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Old 01-02-2012, 08:43 AM #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the other one View Post
It'll create redundancy... which the government loves so much. Also, the problem (in the past) with many of the task forces is that jurisdictional control over much of that stuff is always subject to bitter infighting, and witholding information or assets between entities (the first bombing of the WTC buildings taught us that lesson... which we forgot by the millennium). Hopefully those problems have been fixed, but whatever. Redundancy. It's useful in some instances.... but I'm not confident this would be one of them. It has a mass potential to do more harm than good.
The only thing is, under your train of thought redundancy doesn't get us anywhere if there is already infighting amongst groups doing a similar task.

I feel like most of the dick measuring is at the political level and your officers and agents want to do whats right with the information they are given.
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Old 01-02-2012, 10:42 AM #65
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Yes, it isn't really the prerogative of military personnel to determine policy or a course of action beyond what is within their mandate. The system is set up specifically with elected civilian leadership at the head of affairs, so that if there were a breakdown in the system the blame should be placed on the subsection of civil society that takes the responsibility to elect our representative leadership.
Ergo, if the military is given orders to do something illegal or unconstitutional, civil society is ultimately to blame for it's own inability to prevent this situation.

To further expand on this, do military personnel really have the authority to interpret constitutional law and civil policy? Laws like posse comitatus would indicate this is not the intent of the oath of service. Our republican system is not set up so that every individual can interpret and act on doctrine however he/she sees fit, but rather as a carefully balanced collective bargaining arrangement. If the balance falls one way or another for a particular time, that is just how things are, and it is perfectly legal so long as its change is not effected by those with the ability to do so. You can sit back and whine all you want about what is constitutionally acceptable and what is not, but until civil society and the representative system sorts it out, your opinions as an individual don't really matter. This is why it is so important to be politically active and/or vote, because as an individual in our system your voice cannot be heard without convincing others and forming a plurality.

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Old 01-02-2012, 01:10 PM #66
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^^^ Nicely stated.
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:52 PM #67
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beserker - Nuremberg Trials, look them up. It doesn't matter if you were just following orders or not, it is your job as a member of the US Military to follow only lawful orders and prevent injustices from happening.

You may have a degree in political philosophy, but I am a Sea Lawyer and Constitutional Scholar. Wut wut.

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Old 01-02-2012, 04:50 PM #68
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Originally Posted by berserker19 View Post
Yes, it isn't really the prerogative of military personnel to determine policy or a course of action beyond what is within their mandate. The system is set up specifically with elected civilian leadership at the head of affairs, so that if there were a breakdown in the system the blame should be placed on the subsection of civil society that takes the responsibility to elect our representative leadership.
Ergo, if the military is given orders to do something illegal or unconstitutional, civil society is ultimately to blame for it's own inability to prevent this situation.

To further expand on this, do military personnel really have the authority to interpret constitutional law and civil policy? Laws like posse comitatus would indicate this is not the intent of the oath of service. Our republican system is not set up so that every individual can interpret and act on doctrine however he/she sees fit, but rather as a carefully balanced collective bargaining arrangement. If the balance falls one way or another for a particular time, that is just how things are, and it is perfectly legal so long as its change is not effected by those with the ability to do so. You can sit back and whine all you want about what is constitutionally acceptable and what is not, but until civil society and the representative system sorts it out, your opinions as an individual don't really matter. This is why it is so important to be politically active and/or vote, because as an individual in our system your voice cannot be heard without convincing others and forming a plurality.
****ing dot. **** just watch "V for Vendetta". If you're looking for someone to blame, look in the mirror.

Not my fault noone pays attention to congressional elections, then *****es about Acts of Congress.
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:52 PM #69
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Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
if you were just following orders or not, it is your job as a member of the US Military to follow only lawful orders and prevent injustices from happening.
I don't disagree with this. Civil society has the ultimate responsibility to keep governmental powers in check, and in our system the military does not fall outside of that sphere. We vote, we live here, therefore we are part of civil society as well. As some of you pointed out earlier, it is a foolish mistake to put military personnel and civilians on opposite sides of the fence in any hypothetical situation.
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Old 01-02-2012, 10:33 PM #70
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According to our thread starter, we are mindless drones that love our bankers and congressmen, and will be shot in the face by a 5% in some mythical doorway. I don't have any idea what the **** he's talking about... but I can only hope he's just a really good troll.... which would be awesome, because he'd be the first to troll our little group successfully.

