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Old 02-08-2012, 06:11 PM #22
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You conveniently omitted the fact that the alternative to a Democratic presidency is a theocratic, anti-science, anti-intellectual regime that is hell-bent on destroying "useless" organizations like the EPA and Department of Education.
lololol the Department of Education is useful lololol.

somebody chugged the blue koolaid.
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Old 02-08-2012, 07:26 PM #23
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Originally Posted by dot.nation

lololol the Department of Education is useful lololol.

somebody chugged the blue koolaid.
Is it perfect? No. Can it be improved in terms of effectiveness and minimize cost through overhead? Most likely.

The problem with you, and most republicons, is that you don't view any subject matter on the margin: it's all or nothing, usually nothing. Republicons 'fix' to everything is to abolish it, use rhetoric like wasteful spending and freedom as catchphrases to gain support, and give no explanation to the ramifications of such action or provide a viable alternative.

But to get back on topic, Superpacs are bad bc they can easily be exploited, (see Colbert), allow for a few to sway the opinion of millions, and will only make the election seasons that much uglier in terms of smear tactics. Florida's GOP primary was testament to that.
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Old 02-08-2012, 09:19 PM #24
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lololol the Department of Education is useful lololol.

somebody chugged the blue koolaid.
Getting rid of the DOE is a great way to move back to 19th century America where only the rich can read and write. From the "lolololo" (a mid-post brain aneurysm, I'd assume) it does look the public school system has failed you, so I can understand your viewpoint.
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Old 02-08-2012, 10:27 PM #25
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Is it perfect? No. Can it be improved in terms of effectiveness and minimize cost through overhead? Most likely.

The problem with you, and most republicons, is that you don't view any subject matter on the margin: it's all or nothing, usually nothing. Republicons 'fix' to everything is to abolish it, use rhetoric like wasteful spending and freedom as catchphrases to gain support, and give no explanation to the ramifications of such action or provide a viable alternative.

But to get back on topic, Superpacs are bad bc they can easily be exploited, (see Colbert), allow for a few to sway the opinion of millions, and will only make the election seasons that much uglier in terms of smear tactics. Florida's GOP primary was testament to that.
meanwhile, liberlols are too dependent on the government to do things for them and rely on a condescending moral high ground to rationalize their views and guilt support from people.

ho hooo generalizations.
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:25 PM #26
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Are you serious(angry birds)? Education in this country has been such a ****ing dog and pony show with forcing kids to learn useless garbage 7 out of 8 hours in a school day. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that math and science are still being taught to an adequate degree.

Schools used to teach to a kids talents and education was expanded on apprenticeships and part time work. Now we have post-secondary schools, charging insane amounts of money for students to blow two years of time and tuition on "liberal arts" which in many cases have nothing to do with a career in their major (unless you are trying to be a liberal arts teacher). History classes are a joke, its typically one sided pro American Rah rah rah bull****.

We tie teachers' hands to teach to a test, cannot reward good teachers and make it extremely difficult to fire bad ones. The Federal Government limits the ability to be unique and diverse in methods of teaching. On top of all that, states are forced to pay into the DoE, then they have to beg for some of their own citizens' money back for various funding and budget proposals, and if the your state is lucky you may get some percentage back, under certain strings attached by the federal agencies.

The DoE is a relatively new agency IIRC enacted in the 1980s and is an abject failure, our education level as a nation has been slipping and the DoE sure has not slowed that down. Let the states, teachers, and communities deal with education and maybe we can have some competition amongst schools to compete for students and therefore local tax money.

If your kid likes art but doesn't care for sport extracurriculars they can be sent to school A with no penalty, and the sports kids can go to B or vice versa. Maybe you want a well rounded school for your kid or the staff at one is better or treated better so you, as a parent, would support that over the alternative. Competition in anything is a great thing, it encourages innovation and constant improvement to stay ahead and offer the best possible product at the lowest cost. Our current system is designed to be content with mediocrity.
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:03 AM #27
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The DoE has failed. Look at why they were instituted.

What caused the quality of education garnered in America to drop?

It has dropped since Carter's Dept of Ed, and higher education has increased in price by 400%... even though more people are using it.
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:35 AM #28
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It's official. Obama has decided to leave children behind when it comes to their education.

http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-of...110202341.html
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:39 AM #29
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It should be dropped all together.

