religion to prove that his religion is right, kick up your feet, and yeah, your work is done.
__________________
"Once I make someone die, and they see me....they can't change their mind." -- God

Originally posted by matt00iconoclast:
"there are variables outside of physics that will affect the flight of the ball"
Spock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 08:00 PM #13
Treghc
 
 
Treghc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Seattle
Treghc is a Supporting Member
Treghc is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
Treghc is a Forum Captain
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iammartinchurchill View Post
No, it just takes a few morons to sit down and treat religious works like science textbooks.
So, in other words, religion is factually baseless...

Alright.
__________________
“But men, they say a lot of foolish things. In the end, the only words I can find to believe in are mine." - Joe

Tarsier Slave


We are Sapien
Treghc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 09:50 PM #14
Treghc
 
 
Treghc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Seattle
Treghc is a Supporting Member
Treghc is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
Treghc is a Forum Captain
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iammartinchurchill View Post
And yet one need only open a book of outdated facts to understand how mutable facts, as we understand them, truly are.
I'd argue religious doctrine is part of those outdated facts. You're only solidifying my argument.
__________________
“But men, they say a lot of foolish things. In the end, the only words I can find to believe in are mine." - Joe

Tarsier Slave


We are Sapien
Treghc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 10:11 PM #15
Umami
Mad as a hatter
 
Umami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Laniakea
Umami works for a Paintball manufacturer
Umami supports our troops
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Here's a quote by Rob bell that focuses on one small aspect of context, but the generalized idea behind the quote still applies: “Most of the Bible is a history told by people living in lands occupied by conquering superpowers. It is a book written from the underside of power. It’s an oppression narrative. The majority of the Bible was written by a minority people living under the rule and reign of massive, mighty empires, from the Egyptian Empire to the Babylonian Empire to the Persian Empire to the Assyrian Empire to the Roman Empire. This can make the Bible a very difficult book to understand if you are reading it as a citizen of the the most powerful empire the world has ever seen. Without careful study and reflection, and humility, it may even be possible to miss central themes of the Scriptures.”
A large portion of those who claim to be religious do not prescribe to this idea, and as a result invite condemnation and ridicule of what they believe. I'm convinced that if people who were religious understood this concept, the hostility would be greatly diminished on both sides of the argument. A lot of anti-theists are upset because of the way they're treated by theists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
I agree, but I think there needs to be a distinction between "what one believes" and in-depth theological, doctrinal, or scriptural issues.
Alright, what is the distinction? The problem with scripture is that it's so vague it is left open for interpretation. The book is largely an oral history that was written down. There are a lot of assertions within scripture that have to be taken at face value, on faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iammartinchurchill View Post
And yet one need only open a book of outdated facts to understand how mutable facts, as we understand them, truly are.
That's dishonest and you know it. Most of the "facts" that are overturned in books of "facts" are opinions and unfounded assertions, deposed by the very method you're trying to discredit. In other cases, ideas are not completely overturned but rather refined into more precise descriptions.

The concept that theology and scripture are an accurate description of any scenario, the perfect guide if you will, infinitely flexible and impervious to being overturned or refined are precisely what makes them dead ideas. You can re-interpret it all you want but nobody can edit and refine scripture itself because they have no grounds to do so; it is an outmoded part of our culture, becoming less and less relevant on a daily basis.
__________________
Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man.

I am affiliated with Lurker Paintball. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of LurkerPB.

Last edited by Umami : 02-05-2012 at 10:20 PM.
Umami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 10:50 AM #16
Iamamartianchurch
 
 
Iamamartianchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
That's dishonest and you know it. Most of the "facts" that are overturned in books of "facts" are opinions and unfounded assertions, deposed by the very method you're trying to discredit. In other cases, ideas are not completely overturned but rather refined into more precise descriptions.