.
You mean to tell me you arn't? Your brainwashed to crave, expect, and embrace death. Don't tell me your not, because that simply isn't true. Especially infantry and the like. If you were not mindless you guys would not follow unconstitutional orders. Yet you still do it. If you did your research before joining up you would know America is owned by the big banks and corporations. They just use the military to accomplish its tasks, and its been that way all through out history

The 5% im speaking of is the people. Think 1776. Thats 15+million people, and you guys think your really going to be able to keep it contained? 16 million+ guns were sold in 2011 alone. It cracks me up that you guys really think your going to be in charge if and when martial law breaks out, but then again our congress is already saying America is a battlefield. But thats what the bankers want. Dont tell me it isn't going to happen, because one we are literally doing exactly what germany did to the letter, and two you guys have already done it several times, and you did it with no hesitation.
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Originally Posted by berserker19 View Post
I don't disagree with this. Civil society has the ultimate responsibility to keep governmental powers in check, and in our system the military does not fall outside of that sphere. We vote, we live here, therefore we are part of civil society as well. As some of you pointed out earlier, it is a foolish mistake to put military personnel and civilians on opposite sides of the fence in any hypothetical situation.
I suppose you didn't see the government documents outlining military action and protocols for waging war on the American people did you? Clearly marking citizens as red enemy, and blue as friendly military. So go tell that to the government.

for you vets the government already has written official documented plans for how to go out and kill vets specifically during civil unrest.
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Last edited by xCerealKillerx : 01-02-2012 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 01-02-2012, 10:46 PM #71
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Originally Posted by xCerealKillerx View Post
You mean to tell me you arn't? Your brainwashed to crave, expect, and embrace death. Don't tell me your not, because that simply isn't true. Especially infantry and the like. If you were not mindless you guys would not follow unconstitutional orders. Yet you still do it. If you did your research before joining up you would know America is owned by the big banks and corporations. They just use the military to accomplish its tasks, and its been that way all through out history

The 5% im speaking of is the people. Think 1776. Thats 15+million people, and you guys think your really going to be able to keep it contained? 16 million+ guns were sold in 2011 alone. It cracks me up that you guys really think your going to be in charge if and when martial law breaks out, but then again our congress is already saying America is a battlefield. But thats what the bankers want. Dont tell me it isn't going to happen, because one we are literally doing exactly what germany did to the letter, and two you guys have already done it several times, and you did it with no hesitation.


I suppose you didn't see the government documents outlining military action and protocols for waging war on the American people did you? Clearly marking citizens as red enemy, and blue as friendly military. So go tell that to the government.

for you vets the government already has written official documented plans for how to go out and kill vets specifically during civil unrest.




God tier trolling. I hope.
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Old 01-02-2012, 11:11 PM #72
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Old 01-02-2012, 11:12 PM #73
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He's right. Berserker, Imma comin for you
Don't worry about it. I already took the liberty off deploying an NSA hit squad.
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Old 01-02-2012, 11:27 PM #74
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Originally Posted by CptMotivator View Post



God tier trolling. I hope.
read
http://www.prisonplanet.com/exclusiv...-collapse.html


this

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html

and this

http://www.infowars.com/detention-ca...-civil-unrest/

before you call him crazy check the sources.
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Old 01-02-2012, 11:30 PM #75
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Those are some credible sources right there.

edit: Wtf do Explorers have to do with anything?
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Old 01-02-2012, 11:48 PM #76
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There's a **** ton of "no ****" statements in those articles. Police departments are training to deal with civil disorder? OH NO! The US Military has people stationed here on our own soil? Where the **** else are UNITED STATES citizens expected to live? BRB moving to canada, since aparently its not ok for military members to live in our own country lol
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:13 AM #77
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Those are some credible sources right there.

edit: Wtf do Explorers have to do with anything?
since when was a federal website not credible?
idk, but they want to kill you
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There's a **** ton of "no ****" statements in those articles. Police departments are training to deal with civil disorder? OH NO! The US Military has people stationed here on our own soil? Where the **** else are UNITED STATES citizens expected to live? BRB moving to canada, since aparently its not ok for military members to live in our own country lol
went right over your head
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:24 AM #78
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must be all that brainwashing.
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:44 AM #79
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Originally Posted by xCerealKillerx View Post
Your brainwashed to crave, expect, and embrace death. Don't tell me your not, because that simply isn't true. Especially infantry and the like. If you were not mindless you guys would not follow unconstitutional orders. Yet you still do it. If you did your research before joining up you would know America is owned by the big banks and corporations. They just use the military to accomplish its tasks, and its been that way all through out history

The 5% im speaking of is the people. Think 1776. Thats 15+million people, and you guys think your really going to be able to keep it contained? 16 million+ guns were sold in 2011 alone. It cracks me up that you guys really think your going to be in charge if and when martial law breaks out, but then again our congress is already saying America is a battlefield. But thats what the bankers want. Dont tell me it isn't going to happen, because one we are literally doing exactly what germany did to the letter, and two you guys have already done it several times, and you did it with no hesitation.