No Child Left Behind (NCLB) had Teddy Kennedy pissed, because he believed W co-opted his education policy.
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:13 AM #30
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But to get back on topic, Superpacs are bad bc they can easily be exploited, (see Colbert), allow for a few to sway the opinion of millions, and will only make the election seasons that much uglier in terms of smear tactics.
Colbert's PAC was a ruse.

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Although Colbert has often used the phrase “unlimited corporate money” in reference to his Super PAC, last Tuesday’s disclosures paint a very different picture. Colbert’s PAC, which raised more than $825,000 through the end of the year, has raised almost no corporate money. Indeed, the only two corporate donations he reported to the Federal Election Commission amount to $714, total. In addition to barely raising any corporate money, Colbert’s Super PAC accepted only one contribution from an individual (of $9,600) in excess of the $5,000 limit that applies to regular PACs. In other words, more than 99% of the money Colbert has raised to mock Citizens United and Super PACs is money that has been legal under the campaign finance laws for decades.
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:13 AM #31
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Are you serious(angry birds)? Education in this country has been such a ****ing dog and pony show with forcing kids to learn useless garbage 7 out of 8 hours in a school day. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that math and science are still being taught to an adequate degree.

Schools used to teach to a kids talents and education was expanded on apprenticeships and part time work. Now we have post-secondary schools, charging insane amounts of money for students to blow two years of time and tuition on "liberal arts" which in many cases have nothing to do with a career in their major (unless you are trying to be a liberal arts teacher). History classes are a joke, its typically one sided pro American Rah rah rah bull****.

We tie teachers' hands to teach to a test, cannot reward good teachers and make it extremely difficult to fire bad ones. The Federal Government limits the ability to be unique and diverse in methods of teaching. On top of all that, states are forced to pay into the DoE, then they have to beg for some of their own citizens' money back for various funding and budget proposals, and if the your state is lucky you may get some percentage back, under certain strings attached by the federal agencies.

The DoE is a relatively new agency IIRC enacted in the 1980s and is an abject failure, our education level as a nation has been slipping and the DoE sure has not slowed that down. Let the states, teachers, and communities deal with education and maybe we can have some competition amongst schools to compete for students and therefore local tax money.

If your kid likes art but doesn't care for sport extracurriculars they can be sent to school A with no penalty, and the sports kids can go to B or vice versa. Maybe you want a well rounded school for your kid or the staff at one is better or treated better so you, as a parent, would support that over the alternative. Competition in anything is a great thing, it encourages innovation and constant improvement to stay ahead and offer the best possible product at the lowest cost. Our current system is designed to be content with mediocrity.


Right, let's let every commmunity decide for themselves how is best to teach their kids. What about poor communities that do not have funding for good teachers, or extra AP courses like calculus, physics, business, economics, and government? What about communities where educations just isn't a high priority? Who's to hold them accountable so their student's get a good education? I would just love to see the disparity amongst states alone in how they teach. I'm sure the Alabama's, Mississippis, and Arkansas would do a GREAT job of preparing their students for success if left to themselves

The issue with education has a lot more to do with the culture, genetics, and upbringing of kids than it does the federal government (which is a favorite cop-out for every republicon on here). The federal government ensures that all students, regardless of where you are from, get a GOOD public education if you live in the US; how you decide to use that good education is a personal choice and many individuals simply choose not to do well in school, mostly for the reasons I listed above.

I went to public schooling, graduated from high school, went on to college, graduated with honors and now work for a fortune 500 company. I took advantage of the opportunities my federally funded education provided me, and I did well with it.

Changing the education system so that it's on a state by state, or worse, community by community basis will only exacerbate the gap between the rich and poor.
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:34 AM #32
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The states are better suited to handle resources than the federal government granting permission for grants was my point. The system we have encourages districts cheating and teaching to a national testing standard.

Your personal experience is anecdotal. The reality is that since the Dept. of Ed. was created, education levels as a nation has not significantly improved. You are assuming parents are incompetent at teaching there kids and having influence in their district's education curriculum. I am asserting that because the myth that the federal government is best suited to arrange for educational standards, the responsibility is taken from the parents, whether they want to have a role in education or not.

