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Old 01-22-2012, 08:20 PM #22
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:30 PM #23
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The poppet/spool I am thinking of is basically a WarMachine/Nova type of valve, then a separate action for the round because the loading of the sniper round will be interesting…

IIRC the Assault was a Nova with a sliding bolt, instead of the moving barrel? Or was it a hold forward closed bolt like on the Mayhem?

From what you have played with, how well does the round feed? The G11 and the Siaga have entirely different actions. Even the Tippmann SMG would be a totally different feed – though some sort of latch action could be tripped by air pressure to the spool to index the stripper clip.

I am just trying to think of the best action for a round I have only seen in magazines or here!

I can see, if the magazine has a shaped internal passage to hold the fins, then 5-10 rounds can be held in place with a spring for a bottom or side feed. For the G11, the drop in setup could be a few more then that, since they won’t have to have as much pressure on them.

So, lets look at advantages and disadvantages of the different setups:

Non-Clip

Rotary – Advantages: solid action, mid game refill could be easy. Rounds are in an independent tube, no bolt action possible, cycle at any angle.
Disadvantages: Side profile target is huge, rotary breech might be very complicated.
Variants: Thick clip chain action?

G11 – Advantages: Larger capacity, lighter action on paint. Unique and badass based on gun, like the P90.
Disadvantages: Larger marker. Possible seal on rotary action

Shotgun – Advantages: great profile and look, decent capacity, action could be very simple
Disadvantages: Action could be really difficult, stacking paint could be bad.

Clip

Siaga based – Advantages: known clip, easy changeout, rould held in independent tube
Disadvantages: Sniper round clips would need to be captured, or lost. Ejection system could be complicated.

Tippmann Stripper Clip – Advantages: Known tech, easy clip capture, boltless action possible
Disadvantages: Wide side profile.

Okay guys, feel free to tear into this, find which options you think I am right or wrong on, and add your experience or comments. This is not really well charted territory.

Damon, do you have any CAD software and/or Skills?
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:32 PM #24
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Yeah, the sliding bolt. Its a nice little design and saves me a noid if I'm able to make it all work together... It would charge the front chamber and then fire when you dump the rear chamber. then cycle the bolt, kick out the sleeve, then load the next...

Thought about the chain action. I'd just have to look at how to move the chain to the next round..

the G11 would be amazing... I will look into that more...

Siaga would need to either catch the sleeves or have them mass produced out of nylon. then they would be relatively disposable...

Never liked the Tippmann as much as the other options. Plus I'd have to have the stripper clip made...

Yes, I have CAD. I use Inventor. I'd love to have a copy of Solid Works, but my Inventor was free. and it allows me to do drawings, and simulate assemblies so I can check functionality and fit.... Then create drawings...

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Old 01-25-2012, 01:12 AM #25
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Well, I use inventor also. So we are set there.

The G11 will be big, but we can make it mostly hollow, maybe place a tank in the body. If you want the action and killer milsim let's go for it. Plus to get the look we could have most of the externals RP'ed. Picking up the Makerbot Replicator would just about cover any cost to have the exterior and parts machined, and you could make anything you wanted after that:

http://store.makerbot.com/replicator-404.html

And the cost for future guns, if you wanted to sell them, would be stupid cheap. Then the spool internals would drop right in, and could be well hidden in the body.

If I was in your shoes, I would jump at that. You can do 90% or so of the gun yourself then.

I will throw out a sketch or two (maybe just AutoCAD) of the idea for the clip/guide. My time is killer low right now, but we can throw some ideas back and forth.
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:13 AM #26
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I would highly advise against using the makerbot for paintguns. This uses the same ABS ribbon as one I used in school, which melts layers of plastic on top of each other. You can easily pull the layers apart with your hands, there are sometimes voids in the material, and the layers will most definitely NOT hold up against the air pressure.

This option would work, as long as you plan on putting an entire marker inside the body to seal against the pressure.
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:23 AM #27
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I think thats what hes saying, just make a body with the RP, not any load bearing/air holding parts. One thing to consider about an extruder-type 3d printer is the resolution. You can get pretty fine resolution with them, but you will always have a slightly "bumpy" surface because of the layers of plastic. You wont get a smooth surface. Im sure Josh and Damon know that though lol.
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:43 AM #28
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Yes, I(we) know that. Ha!