I suppose you didn't see the government documents outlining military action and protocols for waging war on the American people did you? Clearly marking citizens as red enemy, and blue as friendly military. So go tell that to the government.

for you vets the government already has written official documented plans for how to go out and kill vets specifically during civil unrest.

I love you. Holy ****, I ****ing love you, man.
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:25 AM #80
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squad leader just called. he said something about the platoon hitting the local VA tonight. i'll let ya'll know how it goes.
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:07 AM #81
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What will you do when you receive orders to detain American citizens and or go house to house to confiscate guns? Will you uphold your oath to defend the constitution, or will you violate the constitution and the posse comitatus act and fallow orders?

Pleas keep in mind that you swore to uphold the constitution, and any order you receive that is not parallel or congruent with the constitution is a unlawful order. Therefore your noncompliance with said orders is you fulfilling your oath.

I would like to know what page many of our service members are on.
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:24 AM #82
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:41 AM #83
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xCerealkillerx,

That last post of yours kind of put me off a bit. This is where **** goes awry. I take that **** personally. I hope you take this personal as well.



Let's start with two years ago.
You're a guy that took their driving test in December of 2009. You failed miserably, due to your nervousness and apparent lack of ability to perform under stress. Link.
This would mean that you were between the ages of 16-18 years of age... but let's assume you were 17. That makes you 19 years old now.

and closer....
Here's your first job... or at least your first interview for one. May 2010... 19 months ago. I got my first job at the age of 16, but you seem like you're a little slow with some things. You've been in the workforce less than two years. I'd call you a kid.

and closer....
In THIS post, we see that you pass your EMT class, and I assume you soon after get your current job as an EMT. That was just over a year ago. When we started calling you a kid, your response was something to the effect of "how many EMT's do you know that are kids?" Well, I know one now. You. You're not a minor, but you sure as hell aren't an adult yet.





And so that brings us closer and closer to where we are now... but I wanted to look back once more, to a thread you created in this very subforum a long time ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xCerealKillerx View Post
any of you guys here? iv always wanted to join the Military at least for one tour, but i also want to be a firefighter. While i was always planning to be an Infantry officer my whole life since i was little iv made some career changes. I want to be a officer Firefighter in the AF, then go out into the civi world and get a job with a department.

anyone ever do something similar to this? how did it work out. Did you face any obstacles that you didn't count on in the process?
What happened between November 2009 and now? Why the sudden change of heart? You used to want to be like some of the people you now claim are similar to drones. In a timeframe that short.... is it possible that you were suddenly brainwashed?



The only thing I can think of would be this thread of yours.

Quote:
I have a spent .308 shell from my grandfathers military funeral. I want get made into a necklace. anyone know of any shops that do that sort of stuff?
I'm sorry that in July of this past summer, you had to endure the pain of a Grandfather dying. He must have been a pretty important and honorable man, to warrant a 21-gun salute. He also must have been very special to you, since you wanted to make a necklace out of one of the casings.

The difference between you and your grandfather is that he gave up many years of his life trying to make this world, this country, your family.... better. He undoubtedly understood that the government is corrupt and all that... but he still served his time by being a service member. As corrupt as he knew it was, he made it that much better for all of us.... or at the very least, made a valiant attempt.

Your grandfather and I have something in common. Something that you will never share with him. Service. Military life is a bit different than the rest of the world.... and everyone who's been through a deployment can attest to that. Gramps could. We can. We're in the same boat on this one.

So... The man who loved your family, and who you loved... he's gone now, and you're calling him and us "mindless". You're saying that he didn't serve his country, he just served big banks... and that he knew he was doing it, because he was a mindless robot.

Go tell your parents that. Go tell your grandmother that, if she's still living. I'm sure she'd love to hear you talk about her husband like that.



I have a message for you, guy..... you have much to learn about us. we're people too.... every screen name on here is a living, breathing, human being. We have families, some of us have children, and all of us have had grandparents whom we try to make proud. Please understand why we don't like you... you're stabbing your grandfather in the back with some of these comments, and we don't understand why.

I bet you're the kind of guy who would spit on his own grandfather's grave. What a disappointment you must be.
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:47 AM #84
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You should write a book sometime. I'd read it.

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