[pbdude911]

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

You are forgetting it's 2 fingers

Also, I wonder if whoever that modified the exact information, knew exactly what muscles, joints and ligaments are used when pulling a trigger.... and I wonder if it took into account the force needed, as that is different from trigger to trigger, and will affect speed.

It may just be something some dude dreamed up some time, without the proper theoretical background

No I am not forgetting thats its 2 fingers, thats what the person who origionaly wrote up the study took into consideration...

[pbdude911]

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

I would actually like to know how the SGMA reach their numbers.

Personally, I have never heard of a field being polled by them, and I am wondering if manufactuers readily give out sales numbers to them?

Does anyone know?

Ok you ask for actual facts, i provide them by the biggest sporting goods organization in the world and now you question them... They must be wrong wright? because their numbers dont fit your POV?

[pbdude911]

And if you people really think people naturally can shoot 20 BPS, let start making videos of you next to a stop watch (so we know you just didnt speed up the video) pulling as fast as you possibly can in your perfect conditions (sitting, not running, not tired, not crouching) however you can position yourself. then we slow it down and see exactly how fast you can shoot..

[KMA]

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

You are forgetting it's 2 fingers

Originally Posted by KMA

I wouldn't be surprised at all that the maximum speed a person can move a finger joint is 13 pulls per second (that is very fast!), but most modern electronic paintball markers allow you to alternate two fingers, and effectively double the theoretical max speed.

[pbdude911]

Originally Posted by KMA

That was for 2 fingers... yes we had electronic gun even way back in 03 and 04

[KMA]

Originally Posted by pbdude911

And if you people really think people naturally can shoot 20 BPS, let start making videos of you next to a stop watch (so we know you just didnt speed up the video) pulling as fast as you possibly can in your perfect conditions (sitting, not running, not tired, not crouching) however you can position yourself. then we slow it down and see exactly how fast you can shoot..

Who said 20? And now the person has to be tired, running and crouching for it to be legit? In the end, you don't need to see a video... it sounds like you have all the information you need in the study you referenced. Hard to argue with those "facts"...

Originally Posted by pbdude911

That was for 2 fingers... yes we had electronic gun even way back in 03 and 04

I was responding to Nick. And, yeah I was already old and playing for a while "way back in 03". My first electro was a bad *** custom Rainmaker.

[pbdude911]

Originally Posted by KMA

Who said 20? And now the person has to be tired, running and crouching for it to be legit? In the end, you don't need to see a video... it sounds like you have all the information you need in the study you referenced. Hard to argue with those "facts"...

No no no, Im saying you can set it up however you would like, you DONT have to be tired or crouched or anything, you make the absolute best conditions for yourself.

A few pages back some of these kids were saying ridiculous numbers, one guy said 18, but the fact is everyone thinks its higher than 13.. so lets see?

I like how everyone complains about my lack of "facts" when no one else have given a shed of evidence for their claims...



I was responding to Nick. And, yeah I was already old and playing for a while "way back in 03".
Sorry misread it then

also my first marker, i bought new a year before the first electros came out?

[pbdude911]

I have quoted stats directly from the APPA which chris is the president of.. the SGMA.. every one else says

"oh, your facts are opinions so you are wrong.. but i have nothing to back up this"

Talk about hypocrites eh?

[KMA]

Originally Posted by pbdude911

I like how everyone complains about my lack of "facts" when no one else have given a shed of evidence for their claims...

Here's what you are missing... If you stated you found it difficult to believe that people can shoot over 13 bps without bounce or electronic assistance, it could be considered a reasonable position. But you apparently feel it is not even possible based on some study about baseball, and because you have not seen it yourself.

Alternatively, I'm convinced it is possible due to my own experience, testing and other albeit anecdotal evidence. You chose not to believe me (which is fine), but to be so supremely confident as to say others are wrong is where some people take issue. To be honest, you come across pretty intelligent to me, but it sounds like you are a bit on the younger side. Believe me, that is not meant to be an insult, but your vim and vigor, and desire to prove something you can't do yourself to be impossible sounds like youthful energy to me.

Originally Posted by pbdude911

also my first marker, i bought new a year before the first electros came out?

[pbdude911]

Originally Posted by KMA

Here's what you are missing... If you stated you found it difficult to believe that people can shoot over 13 bps without bounce or electronic assistance, it could be considered a reasonable position. But you apparently feel it is not even possible based on some study about baseball, and because you have not seen it yourself.

Alternatively, I'm convinced it is possible due to my own experience, testing and other albeit anecdotal evidence. You chose not to believe me (which is fine), but to be so supremely confident as to say others are wrong is where some people take issue. To be honest, you come across pretty intelligent to me, but it sounds like you are a bit on the younger side. Believe me, that is not meant to be an insult, but your vim and vigor, and desire to prove something you can't do yourself to be impossible sounds like youthful energy to me.

This was a huge debate years and years ago, we have been through it over and over again already up until ramping was allowed, then the information was pointless. But the facts were that joints couldn't move more than 15 mph, doesn't matter what sport you are playing, your limbs just can't move that fast.