The RP body would be sanded, I figured that was a given. Along with an internal components made from aluminum.

The resolution from what I have seen is pretty good on that machine. As for the plastic parts pulling apart, I have seen lots of RP parts and machines, none have done that. On your machine the tip head is most likely not running at a high enough temperature.

SO, to be clear: The body, not the internals (parts that hold pressure) could be done RP. The body would need to be sanded (so would a aluminum body.) The internals would be simple to machine aluminum. Doing the body RP is for a cheaper, easier body that would be light.

The barrel, breech, valve would be metal. The grip maybe also. The rest doesn't matter all that much. So make it easy and cheap RP. Shoot, I would love to build a fun future gun of some sort, even if the guts are taken from a known gun. Using a RP machine to build, say, a Han Solo pistol replica around something would be fantastic. Even if it only had 5 shots.

The potential for allot more fun kit, especially from a company called Scenario Dreams, would be kinda amazing.
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:33 AM #29
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^^ True that. Just some simple, black ABS body kits would even have a huge pull. I wonder how it would hold up to a direct hit?? I wonder how thin you could get it
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:48 AM #30
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Look at ABS plastic airsoft guns for an example - it would be easy to make them thick enough. If you built a standard blow forward drivetrain or use a Tiberius arms setup you could build allot of guns and not have to worry about the internals. It would be kinda brilliant. And making a new gun would just require some CAD time, then an afternoon run of the body.

I think we just gave Damon a new business model...
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:49 PM #31
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I'm like the direction we're going!!!! Now to get some solid plans in CAD and see what happens...
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Old 01-29-2012, 01:04 PM #32
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So I thought I would post some pics of my sleeves in the Siaga Mag. I'm feeling stronger and stronger about loading this way. I don't think any other way will be as reliable. Indexing the sniper Round is next to impossible... If anyone has a way, Show me a pic and I'll consider...









These sleeves are aluminum, but the final ones will be Plastic and fully reusable. Plus would could easily insert a First Strike round and use it. I think this is the BEST feeding solution for non-spherical rounds...

and if you are wondering why the sleeve is so long, its because they have to fit inside the Siaga mag properly. It would be nice to have them shorter, but building a mag from scratch would be very costly.
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Old 01-29-2012, 02:07 PM #33
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what about something that collect the sleeves from the ejector?
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Old 01-29-2012, 02:16 PM #34
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Yes, that would be nice. But pretty easy. Just need a small bag at the eject point.. Also, the sleeves would be super cheap if I lost some its not a big deal.
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:05 AM #35
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yeah, but even a bag isnt needed you could modify a mag by cutting it down and have it catch them as they drop.

no loss,

i guess this stems from the 10 rnd tubes i lose on the field and that i hate replacing them.
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Old 01-30-2012, 01:41 PM #36
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How would the Magazine catch the used sleeves? Or do you mean to have the sleeves connected like the SMG? That would require molding.... If not, please elaborate...
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:52 PM #37
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Hey Damon, if you don't mind me asking, how are you thinking about ejecting those shells, considering they don't have the rims of the standard Shot Shell? I assume you are going to run the bolt through them to chamber them directly into the barrel.

These shot shells are under a buck a pop...they could easily be drilled out.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/c....aspx?a=518023


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Old 01-30-2012, 06:47 PM #38
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I won't actually load the round. Just seal on each end and fire the round out. that makes kicking out the sleeve easy.

My sleeves would be around $0.05 each.
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Old 01-31-2012, 03:12 AM #39
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Won't that necessitate a really large bore barrel so that you don't risk mismatching the chambers when they index against each other?
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:14 AM #40
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No, not in my experience. Its the exact same concept I use on my Cylinder Sniper rifle and I've never had a ball break. But alignment is critical and proper prep of the boring just as important... Although I hadn't thought about if I would want to use Inserts in the future... Might have to do some adjustments to supports inserts. thanks!!!
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Old 01-31-2012, 06:53 PM #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damonwill View Post
How would the Magazine catch the used sleeves? Or do you mean to have the sleeves connected like the SMG? That would require molding.... If not, please elaborate...
split the mag in half and use it as a cage, just for a low profile.
there will be some chute feet troubles to overcome, but with planning i can be overcome
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:08 PM #42
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interesting...
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