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Old 01-23-2012, 04:54 PM #274
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When is this Nick person going to realize that Chris has thought much longer and harder into this topic than he has? Clearly you're not getting it. If you cannot realize the potential advantages of a paint cap, you are clearly too dense to even bother conversing with.
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Old 01-23-2012, 04:58 PM #275
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Originally Posted by raehl View Post
SGMA gets their numbers by sending out a survey to a representative sample of households that asks them what sports they've participated in and extrapolates participation from there.
Thanks, that clear it up.

It also means that in SGMA, paintball is one big category, so statistically, the entire drop could be rentals, or scenario, or tournament.... we have no way of telling them apart..... and without being able to do that, we have no way to using SGMA information as a guide to finding out what is wrong with tournament paintball.

I am wondering why "CORE" has fewer repetitions that "8+"?
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:00 PM #276
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Originally Posted by OhIoCoNtRActKilLa View Post
When is this Nick person going to realize that Chris has thought much longer and harder into this topic than he has? Clearly you're not getting it. If you cannot realize the potential advantages of a paint cap, you are clearly too dense to even bother conversing with.
Maybe I have thought harder and longer "into" this topic than him... you have no way of knowing, as you do not know who or what I am

But, always great to see a fan voice his support publicly
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:04 PM #277
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i like the idea of making it local first then national, but the gameplay doesnt look fun or fun to watch
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:08 PM #278
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Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff View Post
Maybe I have thought harder and longer "into" this topic than him... you have no way of knowing, as you do not know who or what I am

But, always great to see a fan voice his support publicly
Well, unless you operate and/or greatly contribute to one of the top 5 leagues in the country, I would safely assume that your experiences related to this topic are far more limited in comparison to Chris'.

Which you may, so please, enlighten me as to why we should consider your ideas to be anywhere near as effective.
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:12 PM #279
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Originally Posted by OhIoCoNtRActKilLa View Post
Well, unless you operate and/or greatly contribute to one of the top 5 leagues in the country, I would safely assume that your experiences related to this topic are far more limited in comparison to Chris'.

Which you may, so please, enlighten me as to why we should consider your ideas to be anywhere near as effective.
I don't think Nick is in any way uninformed or his opinions ill-considered, for a European.

I keep hoping he'll say something that I had not considered before but no luck so far.

Anyway, I think Nick just puts a priority on different things than I do. One of the things I like about limited paint is it prevents a player from simply holding a lane - you have to choose when to shoot instead of just choosing a direction. Nick thinks losing the "skill" of laning is not an advantage but a drawback. He's wrong , but that's still close enough to the realm of preference to not be ill-informed.

Limited paint also keeps all of today's equipment relevant, as with a limited paint format there will still be critical moments in the game where you really do want to cough out 12 bps, whether that be the breakout or seeing someone make a move.

Now, that OTHER guy....

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Last edited by raehl : 01-23-2012 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:14 PM #280
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Maybe I have thought harder and longer "into" this topic than him... you have no way of knowing, as you do not know who or what I am

But, always great to see a fan voice his support publicly
Im sure people thought longer and hard on how to build an airplane than the wright brothers did. it didn't change the fact that they were the ones who created the first airplane.

It doesn't matter how much experience you have when you are doing something new.
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:17 PM #281
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Why is capped semi auto the way to go? Because it takes skill to shoot with your bad hand

How is it easily policed?
NPPL is doing it right now... the cap puts a cap on cheating even if you do cheat your not cheating better than 15 and you only put yourself/team at risk

And not least:
- Why on earth would you go into a high school to explain technological equipment rules?
.Im not explaining technical equipment rules. Im telling them this is what the "industry" call's the sport of paintball and they laugh. They make up 50% + of your players, They are the future of the sport. They are your number 1 source of advertising / spreading the word of the sport. Better question is why are you not asking them????

The point is if they dont like what they are hearing they arnt going to go to the paintball field to try it. In fact they get pushed away. The more technical you make it the harder it is to understand, thus they dont listen and they dont go.

No they don't dude.... they sell the easy message "Drive fast - look cool - get chicks" - it's just that easy

exactly the easy message. Doing things the easy way gets you nowhere. Doing things the smart way grows the sport.

The more I get thinking about this chess like format the more I start to like it.
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:34 PM #282
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NPPL is doing it right now... the cap puts a cap on cheating even if you do cheat your not cheating better than 15 and you only put yourself/team at risk
So your answer to the question of "How is it enforced now?" is "The same way they enforce ramping!" ??

I simply can not fathom how anyone can provide that answer with a straight face.

If you need to limit the BPS to cut down on cheating, then clearly you are not enforcing one ball per pull.

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Old 01-23-2012, 05:38 PM #283
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first get rid of the draft unless you can afford it for the whole year to travel second if you do a combine do it regional and break it down to where you have midwest, south , southeast, south west , rockies etc then make two cofnerences
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:43 PM #284
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the only semi-major league that still uses it switched to capped semi-auto, eliminating any advantage supposedly skilled players had.
Because 15 semi is so easy to shoot. besides everyone is only pulling like 4 bps, but ramping way outta control up to 15...

Chris I try and see your way in things but you just spew some.. stuff sometimes

I get that you can't stand the human error thing, or spending any extra money on something that is less enforceable. Just because you cant do it does not mean it can't be done, you are not actually all knowing!

I bet at the pro level there are just as many cheaters in regaurds to ROF and modes as in the nppl. the only thing psp has that helps is a $1000 radar gun and ramping for everyone so they dont have to worry about the lower divisions as much.

ramping is not anywhere near the end all, it's a good cheap solution for large series to use.

I would prefer semi since it is much more difficult to do. It is more difficult chris. it is. more difficult. semi. harder than ramping. not as easy. it is easier to pull the trigger 1x a second than at least over 10 to get to our cap. its more difficult while loading, running, diving, sliding... when is the last time you saw a pro serve tea? go to nppl, you will see it because not everyone can shoot semi. it is a skill. call it capped semi ramping, I dont care what you call it, it's more difficult all day every day.
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:05 PM #285
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Originally Posted by raehl View Post
I don't think Nick is in any way uninformed or his opinions ill-considered, for a European.
Damn colonials

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Originally Posted by raehl View Post

I keep hoping he'll say something that I had not considered before but no luck so far.
I am certain you have considered it, I just think we want different outcomes, and thus, we disagree

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Anyway, I think Nick just puts a priority on different things than I do. One of the things I like about limited paint is it prevents a player from simply holding a lane - you have to choose when to shoot instead of just choosing a direction. Nick thinks losing the "skill" of laning is not an advantage but a drawback. He's wrong , but that's still close enough to the realm of preference to not be ill-informed.

Limited paint also keeps all of today's equipment relevant, as with a limited paint format there will still be critical moments in the game where you really do want to cough out 12 bps, whether that be the breakout or seeing someone make a move.
Maybe you should qualify what you thinks constitutes a "skill" in paintball, so I better understand where we differ.

Being able to dominate your opponent with well executed shooting, to me, is an important skill.

I just think it has become too dominant a skill, and that some power should be removed from it.

But, the real discrepancy between our solutions, to limit shooting and cost (which I think we both agree is a good end goal), is that you believe limiting paint, will change play from the get go, while I think it will not for the first minute of the game, and then it will.

And honestly, I do not see any good argument for advocating a high ROF?

If we examine your reasons given for advocating a paint limit:

- Cost is too high
- Kids are getting shot too much and scared away
- Games have gotten stale with people holding lanes at 10-12 BPS

Then I see nothing in there that would not be solved by capping ROF at 6.

Your idea, would put more emphasis on strategy, while my idea would put more emphasis on individual skill.

So yes, I would like paintball to still be a highly technical game, where individual technical skills are rewarded, and where you need to practice regularly, rather than just being born with a good "field awareness"

Paintball is not supposed to be easy, at tournament level IMHO

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Now, that OTHER guy....
That case, I have given up
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:10 PM #286
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Originally Posted by raehl View Post
So your answer to the question of "How is it enforced now?" is "The same way they enforce ramping!" ??

I simply can not fathom how anyone can provide that answer with a straight face.

If you need to limit the BPS to cut down on cheating, then clearly you are not enforcing one ball per pull.
- Chris
As we have already covered this is a very difficult thing to do. That is why it simply is not done and other restrictions are put in place to help police it and a limit is set

Ramping is logical but they way Ramping is used now is not.
3 pulls in one second then off we go (or something like that).... most can do this with one finger. It takes away the whole point of learning to shoot with both hands. It just wastes paint
... not that that wasnt the plan in the first place......
It eliminates the importance of the snap, aiming with your bad hand and you just shoot more to compensate for it. The reaction time is too quick to allow people with skill prey apon those who are weak with their bad hand.

If ramping started up more around 10 bps It wold make more sense but this just leaves the discussion open to the whole switch mis fire thing again..gez.. and thus I say no ramping because it just confusses people. its hard to explain , it scares people away with the BPS count and takes a skill/advantage out of the game.

either here nor there. IMO ramping will be the standard in years to come. it doesnt make it right but the "industry" loves $$$.

(why let everyone shoot inbetween 0-15bps when we can make them all shoot 15bps and call it more fair... )
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:10 PM #287
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Because 15 semi is so easy to shoot. besides everyone is only pulling like 4 bps, but ramping way outta control up to 15...

Chris I try and see your way in things but you just spew some.. stuff sometimes

I get that you can't stand the human error thing, or spending any extra money on something that is less enforceable. Just because you cant do it does not mean it can't be done, you are not actually all knowing!

I bet at the pro level there are just as many cheaters in regaurds to ROF and modes as in the nppl. the only thing psp has that helps is a $1000 radar gun and ramping for everyone so they dont have to worry about the lower divisions as much.

ramping is not anywhere near the end all, it's a good cheap solution for large series to use.

I would prefer semi since it is much more difficult to do. It is more difficult chris. it is. more difficult. semi. harder than ramping. not as easy. it is easier to pull the trigger 1x a second than at least over 10 to get to our cap. its more difficult while loading, running, diving, sliding... when is the last time you saw a pro serve tea? go to nppl, you will see it because not everyone can shoot semi. it is a skill. call it capped semi ramping, I dont care what you call it, it's more difficult all day every day.
I totally agree semi is harder and takes more skill.

But, I am sorry to say, even if the NPPL is based on true semi, they have no real way of policing it (there is a difference between having rules in place, and being able to police them).

If someone came up with a easy and cheap way to police true semi, I would be the first to advocate it.... it just doesn't exist.

I believe the NPPL sticking to semi, is more a marketing ploy than anything else, to attract the player populace that dislike ramping.... just like sticking to 7man, for the very same reasons. It's not that they think - truly - their way is "better", it's just where their market is... if they ran the same format and gun rules as the PSP, there would be fewer areas to tell them apart.

They are not REALLY policing the gun rules, at least not effectively.

When talking about the future, we have to be careful to come up with game formats and gun rules, that can be easily policed, because, a format should not only be about national events, it should also be about rental fields and local events, to truly be successful.

The key to growing our sport again, is that everyone is playing the same game, top to bottom.... that is how we get more transtitions, from rental customers into gun owners, into tournament players.
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:39 PM #288
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Because 15 semi is so easy to shoot.
Exactly! It's *EXTREMELY* easy to do!

Shooting 15 bps in a NPPL event with an electronic gun in "semi-auto" is very easy. Anyone can do it.

I can do it.

You can do it.

My little sister can do it.

My mom can do it.

*EVERYONE* can do it.

If *EVERYONE* can do it, it's not a skill.

The only people who can't do it are people who set up their guns wrong.


Guns on a PSP field are shooting 12.5 bps 3-ball-per-pull ramping. Guns on a NPPL field are shooting 15 bps 1.5-2 ball per pull ramping. The only other difference is NPPL has a few rules in their rulebook that are never used until somebody wants to screw someone else out of a season championship (see: Arsenal 2009)

Quote:
I would prefer semi since it is much more difficult to do. It is more difficult chris. it is. more difficult. semi. harder than ramping.
Yes, shooting in semi-auto is harder to do than shooting with ramping.

But very few people on a NPPL field have guns that are shooting semi-auto.


- Chris
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:40 PM #289
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If we examine your reasons given for advocating a paint limit:

- Cost is too high
- Kids are getting shot too much and scared away
- Games have gotten stale with people holding lanes at 10-12 BPS

Then I see nothing in there that would not be solved by capping ROF at 6.
Nick, you've mentioned that Chris' limiting paint idea would alienate many competitive paintball's current players. Do you thing 6 bps would be met with less resistance?
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:54 PM #290
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Nick, you've mentioned that Chris' limiting paint idea would alienate many competitive paintball's current players. Do you thing 6 bps would be met with less resistance?
At first no, any change in paintball always meets a lot of resistance, we are a conservative bunch, for supposedly being a fringe sport

However, once people realise it does not change the game play significantly, only the expenditure, and that it puts more emphasis on skills than what we have currently, I believe it will be welcomed.

When we went from 15 to 10 BPS in Europe, there was outrage and doomsday prophecies about killing the sport as we knew it..... and in reality, nothing much happened, except for paint usage dropping per game.

My biggest concern about Chris' proposal, is that it will change the nature of the game significantly, and I personally do not believe it is flawed, apart from the ROF.
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:58 PM #291
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Nick and Chris -

You guys (along with Baca for pointing me over here) certainly have given a lot of viewpoint and ideas out there.

My question/comment is this - how would one adapt these rules from D5 thru the pro level? Does everyone play with the same set of rules, or is it a stratified progression with increasing level of play.

I see both sides of the coin, but I must admit that the idea of 6 bps for D5 and gradually getting to 12.5 for pro is particularly interesting to me. Of course, didn't the PSP try something akin to this 2 years ago?

So, Chris and Nick: How would you adapt your proposed limits to the various levels?
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:59 PM #292
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Exactly! It's *EXTREMELY* easy to do!

Shooting 15 bps in a NPPL event with an electronic gun in "semi-auto" is very easy. Anyone can do it.

I can do it.

You can do it.

My little sister can do it.

My mom can do it.

*EVERYONE* can do it.

If *EVERYONE* can do it, it's not a skill.

The only people who can't do it are people who set up their guns wrong.


Guns on a PSP field are shooting 12.5 bps 3-ball-per-pull ramping. Guns on a NPPL field are shooting 15 bps 1.5-2 ball per pull ramping. The only other difference is NPPL has a few rules in their rulebook that are never used until somebody wants to screw someone else out of a season championship (see: Arsenal 2009)



Yes, shooting in semi-auto is harder to do than shooting with ramping.

But very few people on a NPPL field have guns that are shooting semi-auto.


- Chris
extremely easy with a bouncing gun....
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:03 PM #293
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Originally Posted by raehl View Post
Yes, shooting in semi-auto is harder to do than shooting with ramping.

But very few people on a NPPL field have guns that are shooting semi-auto.


- Chris
- by your definition of semi auto that is

If I was to say that ANY movement of the gun and or trigger, relative to the trigger finger, constitutes a trigger pull, that would be different

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding your point about semi not really being semi, because you are being a little obtuse about it

So, in fairness, most people in the NPPL ARE shooting semi auto, just not the way you choose to define it

However, the rules and enforcement still leave a highway of opportunity to cheat, if you choose to do so, with very little risk of getting caught.
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:11 PM #294
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Originally Posted by lab79rat View Post
Nick and Chris -

You guys (along with Baca for pointing me over here) certainly have given a lot of viewpoint and ideas out there.

My question/comment is this - how would one adapt these rules from D5 thru the pro level? Does everyone play with the same set of rules, or is it a stratified progression with increasing level of play.

I see both sides of the coin, but I must admit that the idea of 6 bps for D5 and gradually getting to 12.5 for pro is particularly interesting to me. Of course, didn't the PSP try something akin to this 2 years ago?

So, Chris and Nick: How would you adapt your proposed limits to the various levels?
Personally, I see great promise in paintball - finally - making an effort to make the game the same, across the bord and top to bottom.

1. Unified format
2. All divisions playing the same rules
3. Using a format that works both locally and nationally

So, I do not subscribe to the idea of a tiered system, where fire rates and/or formats change, as you progress.

I do not see the need for it, and to some extent, I see it as damaging to our sport growing, as we should want the local kids, at their field, playing the exactly same game as "the Pros" - not some diluted hybrid.

Today, we are a far cry from creating that situation, but we cannot expect field owners around the world, to start building tournament style fields, unless we supply them with a format that helps them grow their business, through regular loyal customers and local equipment sales.

We (the sport), can create the format..... then it is down to the manufacturers and distributors, to make a case for it being a good business model for fields, and then it is down to the fields to build it.

Once we get to that point, we can start to compare ourselves to other sports.... meanwhile, what we really are, is a little corner of war enacters, that have evolved into a sport, while leaving the rest of the enacters behind.... still playing war or star trek, or whatever, at their local scenario based field.
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