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Old 11-23-2011, 01:53 PM #1
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Z2 hard on paint?

Has anyone else noticed that the Z2 is hard on paint?

A teammate and I have been experiencing barrel break issues over the past few weekends since I started using the Z2. On average this is happening 2-3x per pod. I'm suspecting this is due to the Z2 feeding paint more roughly, and the paint breaking when it hits the bottom of the breech, then blowing up when fired.

All times this has been alleviated by going back to using a Vlocity or a Prophecy (1st gen) set to low speed settings. This was observed on a DM9, G6R, and a Vice. All of the guns work well, and have proper detents, and worked perfectly after switching hoppers.

Anyone have any ideas? I heard Simon say that this hopper was extremely easy on paint, and I trust that guy for sure. It just really doesn't seem that way.
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Old 11-23-2011, 02:45 PM #2
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Slide your finger on the sensor window, when you come back towards the inside of the hopper do you feel a sharp edge? Some of the windows where put in backwards at the factory.
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Old 11-23-2011, 07:10 PM #3
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Thanks for the suggestion! I checked it out, and its perfectly smooth
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Old 11-23-2011, 11:35 PM #4
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After a year of pros testing we didn't have increased ball breakage due to the loader. Double check the sensor window visually . Post a picture up on here and let us verify that it is infact ok.
The Z2 self calibrates it's own speed and only feeds as fast as it needs to meaning it is very gentle on paint
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Old 11-24-2011, 04:03 AM #5
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Shockwave,

I am having the same issue. The balls were breaking inside the hopper, but I was playing in cold weather, i.e. 1 Celsius to 0 celcius. I thought it was my AXE, but it was breaking in the hopper and it took me a while to open and cleaned it. (paint was like two weeks old, but still in the bag)

So the second outing, I put my stock dwell on my axe. It was night play, and the weather was like 1 - 2 celsius. The ball still breaks inside the hopper, not in the breach. I was like, what the hell is wrong with the z2. I was thinking maybe the cold weather. (paint was like one week old, put in my pod and stored it in my closet)

The third outing, used my Fusion FX, stock setting, new battery, new duracell battery for z2, fresh paint from the box. It was ok for several games and the ball breaks again in the hopper maybe two or three balls and still, it was like a blender and I had to clean it again.

I honestly believed that z2 is gentle to the paint, but not in my case. So I checked the translucent window, it perfectly sits well. I don't know what else, will try to test it from time to time during this cold weather.

My first and second outing, maybe it was the crappy paint, brittle paint as it was and old paint. But still, should the z2 handle brittle paint? No dimples no weird size as I was checking the balls (not one by one, but generally).

I will test it from time to time.

cheers.
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Old 11-24-2011, 08:52 AM #6
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The Z2 should be very gentle on paint. The first thing to do if you are unhappy with the Z2's performance is put new AA's into it and run a diagnostics check.

You run that by holding in both buttons and turning it on. Then release both buttons. Once it gets to the purple LED, push any button and let it spin for a few seconds. It will have auto calibrated itself and made sure everything is correct.

It's not unusual at this time of year to hear of people finding that a gun or loader that was working perfectly or that shouldn't break paint suddenly starts doing so. More often than not it's the paint and not the gun or loader.

As the weather gets colder and people are still using summer formula paintballs they are more likely to get breaks in the barrels of the guns or in the loaders.

This has actually gotten even worse over the last few years as the paint manufacturers strive to save costs on making the paint, and the paint is often less consistent and more fragile anyway (especially when using a summer paint in colder conditions).

The first thing to do please is a paint drop test. Usually I like to drop at least 10 and preferably 20 balls at each height. If the first 5 balls all break, I lower down a foot to the next height. Typically I start at around 3 feet. That's the height that quality fragile paint will break around 50/50. Higher and the majority breaks, lower and the majority bounces.

The problem with the cheaper and more inconsistent paint we see nowadays is that 19 balls will bounce at 5 feet and one will break at 12-24 inches. That one will break in your hopper on a dive (or even a reload) and will always blow up in the barrel of most guns.

If you do the paint test and that's all good, then there a few other things to look out for. What batteries are you using? If you are not using 4 AA's please go back to using it with just 4 AA's.

Double check the window in the slide as Ross mentioned earlier. We did see some early units with it forced in backwards. The window should be completely smooth with the slide. There shouldn't be any bump or gap.

Next, where is the paint breaking in the loader? If you have paint all around the inside of the loader that is typically due to

a) Loading a ball that was broken in the pod (shot in the pod, or over/under loading pods so balls break when running).

b) A ball breaking when being poured into the loader (bad paint).

c) A ball breaking on a dive (paint too fragile or a bad ball).

d) Getting shot through the speed feed (this sucks and will need some cleaning. )

Typically if there is a lot of paint all around the balls inside the loader and shell then it wasn't caused by the drive system of the loader. Any balls in the drive that are broken are almost always forced down and out into the gun. They don't leave a huge mess in the loader body.

If the paint is breaking but you just see a little paint on the tip of the fins.

1) Loader is spinning too fast, or possibly too hard. Run diagnostics which will slow it down if it was too fast. (If that doesn't work contact paintball solutions and they can take your loader test it, and make sure it is set up better for the fragile paint for you, or talk to the techs at an event.)

2) The loader ran empty and it's sitting at just the wrong height on your gun so that the last ball in the feedneck is getting smacked by the paddles as they rotate. This is an easy fix by just lifting the loader up 1/8 of an inch in the feedneck. This is most likely to solve the problem being noticed here. If you run empty and you hear the loader spinning and hitting a ball with the paddles a quick fix is to just grab the rip drive wheel and stop the paddles until you pot up. (It should automatically start up again when you pot up. )

If the paint is breaking in the breech of the gun.

1) It's the paint being too fragile or a bad ball.

2) It's the gun. (could be the type of gun or maintenance issues like ball detents etc.)

3) The hopper is driving too hard (this is unlikely with the Z2, but due to component tolerance issues it may be possible. Run a diagnostics and if that doesn't fix it a trip to paintball solutions would be the way for it to be verified and set up for you).

Last edited by Simon : 11-24-2011 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 11-24-2011, 09:01 AM #7
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Does the Z2 put any kind of pressure on the balls ?

One thing I liked about the V1/2 is the clutch putting pressure on the balls to avoid bouce in the breech which can lead to ball breaks.
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Old 11-24-2011, 09:15 AM #8
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Mr. Simon,

thanks for your long reply. I am reading it and will try to look into this matter. I do not believe that this Z2 is that bad, as I do own prophecy V2 and it works wonder. Maybe during cold weather, all ****ty things happen.

Thanks again!
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Old 11-24-2011, 09:22 AM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iboomalot View Post
Does the Z2 put any kind of pressure on the balls ?

One thing I liked about the V1/2 is the clutch putting pressure on the balls to avoid bouce in the breech which can lead to ball breaks.
The Z2 only really starts to put pressure on the balls once it hears the gun fire, and then it starts pushing on the next ball even before the bolt is back and the ball can load.

However with the way the drive system works there won't be any balls bouncing in the breech. The encoded drive system pushes the balls down into the breech until it can't push anymore. Then it is stopped by the drive sensing system. At this point the feed tube is full of balls and they can't back up. This means the ball in the breech is held in place by the balls above it, etc. until they get to the drive carrier which is unable to move backwards and allow any bounce.

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Originally Posted by livingstone82 View Post
Mr. Simon,

thanks for your long reply. I am reading it and will try to look into this matter. I do not believe that this Z2 is that bad, as I do own prophecy V2 and it works wonder. Maybe during cold weather, all ****ty things happen.

Thanks again!
Cold weather can definitely cause funky issues. If it's very cold you even start seeing issues with the lubrication and o-rings. (Oh I have stories about that ).

The biggest factor that the cold affects is the paint though. Unfortunately it only needs to make one ball in 500 to be too brittle to feed or shoot, and it can really make you feel like you are having a bad day.
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Old 11-24-2011, 10:32 AM #10
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Is a RF receiver avail for the Z2 ? I have an AXE with a supressor and lurker bolt thats super quiet and the Z2 and V2s can't hear it fire. I installed a Magna RF chip and currently using my LTD on it. Like to try the Z2 on it but needs the RF chip. I tried playing but kept having to shake the hopper for the drive to spin.

Can the sensitivity be adjusted on the Z2 ??
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Old 11-24-2011, 11:03 AM #11
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Quote:
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I have an AXE with a supressor and lurker bolt thats super quiet and the Z2 and V2s can't hear it fire.
Nice! Sounds like fun. I have a barrel I made for my Axe too that is super quiet. I like being sneaky in the woods and no-one being able to tell I am shooting at them until they are hit.

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Is a RF receiver avail for the Z2 ?
It will be shortly. The Z2 will actually work with the transmitter you already have, but it requires a different wiring harness to fit the hopper board. Kits should be out soon.

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Can the sensitivity be adjusted on the Z2 ??
It's not user adjustable at this point in time.
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Old 11-24-2011, 11:25 AM #12
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k thanks

PM me what you did to silence your marker I used a Carter rain cover stuffed with pink fiberglass
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Old 11-24-2011, 08:02 PM #13
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Simon - Firstly, thank you so much for taking the time to respond with an lengthy post. I have the utmost respect for you and remember you from years back before you were working for the paintball industry (some sort of machine programming in England IIRC).