It equated and was widely accepted by everyone back then that the reals bps a person could pull was 13. people only got higher than that when bounce was factored in. or with cheater boards.

BTW im not as young as you think, I just am tired of people complaining about my lack of facts and call me ignorant (btw chris is the first person to start the name calling if you read back through all the post) because my views and opinions were different, every one asked for facts on my "stats" i provided them from both chris's own company as well as the leading company in sports statistics for every major sport, despite the fact no one has brought forth evidence I'm wrong...

So this thread has gone like this:
I state something
People say I'm wrong and i have nothing to back it up
I post info to back up my claims, some of the info is directly from one of the guys disputing me
people say I'm wrong and ignorant
no one else puts forth information to back their claims but at the very same time my information is opinions and theirs is facts...


The truth is it doesn't matter.. the sport is dying (don't dispute me look at the FACTS), 40% of the people who play more than 8 times a year have left according to THEIR FACTS AND STUDIES... You can blame it on economics but no other equipment intensive sport has declined as much (AGAIN THIS IS NOT OPINION LOOK AT THE STUDY)..

The only thing that has really changed is not the ROF a gun shoots, but the ROF the guns are allowed to shoot. Guns haunt gotten any faster, its just allowed now... Paint at local fields hasn't got any more expensive, we just have to buy more now.

My problem is not with the sport, its with the people who run it. Hell not to long ago mr PSP himself would come on here pretending he the all knowing god and his decisions were always the right ones despite the fact the PSP lost money every single year. x-ball(this is coming strait from the creator) was suppose to bring in money for the "Pro's" and get paintball mainstream and on TV to start generating revenue... hasn't happened yet has it? No college recognizes their PB team as an official sport (club yes, sport no).. There are no scholarships or money donated to it.

so obviously the "big wigs" if you can call them that have not succeeded but were suppose to just fallow the leader and everything they say is what goes?

[pbdude911]

Originally Posted by KMA

You stated i sounded young.. i have been playing a long time, the year after i started the angel and shocker were introduced..

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by pbdude911

Ok you ask for actual facts, i provide them by the biggest sporting goods organization in the world and now you question them... They must be wrong wright? because their numbers dont fit your POV?

Again, you misinterpret

I am not saying they are wrong, I am just saying I am honestely interested in how they generate them.

You see, because of paintballs very global and also very maverick nature, our sport is notoriously hard to track, and also, there are very large geographical differences, which apply.

For instance, if you added asian numbers into the eqution, the numbers would change dramatically, which would not happen for Hockey, because it is a long established sport, and thus less prone to spikes in new markets.

So I am wondering if the numbers they have are representative, and of what they are representative, and how they are generated.

Let's say, for instance, that the SGMA participation numbers are based on a national US average, by:

- Polling participation at 10 fields in each state.
OR
- Polling a field per 1 million capita, in each state
OR
- Calculating X users per retail sale of a paintball gun

..... the outcome would be vastly different for paintball, depending on which method was applied.... and there are many other possible ways of reaching the numbers.

For that reason, it is interesting to find out how those numbers were generated

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by KMA

Missed that part, my bad

[Kaolinite]

- As I have said before a paint cap is needed so both teams can start the game on even terms.

- capped Semi auto is the only way to go. Shooting with your weak hand is a skill. It is easily policed.

anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Go to a local highschool and try explain rampinging to the masses. You will be hear. "Thats stupied" , "why" , " That must hurt" , "You must shoot so much paint"

and the answers you give them are , yes it is stupied, because it stops cheating..they quickly say..well shooting faster than what you can pull is cheating?, No, Yes and it cost alot of money too.

this is the type of discussion young people have with their peers at the work place and in school. Go try it for yourself grab someone off the street and try to explain ramping. You will be met with blank stares, questions, most people saying it is down right retarded.

now
To change the topic

- What sport/ hobby does paintball closes compare. IMO the game of chess.
Maybe as a hobby we should look towards is chess to create a format.

One player is dubbed king. When that player is eliminated the game is over. We could keep the race2 format, This gives an "object" for spectators to watch, This would help turn certain players into "superstars" for the sport to project to the masses. The game would stay some what the same.

just throwing idea's out there. Anything is better than the paintball of today.

[pbdude911]

Originally Posted by Nick Brockdorff

Again, you misinterpret

I am not saying they are wrong, I am just saying I am honestely interested in how they generate them.

You see, because of paintballs very global and also very maverick nature, our sport is notoriously hard to track, and also, there are very large geographical differences, which apply.

For instance, if you added asian numbers into the eqution, the numbers would change dramatically, which would not happen for Hockey, because it is a long established sport, and thus less prone to spikes in new markets.

So I am wondering if the numbers they have are representative, and of what they are representative, and how they are generated.

Let's say, for instance, that the SGMA participation numbers are based on a national US average, by:

- Polling participation at 10 fields in each state.
OR
- Polling a field per 1 million capita, in each state
OR
- Calculating X users per retail sale of a paintball gun

..... the outcome would be vastly different for paintball, depending on which method was applied.... and there are many other possible ways of reaching the numbers.

For that reason, it is interesting to find out how those numbers were generated

That you will have to ask them about.. But the number that have been quoted by the industry have always come from this company.

[jonotwist]

Originally Posted by raehl

I mean, when you run fast, are you thinking, left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot....?


- Chris

how else am i to avoid falling if i forget to bring one foot forward.


doesnt work i tried it.

[Nick Brockdorff]

PBdude911:

You are taking this waaaaay too peronally

The reason I'm debating your numbers, is because you have a tendency to just bunch up a lot of different things into one, and then put your own spin on it.

For instance:

You say 8+ attendance is down according to SGMA - That is correct.

You then, armed with that information, go on to say the sport is dieing, and ramping is to blame..... and this is where you lose your reader, because you have no empirical proof for that second statement... it's made up.... and when your proof is questioned, you return to the first part as proof.

First, you have to realise that paintball is very very segmented, and a LOT of the 8+ times a year users you refer to, are not playing the "sport".... they are rental customers, or they are into scenario games, or they bought a Walmart pistol at $ 20, and shoot it 9 times a year in their back yard.

You have no way of knowing what the numbers cover, until you get into the detail of it - and that requires knowledge of how it is generated.

Secondly, you have no way of knowing ramping is to blame... there is no proof of it.

Personally, I tend to agree with the fact that fire rates play a big factor in the sports decline.... but I have no proof of it, and I am not going to try to find it, as it does not exist, until you invest months into interviews and building up a database of information, which is detailed enough to be usable.

So, instead of saying it IS so - I limit myself to saying "I think it is so"

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by pbdude911

That you will have to ask them about.. But the number that have been quoted by the industry have always come from this company.

Yes, because they were always good numbers..... since they stopped being good, they stopped quoting them

Oh, and since you are the one preaching them as gospel, it should be you checking how the numbers are generated.

I think you would be surprised

[Kaolinite]

- As I have said before a paint cap is needed so both teams can start the game on even terms.

- capped Semi auto is the only way to go. Shooting with your weak hand is a skill. It is easily policed.

anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Go to a local highschool and try explain rampinging to the masses. You will be hear. "Thats stupied" , "why" , " That must hurt" , "You must shoot so much paint"

and the answers you give them are , yes it is stupied, because it stops cheating..they quickly say..well shooting faster than what you can pull is cheating?, No, Yes and it cost alot of money too.

this is the type of discussion young people have with their peers at the work place and in school. Go try it for yourself grab someone off the street and try to explain ramping. You will be met with blank stares, questions, most people saying it is down right retarded.

now
To change the topic

- What sport/ hobby does paintball closes compare. IMO the game of chess.
Maybe as a hobby we should look towards is chess to create a format.

One player is dubbed king. When that player is eliminated the game is over. We could keep the race2 format, This gives an "object" for spectators to watch, This would help turn certain players into "superstars" for the sport to project to the masses. The game would stay some what the same.

just throwing idea's out there. Anything is better than the paintball of today.

[Nick Brockdorff]

Originally Posted by Kaolinite

- As I have said before a paint cap is needed so both teams can start the game on even terms.

- capped Semi auto is the only way to go. Shooting with your weak hand is a skill. It is easily policed.

anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Go to a local highschool and try explain rampinging to the masses. You will be hear. "Thats stupied" , "why" , " That must hurt" , "You must shoot so much paint"

and the answers you give them are , yes it is stupied, because it stops cheating..they quickly say..well shooting faster than what you can pull is cheating?, No, Yes and it cost alot of money too.

this is the type of discussion young people have with their peers at the work place and in school. Go try it for yourself grab someone off the street and try to explain ramping. You will be met with blank stares, questions, most people saying it is down right retarded.

- How is 10 BPS capped ramping "uneven"?
- Why is capped semi auto the way to go?
- How is it easily policed?

And not least:

- Why on earth would you go into a high school to explain technological equipment rules?

No other tech heavy sport does that, it's not why people get into it. Do you think motorsports clubs attact members by holding seminars on fuel rules and tire compounds?

No they don't dude.... they sell the easy message "Drive fast - look cool - get chicks" - it's just that easy

Equipment rules are for us nerds to sort out, not for the masses - they just want a gun that shoots to the maximum capacity of the rules, and they are happy campers

[raehl]

NCPA is a non-profit organization.

SGMA gets their numbers by sending out a survey to a representative sample of households that asks them what sports they've participated in and extrapolates participation from there.

Semi-auto is not, at all, easily policed. That's why the only semi-major league that still uses it switched to capped semi-auto, eliminating any advantage supposedly skilled players had. If they could police it there would have been no reason for the change.

If electronic guns are allowed on the field, then no matter what the rules are, the guns on the field are either shooting capped ramping or uncapped ramping. That's just the plain reality of the situation.

- Chris