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Old 12-11-2010, 09:51 PM #1
FlyGuy10
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The best ram for an MQ2 cocker??? What say you?

Sooo I just bought a karnivor that I'm SUPER excited about. It comes with an E2 board and is mostly stock. It has the MP4 ram with the built in QEV's and I'm thinking about upgrading to an MQ2 pretty soon here.

So my question is this...is the MP4 a sufficient ram for an MQ2 setup? Are there any common problems with that ram? Also, if the MP4 is weak, what would be the best ram to use for an MQ'd cocker? (surely a debated topic)














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Old 12-11-2010, 10:15 PM #2
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MP4 is just enough for what you want to do. I think one of the other rams with built in relief valves will get you better efficiency, but why bother if the MP4 works well enough?

I think the "problem" is people believe the MP4 to be unrebuildable. I'm not 100% on that, though. I've got one on my '06 MQ2'd Team Ultimate Black Magic.
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Old 12-11-2010, 10:35 PM #3
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What ram with built in relief valves might you be referring too?

I hear ya on the "unrebuildable" part.
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Old 12-11-2010, 10:39 PM #4
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I have a Karnivor and I made it a super Karnivor. It's got everything possible for an MQ cocker with the exception of milling and a Yakuza. If possible, get a Nexus Ram with QEVs with an AKA LPR.
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Old 12-11-2010, 11:53 PM #5
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mp4 is a great ram and only one i know of that has built in qev. some you can take apart and some you can not but they are not really serviceable.
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Old 12-12-2010, 12:07 AM #6
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So basically what I'm hearing is that the MP4 is sufficient? Good, good cuz I'd rather spend the money on a Yakuza tbh.
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Old 12-12-2010, 12:48 AM #7
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What's this that I hear about the ANS quick ram? Supposedly it keeps up better with the MQ2?
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Old 12-12-2010, 10:23 AM #8
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The ans ram is technically quicker but only by like 1ms i.e. Negligible.
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Old 12-12-2010, 11:10 AM #9
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i believe it has to do with the size of the rams shaft(thickness)

i dont recall if its thicker or thinner than the average ram, but due to this, it usually operates better on a higher LPR setting. This has something to do with working better with the MQ setup.

I believe the ANS could be set with a higher LPR setting and not get the downfall of "overpressurizing" the ram and causing issues.

something like that

edit: TDK is right

http://www.kajohnson.com/page/mqv
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Old 12-12-2010, 03:55 PM #10
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No, the benefit was that the ans ram with it's smaller bore size would be a negligible bit faster but an almost significant bit more frugal on air consumption (but not a ton). However almost any ram is good. Personally I run an mpp ram. They used to be the best bang for your buck because they were super cheap. Too bad no more moody paintball
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Old 12-13-2010, 03:47 AM #11
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I used PE/Belsales till I got my MQ2 valves, they are now retired to mechanical cockers.

I use ANS rams with Belsales/PE QEV's exclusively on my MQ guns. The ANS did allow 3 more BPS max but is louder than the others I used by a small amount.

"According to our tests, the best performing type of ram is a 5/16" bore run at 80 psi. A close second (by about .5ms) is the standard 3/8" bore at 60 psi. Speed did not increase with pressures higher than 80/60 psi."

From KA himself

.5ms per cycle at 22 cycles per second =.11ms per second which means 18bps with 3/8 and 22 with 5/16" mathematically

in the real world I saw 3bps instead of 4bps, maybe a diminishing return since I'm not taking energy into account, air flow ect. just some fast math.

numbers don't lie and have no opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thatdoolinkid View Post
The ans ram is technically quicker but only by like 1ms i.e. Negligible.
could be negligible to one and that last hurdle to some one else.

if you don't mind an LED instead of an lcd screen, the T-Board is a ton cheaper but order the "10X CTO CODE" and pm me for what's different in set up, I asked Damon to modify the code to better suit the MQ valve.

Last edited by commrad : 12-13-2010 at 03:59 AM.
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Old 12-13-2010, 09:34 AM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commrad View Post
I used PE/Belsales till I got my MQ2 valves, they are now retired to mechanical cockers.

I use ANS rams with Belsales/PE QEV's exclusively on my MQ guns. The ANS did allow 3 more BPS max but is louder than the others I used by a small amount.