In NJ we have what's called Abbot districts, the poor inner cities (Camden, Newark, Irvington) That do not have the tax revenues to pay for education are subsidized by property taxes from other districts. As a result, more money is thrown at those districts per student than other areas of the state and there has been no measurable improvement. On top of that, the districts who actually pay the taxes to fund the abbots have no say in board of education members in those districts.

In a case a few years ago (there are many), the Superintendent of a Camden district essentially embezzled millions of dollars on personal expenses, vacations, etc... and when the story came out, the idiot voters re-elected him, why should they care its not their money? He did a few things for the schools, or at least gave the appearance he did to uninformed parents. This is so far beyond what education should be.

I don;t believe the myth that the federal government provides "good" education at all, in fact I think a good education comes more from passionate teachers and parents who are actively involved, not some arbitrary standard set by the federal government in order to determine who gets more money.
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:52 AM #33
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The states are better suited to handle resources than the federal government granting permission for grants was my point. The system we have encourages districts cheating and teaching to a national testing standard.

Your personal experience is anecdotal. The reality is that since the Dept. of Ed. was created, education levels as a nation has not significantly improved. You are assuming parents are incompetent at teaching there kids and having influence in their district's education curriculum. I am asserting that because the myth that the federal government is best suited to arrange for educational standards, the responsibility is taken from the parents, whether they want to have a role in education or not.

In NJ we have what's called Abbot districts, the poor inner cities (Camden, Newark, Irvington) That do not have the tax revenues to pay for education are subsidized by property taxes from other districts. As a result, more money is thrown at those districts per student than other areas of the state and there has been no measurable improvement. On top of that, the districts who actually pay the taxes to fund the abbots have no say in board of education members in those districts.

In a case a few years ago (there are many), the Superintendent of a Camden district essentially embezzled millions of dollars on personal expenses, vacations, etc... and when the story came out, the idiot voters re-elected him, why should they care its not their money? He did a few things for the schools, or at least gave the appearance he did to uninformed parents. This is so far beyond what education should be.

I don;t believe the myth that the federal government provides "good" education at all, in fact I think a good education comes more from passionate teachers and parents who are actively involved, not some arbitrary standard set by the federal government in order to determine who gets more money.
And you're completely missing MY point. In a market driven system, there are have's and have-nots. The market will decide who gets good education, and who gets piss poor education. I can already tell you where the good one's will be and where the poor one's will be without doing any further research than looking at a map and pointing at rural areas and inner cities for negative effects, and suburuban areas for doing well. The thing is, some people just don't care about education, and in some areas, entire communities don't give two ****s about education. This is reflective in drop out rates, low test scores, and low graduation percentages. If we give THESE people the power to decide what their education will look like, how exactly do you think the market will decide the outcome will be? Do you honestly think it will be better than what the DOE provides?

And you're completely wrong if you think parenting does not have A HUGE IMPACT on education. That's completely asenine and there are entire books and thesis papers written on it. A student is in school & classroom what, 6-7 hours a day? The other 17 they are at home, lunch, in between classes. If parents are not teaching students the benefits of education, teaching them how to study, work ethic, do their homework, turn it in on time, plan ahead to exams, etc. then they are destined to do poorly in school. And parents who come from bad backgrounds/poor areas are disproportionatly affected because THEIR parents did the same lack-luster job on them (it's cyclical, hence my statement about Genetics. Read Levitt for more on this).

And anectodal evidence for a publicly funded education IS a justifiable qualification because MY education in OHIO was the same as YOURS in NJ, that's the whole point here. I can use it because I know that yours was no different, so for you to claim, "I don't believe in the myth of public education is good," is again, retarded, because it's not a myth, it's fact. We both went through it, and we both know that it's a fine system that prepares students for college. If you think public education is a myth, you must have been homeschooled.

Here's the real reality: every year colleges get filled with AMERICAN students who go on to be doctors, engineers, scientists, nurses, business leaders, architects, etc and lead successful lives thanks to the education that was provided them since they were 4. If our public education was so bad, then this would not be the case; students would get into the college classroom and flunk out in droves. In reality, this only happens to certain DEMOGRAPHICS (mostly students from rural areas and inner cities). And I'm asserting it's not because their education was bad: their education was the same as mine. They aren't doing well because they didn't take advantage and learn and try as hard as I did (or possibly you, I dont know), and their parents most likely did not make it a high priority to do well in school.

can the DOE be improved? Certainly. Do we need to abolish it and replace it with the Buncomb County Education board in rural Alabama that get's to decide what their students learn? Absolutely not.
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:53 AM #34
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Right, let's let every commmunity decide for themselves how is best to teach their kids. ...
That is exactly what we did when the quality of education was much better.

I'm sorry that you are a bigot, and think poor = dumb.

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...If parents are not teaching students the benefits of education, teaching them how to study, work ethic, do their homework, turn it in on time, plan ahead to exams, etc. then they are destined to do poorly in school....
Umm... no. Parents need to teach their kids. Period. Benefits of education my aching ***, try the benefits of knowledge and being inquisitive. They aren't the same.
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:57 AM #35
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That is exactly what we did when the quality of education was much better.

I'm sorry that you are a bigot, and think poor = dumb.
I liked you better when you gave substantive responses.
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:00 AM #36
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I'm working, I don't have the time to pull up the charts showing the quality of education dropping over the years. I still like you, though.
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:03 AM #37
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I'm working, I don't have the time to pull up the charts showing the quality of education dropping over the years. I still like you, though.
You're going to have to define "quality of education dropping over the years."

Are we talking test scores? That seems to be the only quantifiable way to measure if a student is learning over the course of their educational career.

I'm asserting that the gov't does a fine job of providing that education; some will take that education and run with it, others will slack through school and the test scores are going to be reflective of that.

Maybe this whole thing ties together with the 1% vs. 99% movment; some of us like to work hard and do well, others perfer to coast by. My point is, that the system is fair for the whole 100%.
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Old 02-09-2012, 12:49 PM #38
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If your primary concern is equity in funding, then we need to get away from funding schools through property taxes and move toward having them funded on a per-pupil basis at a set rate, and that could be handled by the states with the federal government supplementing the poorer states with grants. That could be done with a much more streamlined and cheaper system than we have now. I suppose we could have a system of federal guidelines for education standards too, but beyond that, I see no need for the Dept of Education to exist.
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Old 02-09-2012, 12:57 PM #39
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Right, let's let every commmunity decide for themselves how is best to teach their kids. What about poor communities that do not have funding for good teachers, or extra AP courses like calculus, physics, business, economics, and government? What about communities where educations just isn't a high priority? Who's to hold them accountable so their student's get a good education? I would just love to see the disparity amongst states alone in how they teach. I'm sure the Alabama's, Mississippis, and Arkansas would do a GREAT job of preparing their students for success if left to themselves
Ever consider that competition and hardship might actually motivate people to do well so they don't have to raise their children in bad environments and be educated by terrible teachers? Why not instead just let the failures fail on their own instead of subsidizing them and wasting our time?

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The issue with education has a lot more to do with the culture, genetics, and upbringing of kids than it does the federal government (which is a favorite cop-out for every republicon on here).
I agree.

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The federal government ensures that all students, regardless of where you are from, get a GOOD public education if you live in the US; how you decide to use that good education is a personal choice and many individuals simply choose not to do well in school, mostly for the reasons I listed above.
The federal government's standard is set very low. The objective is push as many kids through as it can. This path of altruism created an environment where the quality of public education is vastly reduced.

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I went to public schooling, graduated from high school, went on to college, graduated with honors and now work for a fortune 500 company. I took advantage of the opportunities my federally funded education provided me, and I did well with it.
I'm surprised you could stomach it all the way through. I spent the bulk of my educational career staring off at the mountains daydreaming through the open windows. Or doodling on paper. A stale environment that creates nothing but replaceable cogs.

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Changing the education system so that it's on a state by state, or worse, community by community basis will only exacerbate the gap between the rich and poor.
The public education has utterly failed in closing this gap.
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Old 02-09-2012, 12:59 PM #40
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I'm working, I don't have the time to pull up the charts showing the quality of education dropping over the years. I still like you, though.
This argument always gets rolled out, usually by older generations bemoaning the "inadequacy" of the younger generations. You know the argument: "These kids are lazy. These kids are getting dumbed down. These teachers are jokes, certainly not how they used to be. The education system gets worse every year." There are problems with the system. No doubt. The system is also being asked to teach much much more and at earlier ages. For math and science, the modern education system expects teachers to teach to high school freshmen what used to be taught to high school juniors and seniors "back in the good old days". The amount of what is considered to be necessary knowledge keeps growing exponentially.

It is absolutely ludicrous to say that the system is somehow "worse" than ever. The average test scores may drop, but did you factor in the constant call for more rigorous standards that have been making the tests and curricula harder over time? We continue to add content, but we strip away school days and inflate class sizes. How is fracturing the universality of our education system going to solve any of these problems?

I swear, the only answers that half the posters on this forum have is "Let the states do it!!1!", as if the states don't piss money away and make bad decisions like any other human-run institution. Where you are born and where you go to school already has a huge impact on your chance for success. Further decentralizing the system just doubles down on this fact.
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:53 PM #41
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Ever consider that competition and hardship might actually motivate people to do well so they don't have to raise their children in bad environments and be educated by terrible teachers? Why not instead just let the failures fail on their own instead of subsidizing them and wasting our time?



I agree.



The federal government's standard is set very low. The objective is push as many kids through as it can. This path of altruism created an environment where the quality of public education is vastly reduced.



I'm surprised you could stomach it all the way through. I spent the bulk of my educational career staring off at the mountains daydreaming through the open windows. Or doodling on paper. A stale environment that creates nothing but replaceable cogs.



The public education has utterly failed in closing this gap.

A few things.

1. Competition in what regard? Schools competing, or students competing with their peers to get out of their poor predicament? The latter happens everyday, just on a small scale and our tax dollars often go to waste on students who have no intention of doing better regardless. Letting the failing fail could be a solution, but if it is, Republicans/Conservatives need to be honest about their intentions.

2. Education is 40% direct instructional (teachers), 40% parenting, and 20% student. I don't think the federal government has failed in teaching the core curriculum to our students; sure Japanese and Chinese students overall are doing better, but that doesn't mean that the best and brightest Americans aren't going on to be doctors and engineers. It's a personal choice.

3. You're right: the BARE MINIMUM to get a HS diploma is pretty easy. However, that's where good parenting comes in and a desire to be successful. Is algebra easy? For most, yes. But does your school also offer accelerated courses? Calculus? AP classes such as Lit, Chem, Physics, Econ, Government? Those are all VERY challenging, and SHOULD be offered to all students if they wish to take them and improve themselves. All in all, lot's of things in life are easy if you take the easy route; if you want to get the most out of your situation, take advantage of the opportunities presented. Public education is no different.

If I had my way, to fix test scores in this country, and improve life overall, I'd substitute all of the funding that goes to schools in poor and rural areas, and re-direct it to boarding schools. Areas with low test scores correlate to areas riddled with crime, drug usage, or rural country where upward mobility is not a high priority. If we remove students at a young age from these negative environments and put them in boarding schools, i believe we could improve the nation's overall intellect and utility three-fold in the span of a single generation. See Agassi's Boarding school in Nevada as a model of success on how to improve education.

However, that will never happen, and blaming the gov't for the current educational standards isn't really a solution to the problem; it's more or less a buzz word to get conservatives fired up.
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Last edited by Matt.is.back2011 : 02-09-2012 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:59 PM #42
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Originally Posted by The Ralpst View Post
This argument always gets rolled out, usually by older generations bemoaning the "inadequacy" of the younger generations. You know the argument: "These kids are lazy. These kids are getting dumbed down. These teachers are jokes, certainly not how they used to be. The education system gets worse every year." There are problems with the system. No doubt. The system is also being asked to teach much much more and at earlier ages. For math and science, the modern education system expects teachers to teach to high school freshmen what used to be taught to high school juniors and seniors "back in the good old days". The amount of what is considered to be necessary knowledge keeps growing exponentially.

It is absolutely ludicrous to say that the system is somehow "worse" than ever. The average test scores may drop, but did you factor in the constant call for more rigorous standards that have been making the tests and curricula harder over time? We continue to add content, but we strip away school days and inflate class sizes. How is fracturing the universality of our education system going to solve any of these problems?

I swear, the only answers that half the posters on this forum have is "Let the states do it!!1!", as if the states don't piss money away and make bad decisions like any other human-run institution. Where you are born and where you go to school already has a huge impact on your chance for success. Further decentralizing the system just doubles down on this fact.
Bingo, bango, bongo.
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