The concept that theology and scripture are an accurate description of any scenario, the perfect guide if you will, infinitely flexible and impervious to being overturned or refined are precisely what makes them dead ideas. You can re-interpret it all you want but nobody can edit and refine scripture itself because they have no grounds to do so; it is an outmoded part of our culture, becoming less and less relevant on a daily basis.
No it's not dishonest. The point I'm trying to make is that we want to weigh in theology against our current collection of facts. Even though we all readily admit that they are subject to modification or removal the moment new data arrives or a reinterpretation of old data is accepted. It is very likely that 1000 years from now, we are going to be mocked for clinging to what we call facts. After all, everything we call fact is the product of our perception.

You are incorrect about all religions being inflexible and absolute. Such is not always the case. Rigidity is common among exoteric practices which are most common in today's world. Then there are other religions or theologies which function like a university.

This whole conversation is off topic anyway.

Last edited by Iamamartianchurch : 02-06-2012 at 02:27 PM.
Iamamartianchurch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 10:51 AM #17
Iamamartianchurch
 
 
Iamamartianchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
I'd argue religious doctrine is part of those outdated facts. You're only solidifying my argument.
You are insufferable sometimes.
Iamamartianchurch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 01:17 PM #18
wavesport001
 
 
wavesport001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The River
Quote:
I'd argue religious doctrine is part of those outdated ideas.
fixed.

[quote]After all, everything we call fact is the product of our perception. [quote]

This is bull****. Acceleration due to gravity is 9.8m/s/s anywhere near earth's surface. If you think it's based on perception, jump from a plane from altitude without a parachute.
__________________
"It is always better to have no ideas than false ones; to believe nothing, than to believe what is wrong." -Thomas Jefferson

"it really doesnt matter what you say on here. if there was truly evidence, it would come from a professor, not from a member on pbnation.com." - Anonymous poster

Last edited by wavesport001 : 02-06-2012 at 01:19 PM.
wavesport001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 02:50 PM #19
Iamamartianchurch
 
 
Iamamartianchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by wavesport001 View Post
Acceleration due to gravity is 9.8m/s/s anywhere near earth's surface. If you think it's based on perception, jump from a plane from altitude without a parachute.
Stop being so dense. What is a meter? What is a second? They are concepts we invented to explain to ourselves and others phenomenon which we experience or objects we need to describe. Anything we do or create is the product of our perceptions.

Putting something into words is helpful because it allows us to ease the understanding of that thing within our own limitations. Unfortunately, that action also takes us further away from the quintessence of the thing.

bottom line: stop being so dogmatic.
Iamamartianchurch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 11:06 AM #20
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
It's funny. I make a thread and then we get a new troll to prove my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtoBaller1991 View Post
Besides, it's the bible which means anyone can interpret it in any way that they want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtoBaller1991 View Post
I interpret the bible how I see it and slavery is how I see it.
Ignoring context and applying ones own definitions to a text that wasn't about them. Please tell me the rest of you see the huge logical flaws with this type of thing.
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2012, 11:56 AM #21
wavesport001
 
 
wavesport001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The River
Quote:
Ignoring context and applying ones own definitions to a text that wasn't about them. Please tell me the rest of you see the huge logical flaws with this type of thing.
I agree with you, but don't delude yourself into thinking that context solves all objections people have to the Old Testament.

Quote:
Stop being so dense. What is a meter? What is a second? They are concepts we invented to explain to ourselves and others phenomenon which we experience or objects we need to describe. Anything we do or create is the product of our perceptions.

Putting something into words is helpful because it allows us to ease the understanding of that thing within our own limitations. Unfortunately, that action also takes us further away from the quintessence of the thing.

bottom line: stop being so dogmatic.
The way we describe a phenomenon doesn't change the objective nature of that phenomenon. Bottom line: everything is not relative, there are objective facts.
__________________
"It is always better to have no ideas than false ones; to believe nothing, than to believe what is wrong." -Thomas Jefferson

"it really doesnt matter what you say on here. if there was truly evidence, it would come from a professor, not from a member on pbnation.com." - Anonymous poster
wavesport001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump