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Old 01-01-2012, 10:33 AM #85
D. Feyd
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Your right. Ramping isn't the problem. It ramping guns in the wrong hands which is about 75 percent of players that don't play speedball but look the part. Ya know I watch the good speedball guys and they are all good! They don't cheat, they don't over shoot, they don't swear in front of the 12 year old and his mom! They are generally good people. But what about the rest of the punks with the latest from Dye & Ego. Are the higher ups doing anything to keep them under control? Thats where a huge disconnect and problem in the sport is. So if you really look at it you will see how ramping and I'm not talking about legal 12.5 percent ramping in the hands of a real tourney guy. I'm talking about sick machine gun, 22 balls a second ramping that the 14 year old rich kid is doing against the walk ons. Feyd..........
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:14 PM #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Feyd View Post
Your right. Ramping isn't the problem. It ramping guns in the wrong hands which is about 75 percent of players that don't play speedball but look the part. Ya know I watch the good speedball guys and they are all good! They don't cheat, they don't over shoot, they don't swear in front of the 12 year old and his mom! They are generally good people. But what about the rest of the punks with the latest from Dye & Ego. Are the higher ups doing anything to keep them under control? Thats where a huge disconnect and problem in the sport is. So if you really look at it you will see how ramping and I'm not talking about legal 12.5 percent ramping in the hands of a real tourney guy. I'm talking about sick machine gun, 22 balls a second ramping that the 14 year old rich kid is doing against the walk ons. Feyd..........
Its a personal responsibility. It's probably in the best interest of the field owner, and fellow players to say something to them, penalize them or remove them from play. That's what happens in ever other sport.

Good people are good, bad people are bad...

(PS I've never seen some one go off the wall by over ramping against walk ons)
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Old 01-04-2012, 09:45 AM #87
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i will always stay true to my .68 baby gurl
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:30 AM #88
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Originally Posted by pumpmonkey1 View Post
Ok, I have the solution...

Keep paintballs the same(68 cal), but if paint cost too much, USE LESS!!!
Players need to stop spraying and start aiming. If we all use a little less paint, the game becomes cheaper, and more challenging.

Think About It.
Agreed.
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Old 02-02-2012, 06:44 PM #89
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as i have posted in a diff. thread, .50cal is good for practice because it is good for making you move up closer and work a little harder but in the long run .68 cal will push .50 cal out completely
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Old 05-31-2013, 07:30 PM #90
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Every hobby is expensive. Skydiving, 3 gun (real firearms) shooting competitions, scuba diving, Rugby, golf. It all costs money. And all hobbies are feeling the hurt in the present economy. Paintball will probably always be a fringe sport. It will rise and fall with the economy just like everything else. I love paintball, and will probably always have something to do with it. I think 50 cal is good, it has it's place and will be a nice niche for something. It is just another option. I think it will grow, but it won't replace anything. You see pump tournaments, limited electronic tournaments, we will see 50 cal events soon enough I'm sure. I personally hope this just helps bring new people into the sport. Giving us a better growth opportunity. Let the kids play with 50 till they graduate to adult 68 caliber! No disrespect intended. I'd get a 50 cal set up for an ego and help out in a local youth league if they had one.
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Old 07-16-2013, 04:08 PM #91
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.50 cal could help save the sport. Paintball needs to be cheaper then a good round of golf. It cost me and my son a $80 to play per day and thats being conservative with paint. But the biggest problem I see is poor management of fields. People starting fields without investment money will fail just like any industry. To many people starting a business because they like paintball but have no business experience. Large fields will have no problem s making the switch.
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Old 07-16-2013, 05:59 PM #92
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Originally Posted by CrusaderPB View Post
Paintball is cheap.... missing is expensive.

Paintball's don't cost much to manufacture? Depends. Are you a business kinda guy?

Average margin in paintball is low... 20-30%. When you are talking about something that costs $40 (case of 2,000.... when I started, crappier paint was 80+ easily), you can figure it costs us fields about $28. That's $12 profit off of paint. That's not much my friend. Then entry is usually what, $20-30? (with air). So, you are paying $70. Subtract the cost of paint, employees, utilities, gas for compressor, maintenance, field upkeep.... god forbid you have an indoor place, you'll need a/c or heater, and I won't even start to talk about the margins on inventory items, since 68 stuff doesn't sell at all either. All players go online and order their stuff, because online dealers get a better deal on buying in volume from the manufacturers... so what costs us dealer $240 will cost online retailers $180, so they can sell for cheaper.

Our leasing, utilities and insurance cost, per month, ~$4,500 roughly. Payroll is roughly $1,200/month. Miscellaneous expenses I can safely put around $1,000. So we, as a field, need to cover $6,700 in expenses, per month.

Now ask yourself, what do I like better as a store and field owner- the kids who buy a case, come once a month, and just light up the newer/unskilled players, or the newer kids who buy 1 bag but can afford to come more often.

If you come 2 times a month, to my field, and buy 1 bag, I make more gross profit than I do you coming 1 time a month buying 1 case. Not gross sales, gross profit.


Now, the OP was talking about us stores and the cost of switching inventory... I can't even begin to imagine the cost to us. Switch our 160 fleet of markers and hoppers to .50cal? Figure.... $85 in cost to us per unit, that's $85 x 160. That's almost $14k. Christ.

My shop inventory... like I said earlier, it takes month to sell even something as lowly as a hopper. Stores don't make much money off of selling stuff, we do it as a courtesy and for convenience mostly.

50cal isn't the change that's needed in this industry. Further fragmentation is just stupid. A fundamental change in the thought process of players is needed. The first lesson you get in marketing- it costs about a quarter of the price to keep a customer than it costs to get new customers. So, we need a way to keep players in the game... so make the game more fun and enjoyable. The cost is low enough as it is... just change your thinking. Ever try playing pump? Hell, paintball isn't getting any cheaper, so why not try to cut your cost instead? Do you bring your harness out to the field? Try playing hopperball. I guarantee you'll have more fun... nothing like the good ol stories of going to shoot the last opponent then realizing your out of paint... or making the miraculous last-paintball-in-hopper gog shot.

That's the change that's needed. The costs need to be REDUCED FOR FIELDS AND STORES. Not the end users. You always have had the ability to reduce your own cost, paintball is a sport where you control what you use. Don't give me "I can't compete with only 1 bag" or "I didn't spend $1500 on a marker to shoot 1 bag". Those were YOUR choices, and besides... you bought that gun online most likely. Support your fields, and become a regular. Be friendly in the sport, make friends, make a new player feel awesome for a day. I as a field owner regularly give free entry to my regulars, to the people who help others out in the safety zone... those people make my place more enjoyable without a cost to me... so I make it worth their while. You don't have to work at a place to make it an awesome place... the community has a much bigger impact than anything I can do behind the counter anyway.

End rant. I'm tired and should be looking at ways to make this month's cost up here in freezing NE....
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Old 07-16-2013, 06:38 PM #93
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I have been playing for around 18 years now (Don't call me a old timer I started very young) I have seen fads come and go in this sport and still remember the argument that first semi autos will ruin the sport. Then it translated into electronic gus will ruin the sport. Then I remember when ramping would ruin the sport. I never voiced a opinion one way or the other when it came to those issues.

I find myself having a strong opinion on the .50 issue though! I do feel this will be a very bad direction for the sport to take. I am not here to argue the performance issue card (I believe that has been played enough here) I am here to argue the financial aspect of how it will effect us. Yes everyone who dosen"t fully read this thread will start by saying "you get twice the amount out a case for the same price" I want the people who read this thread to think of the space in between the player and the manufacturer. That's right the most important part of the game the field. In all the years I've played I have seen fields come and go. More seem to Go then come. Do the supporters of .50 think that field owners have the type of money it would take to turn all of there marker inventory into .50 when most barley have thier head above water as it is? All the other "Major" changes to the game as I stated earlier could be incorporated over a period of time with no serious investment needed up front. That's right people we are still in a recession. I am an industrial consultant I am in factories every day and have seen so many of them close thier doors for good. You can't tell me there are sill the same number of players out there that visit the field at the frequency they used to.

And also I would like to make one more point. People come and go in this sport. But those of us that truly love the game are here to stay most of us got old and have a life were responsibilty has kicked in. We are the ones who keep coming back to the field not day after day but year after year. Do you think that we would want to come back to the field if you make buy all new equipment??? I know my Geo and angel A1 fly were bought to keep me ahead of the curve for a while and I am not buying .50 marker to replace them!!!

there's no recession and don't worry because .50 is never gonna catch on anyway
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:55 AM #94
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Originally Posted by pballersrp78 View Post
.50 cal could help save the sport. Paintball needs to be cheaper then a good round of golf. It cost me and my son a $80 to play per day and thats being conservative with paint. But the biggest problem I see is poor management of fields. People starting fields without investment money will fail just like any industry. To many people starting a business because they like paintball but have no business experience. Large fields will have no problem s making the switch.
Exactly!
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Old 07-29-2013, 07:09 PM #95
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50 caliber or 68 if something doesn't happen to bring paint prices down then paintball will ultimately fail. I introduce 10 new people a year to the sport and maybe 1 of them end up playing for any length of time...number one reason they stop playing? They tell me the sport is to expensive.

Yes I know paint is cheaper now then it was but new people in the sport could give 2 turds what paint use to cost
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Old 07-29-2013, 09:19 PM #96
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Yes, it's sad that the sport evolved in such a way over the years that players feel they need to shoot and spend so much on paint. But in a sport where shooting more gives a player/team an advantage, without some sort of artificial limit, that is the way it's going to evolve. Paint prices could be cut in half again, and it would still end up being too expensive because everyone would just be non-stop on the trigger and that too will keep new players out of the sport.
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Old 07-30-2013, 05:25 PM #97
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
Yes, it's sad that the sport evolved in such a way over the years that players feel they need to shoot and spend so much on paint. But in a sport where shooting more gives a player/team an advantage, without some sort of artificial limit, that is the way it's going to evolve. Paint prices could be cut in half again, and it would still end up being too expensive because everyone would just be non-stop on the trigger and that too will keep new players out of the sport.
Bingo!

Think about it people...

In 1989 a case of 2000 rounds cost you $80. That was the cheap stuff. In today's money, that's $150. My three friends and I played STOCK CLASS pump. For those that don't know, stock class meant you had to use 12 gram CO2 cartridges and the feed tube for your paint had to be parallel to the barrel. The very nature of this setup limited your rate of fire. We could split a case, bringing the cost for paint to $20 per person and we usually came home with paint after the day was done. Cost per day was about $25 then so for under $50 you got a full day of paintball.

.50 cal is trying to bring that back but the issue still comes down to Rate Of Fire. Horizon is right. With the high ROF marker genie already out of the bottle reducing the cost of paint will only make those who currently play shoot more and drive away new players. Thus, to me, .50 cal isn't the solution.

I would like to see the return of stock class walk-on. I'd play it more, that's for sure! It would be cool to see a field get 40 stock class pumps and offer them for rent for stock class walk on only. Introducing players to a different way of playing that costs less but is a lot of fun...where having the top of the line marker doesn't come into play...would help this sport more than you know.

Horizon, would having 40 players who buy, collectively, 10 cases of paint but do so every week, be profitable for your field?
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Old 07-30-2013, 06:24 PM #98
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Horizon, would having 40 players who buy, collectively, 10 cases of paint but do so every week, be profitable for your field?
Sure, I basically have that. It's not the same 40 players every week (it's pretty rare to find recreational players that actually play every week), but we have at least 40 regular gear owners on a weekend who are repeat customers. On average, they only shoot about 500 paintballs per day, so that would be about 10 cases for 40 players.

We have a competitor who also has a very decent field and sells his paint considerably cheaper. He also has a fair number of regular gear owners that patronize his field. Those would be the players that want to shoot more paintballs and don't mind playing in an environment with more paint in the air. But our regulars don't like to go there, even though the paint is cheaper, because it's not as relaxed of an environment to play in. Less tactics and strategy and more spray and prey.
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Old 07-30-2013, 06:28 PM #99
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.50 cal is trying to bring that back but the issue still comes down to Rate Of Fire. Horizon is right. With the high ROF marker genie already out of the bottle reducing the cost of paint will only make those who currently play shoot more and drive away new players. Thus, to me, .50 cal isn't the solution.
We've actually started having 50 cal paintball games, but we are doing it a bit different. Everyone has to use the same gear (we would have like to have pumps, but no one makes 50 cal pumps except for the JT Splatmasters). No one is allowed to use their own gear. It's also all-inclusive, meaning one price pays for everything including paintballs. 250 for a three hour session or 500 for a full day session. We do sell extra paintballs (cause it sucks to run out and sit and watch your buddies play) but we encourage, in all our literature and at the field, for players to try to limit themselves to the paintballs included in the package. We are trying to create an environment where everyone is on a level playing field and no one is going hog wild. So far the response has been pretty positive. I predict within a year, we'll be doing more 50 cal rental business than 68 cal rental business.
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:12 PM #100
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But our regulars don't like to go there, even though the paint is cheaper, because it's not as relaxed of an environment to play in. Less tactics and strategy and more spray and prey.
Sorry Reiner, I have to ask you about this...

As I play in Victoria often, I honestly feel the exact opposite. VPA, to me, is a MUCH more relaxed, just for fun environment. I almost feel stressed playing at TNT. Not really sure why, it's just the overwhelming feeling I get while playing there. That's not saying I don't have fun, but I feel way more stressed than a regular player should.

Have you actually had a number of your regulars say this? I'm genuinely curious!
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:08 AM #101
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We've actually started having 50 cal paintball games, but we are doing it a bit different. Everyone has to use the same gear (we would have like to have pumps, but no one makes 50 cal pumps except for the JT Splatmasters). No one is allowed to use their own gear. It's also all-inclusive, meaning one price pays for everything including paintballs. 250 for a three hour session or 500 for a full day session. We do sell extra paintballs (cause it sucks to run out and sit and watch your buddies play) but we encourage, in all our literature and at the field, for players to try to limit themselves to the paintballs included in the package. We are trying to create an environment where everyone is on a level playing field and no one is going hog wild. So far the response has been pretty positive. I predict within a year, we'll be doing more 50 cal rental business than 68 cal rental business.
My question is, as a business owner why you would recommend the minimum paint consumption? I don't see how that benefits anyone in the end.
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:19 AM #102
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My question is, as a business owner why you would recommend the minimum paint consumption? I don't see how that benefits anyone in the end.
First of all, if everyone shoots the same amount of paint (with the same equipment) it levels the playing field. That benefits customers.

Playing in an environment that is not particularly extreme benefits the customers (remember, this is being marketed to first time and casual players).

Having (especially first time) customers have a good time instead of a frantic, stressed, panicked time means there is a much greater chance they will be back. That benefits the field owner and the industry as a whole.

Field owners who's main objective is paintball sales are in my mind, thinking short term rather than long term.

Our all-inclusive packages are priced such that we can make a small but reasonable profit supplying the facilities, rental gear, referees, and associated amenities that are needed to make a day be a good one for the customers.

In my opinion, it benefits everyone, including regulars who won't be taking part but will have more paintball players to play with in the future. I don't see a downside.
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:59 AM #103
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I know some of our local fields are doing the same kind of thing with JT Splatmasters. It's good to see the groups who may not otherwise play experiancing paintball.
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Old 07-31-2013, 11:50 AM #104
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First of all, if everyone shoots the same amount of paint (with the same equipment) it levels the playing field. That benefits customers.

Playing in an environment that is not particularly extreme benefits the customers (remember, this is being marketed to first time and casual players).

Having (especially first time) customers have a good time instead of a frantic, stressed, panicked time means there is a much greater chance they will be back. That benefits the field owner and the industry as a whole.

Field owners who's main objective is paintball sales are in my mind, thinking short term rather than long term.

Our all-inclusive packages are priced such that we can make a small but reasonable profit supplying the facilities, rental gear, referees, and associated amenities that are needed to make a day be a good one for the customers.

In my opinion, it benefits everyone, including regulars who won't be taking part but will have more paintball players to play with in the future. I don't see a downside.
I own an operate a field, and players get initially hooked to the "rush" of paintball. Higher paint consumption does not directly create a higher intensity environment. The idea that less paint being shot is going to directly allow everyone to have a better time is unrelated in my mind. A good business experience, with reffs that personalize themselves with customers, and an overall healthy interaction with employees will absolutely help. And field owners who focus on sales are the ones who typically stay in business longer, since it is the business sense that makes money. People don't get sucked into the sport of paintball because simply shooting the guns is fun, the rush of shooting someone before they shoot you is what initially got me hooked.
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Old 07-31-2013, 07:27 PM #105
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The rush is what hooks people on the game, however a person is not going to have fun if they have a rental tippmann and somebody is shooting psp ramping on them with a high end gun. Getting shot quickly for a new player makes them feel like they just went and tossed their money away in the trash can and they will not be back.

What a new player wants is equal grounds between both teams. They want to make the crazy move and shoot a person or two per game. Then they get hooked on that feeling of them getting those kills. Not stepping out of the start box, getting shot then turning around to sidelines to watch. That is a ruined day.

IMO if a field wants to keep new players coming back, Limit the walk-on games to no electronic hoppers or something like that. Let the beginners have their fun and they will be back.
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