"According to our tests, the best performing type of ram is a 5/16" bore run at 80 psi. A close second (by about .5ms) is the standard 3/8" bore at 60 psi. Speed did not increase with pressures higher than 80/60 psi."

From KA himself

.5ms per cycle at 22 cycles per second =.11ms per second which means 18bps with 3/8 and 22 with 5/16" mathematically

in the real world I saw 3bps instead of 4bps, maybe a diminishing return since I'm not taking energy into account, air flow ect. just some fast math.

numbers don't lie and have no opinion.

could be negligible to one and that last hurdle to some one else.

if you don't mind an LED instead of an lcd screen, the T-Board is a ton cheaper but order the "10X CTO CODE" and pm me for what's different in set up, I asked Damon to modify the code to better suit the MQ valve.
Hmm thanks for the "facts!" but I think I'm gonna stick with the MP4 unless I decide to go all out with the Karni. Hmm i've heard good things about the T-board. I'm definately going to convert the Karni to use it with a Dye UL frame, so a T-board (which is smaller than a Yakuza, correct?) would fit in the frame without milling, right? So that would be helpful to not go through all that hassle. Although I would really like an LCD....hmm
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Old 12-13-2010, 10:38 AM #13
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I'd just stick with the ram you've got.

From my point of view, the reason to go with an MQ valve in the first place is not so you can shoot faster, but rather, so you can shoot smoother at the speeds you'll actually be shooting in a game situation.

When I first put an Eblade on my Trilogy Sport many years ago, it easily fired at the 15bps PSP mode on the board, with a stock Trilogy ram without Qev's. That said, I've never seen a reason to even shoot that fast on the field.

In my humble opinion, if all you're after is raw, rediculous speed, you've chosen the wrong gun platform. There are other designs that can achieve those kinds of speeds without near the fuss that a Cocker requires. Now, if you want a gun that shoots exceptionally smooth anywhere from 12-15bps, you're in the right place.
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:32 PM #14
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Originally Posted by loneassassin View Post
I'd just stick with the ram you've got.

From my point of view, the reason to go with an MQ valve in the first place is not so you can shoot faster, but rather, so you can shoot smoother at the speeds you'll actually be shooting in a game situation.

When I first put an Eblade on my Trilogy Sport many years ago, it easily fired at the 15bps PSP mode on the board, with a stock Trilogy ram without Qev's. That said, I've never seen a reason to even shoot that fast on the field.

In my humble opinion, if all you're after is raw, rediculous speed, you've chosen the wrong gun platform. There are other designs that can achieve those kinds of speeds without near the fuss that a Cocker requires. Now, if you want a gun that shoots exceptionally smooth anywhere from 12-15bps, you're in the right place.
I hear ya man. I feel the same way. I got my first autococker mainly because of the incredible accurracy they provide. So having a light and fast one in a Karni is just what I'm after. So yeah I'll probably stick with the MP4, hit up an MQ2, and mow. Now to decide what board...
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Old 12-13-2010, 05:00 PM #15
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i had a karnivor and used it extensively for 2 years, never had any issues out of the stock mp4 ram or anything else on the gun for that matter. i like the mp4, it works, its reliable, and it looks nice and clean with the built in qev's.
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Old 12-13-2010, 09:27 PM #16
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I always liked the Palmer quick ram . I had the other wgp ram that had the externals qevs and that worked fine on my2 karni
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:04 AM #17
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If your never going to shoot much faster than field speed honestly just about any ram out there will work. Run your lpr pressure just a little higher than what is required to hit the max you'll use and you'll have one heck of a smooth ride especially if you do away with the stainless arm and ridiculously heavy bolt ball detent (stock bolts). I managed to get my stock 05 SS bolt down to 29.28 grams, still have to get a delrin ball for it. The MQ is a huge improvement, the light bolt isn't as great of an increase in smoothness but it was noticeable. Of course any significant reciprocating mass drop is going to make it smoother.
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:15 AM #18
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Originally Posted by commrad View Post
If your never going to shoot much faster than field speed honestly just about any ram out there will work. Run your lpr pressure just a little higher than what is required to hit the max you'll use and you'll have one heck of a smooth ride especially if you do away with the stainless arm and ridiculously heavy bolt ball detent (stock bolts). I managed to get my stock 05 SS bolt down to 29.28 grams, still have to get a delrin ball for it. The MQ is a huge improvement, the light bolt isn't as great of an increase in smoothness but it was noticeable. Of course any significant reciprocating mass drop is going to make it smoother.
Isn't the stock pump arm on the karni made of aluminum? You're talking about the bolt ball detent for the bolt pin, correct? I work at a machine shop so I'll have no problem lightening up that stock Karni bolt . I really wanted to get an Evo length Slik bolt but...ya know...
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Old 11-22-2011, 02:36 AM #19
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Numbers don't lie, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by commrad View Post
I used PE/Belsales till I got my MQ2 valves, they are now retired to mechanical cockers.

I use ANS rams with Belsales/PE QEV's exclusively on my MQ guns. The ANS did allow 3 more BPS max but is louder than the others I used by a small amount.

"According to our tests, the best performing type of ram is a 5/16" bore run at 80 psi. A close second (by about .5ms) is the standard 3/8" bore at 60 psi. Speed did not increase with pressures higher than 80/60 psi."

From KA himself

.5ms per cycle at 22 cycles per second =.11ms per second which means 18bps with 3/8 and 22 with 5/16" mathematically

in the real world I saw 3bps instead of 4bps, maybe a diminishing return since I'm not taking energy into account, air flow ect. just some fast math.

numbers don't lie and have no opinion.

could be negligible to one and that last hurdle to some one else.

if you don't mind an LED instead of an lcd screen, the T-Board is a ton cheaper but order the "10X CTO CODE" and pm me for what's different in set up, I asked Damon to modify the code to better suit the MQ valve.
Sorry to revive an old thread, but I just recently acquired an MQ2 valve and was wondering about the same thing the OP was, and THIS post in particular really threw me for a loop and almost caused me to make unnecessary purchases until I saw where the inconsistencies in these numbers were. I feel like since this is the first relevant thread that appears when you Google "MQ2 ram," I have an obligation to correct faulty data.

1) Accept the premise that using a 5/16" bore ram at 80 psi will indeed take .5 ms (one half of a millisecond) off of one entire cycle when compared to a cycle by a 3/8" bore ram at 60 psi
2) We are given a ROF value in this hypothetical situation of 22.0 BPS being obtained using a 3/8" bore ram, meaning the original ram gave the marker a total cycle time of 45.45 ms (1000 ms / 22.0 balls = 45.45 ms/ball)
3) 45.45 ms - 0.5 ms = 44.95 ms (cycle time of a hypothetical 5/16" bore ram being run at 80 psi), using premise given in "1)"
4) 1000 ms / 44.95 ms/ball = 22.247 balls
4a) For that tricky unit conversion, remember: ms/(ms/ball) can be rearranged through --> [(ball/ms)ms] / [(ball/ms)ms/ball] = ball / 1
5) 22.247 balls / 1 second - 22.0 balls / 1 second = 0.247 bps, QED
(I never realized how pretentious writing QED at the end of a proof looks outside of a bona fide mathematics class >.<)

So yes, I will agree with the conclusion of "negligible," assuming that a less than 1/4 bps increase is not worth the cost of a new ram, but I will concede the fact that numbers have no opinion and don't lie: if you're looking for that last ditch upgrade to get over that very last hurdle, purchasing a 5/16" bore ram and running it at 80 psi will earn you that elusive one more whole ball per second if you get sick of the measly 45 balls per second your 3/8" bore ram is somehow getting you at 60 psi.

Oh and in other words, that 3 bps increase you saw is mathematical garbage, here assuming Kerry Johnson's numerical conclusion of a .5 ms cycle time decrease does indeed apply at 18 bps. You should have expected and achieved a true increase of 0.163 bps.

My conclusion: I'm not switching my Eclipse-QEV'd Evo ram for a mini-ram.

Last edited by shadowcatcher511 : 11-22-2011 at 03:56 AM.
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:15 AM #20
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ram choice

I fell in love with the SMC ram. It's an industrial part, but works here, too. Ncdj2b10-100r-b. Unconfirmed rumor, its where palmers gets theirs. Very slowly drill the end air port open closer to size of the threads. My f-5 can do 24 a sec on that ram
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:54 AM #21
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O. And that's w/o qevs!
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