I completely understand that colder weather - combined with stores/fields dumping their summer shelled balls - can make for a horrible combination. I chalked up the breaking paint to this for a few weeks, but this doesn't explain why I'm not breaking paint when I swap back to the vlocity and prophecy v1's. I don't notice broken paint within the loader itself, just within the gun/barrel.

I will first do the calibration routine you mentioned, and then I will try and adjust the loader up a bit just in case I'm experiencing the stack height issue you described.

Thanks again.
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Old 11-25-2011, 01:30 AM #14
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The thing I like about the part about barrels is the fact that Simon can make his own barrels any way he wants... I would totally love to be simon...
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Old 11-25-2011, 09:54 PM #15
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Quote:
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I chalked up the breaking paint to this for a few weeks, but this doesn't explain why I'm not breaking paint when I swap back to the vlocity and prophecy v1's. I don't notice broken paint within the loader itself, just within the gun/barrel.

I will first do the calibration routine you mentioned, and then I will try and adjust the loader up a bit just in case I'm experiencing the stack height issue you described.
I have the exact same issue. No problems out of the V1 and V2 Prophecies but a lot of breaks with the V2.

Thanks for the long response, Simon. I'll be sure to check out the diagnostics and the window.
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Old 11-25-2011, 10:07 PM #16
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Ok so I calibrated mine and now it is so soft on paint I break no balls in a pump with it and I break **** tons with a gravity loader so that's a huge plus.
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Old 11-28-2011, 06:58 PM #17
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Hi Simon.

I got a chance on Friday to do some good testing with 2 Z2's that we're having problems with.

- Both hoppers were recalibrated using fresh duracell batteries according to your instructions.
- Both hoppers sensor windows were carefully inspected (pictures to follow) and did not exhibit any uneven or sharp edges.
- Double checked loader height in feedneck match by loading balls 1 at a time until just 1 ball was "peeking" into the hopper. Adjusted the hopper height until the paddle could move freely without contacting the "peeking" ball at all.
- Temperature was 70 degrees with average humidity.
- Shot a pod full of "hard" paint. (20 balls test dropped from 5 feet high - 0 breaks). No paintballs were broken when shooting.
- Shot a pod of "medium" paint (20 balls test dropped from 5 feet high - 6 breaks/14 bounces). DM9 broke a ball after ~ 20 shots. Detents were wet after that point, and major double feeding was encountered after that. G6R broke ~ 8 balls out of the pod. Was very sad
- Switched to a Prophecy v1, set to a speed setting of 2. After this, we were able to shoot the "medium" paint without issue and encountered no breaks.

We're really pulling our hair out regarding this. I absolutely love the Z2's form factor, not to mention its cool looking matte finish, but am deathly afraid to use it in any tournament situation. Please help!
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:10 PM #18
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Speed setting 2 on a V1 is very low. Often that isn't enough to feed reliably. It was working ok for you to shoot strings? It is definitely softer at that setting than the Z2 would be when normally calibrated.

However it still sounds like something isn't right with the Z2 or it is driving harder/longer than it should.

At this point we probably need to take a look at it to work out what it is.

You can ship it to me and I can check it out, or I could try sending you a different board and you can try that if you feel confident in how to install it?
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:13 PM #19
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Quote:
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Speed setting 2 on a V1 is very low. Often that isn't enough to feed reliably. It was working ok for you to shoot strings? It is definitely softer at that setting than the Z2 would be when normally calibrated.

However it still sounds like something isn't right with the Z2 or it is driving harder/longer than it should.

At this point we probably need to take a look at it to work out what it is.

You can ship it to me and I can check it out, or I could try sending you a different board and you can try that if you feel confident in how to install it?
Simon - thanks so much for the quick response. I've actually used setting #2 on my V1 forever. I find that I never have any issues with feeding, and it will reliably feed ~ 15-16 bps, which gives me a good overhead of ~ 3bps for 12.5 ramping. No reason to have it feeding super fast if I'm capped right?

I am extremely comfortable installing a different board. Let me know how to get you my info and I'll do so right away. Also, let me know if you need any info from my hopper itself - serial #'s, board #'s etc, and I'll be happy to get that to you.

Thanks again.
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:16 PM #20
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Setting 1 on the original prophecy feeds 12.5 with no hiccups. I don't know how much faster it can go but all mine are set to 1 with no issues
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Old 12-14-2011, 11:46 AM #21
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Quote:
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However with the way the drive system works there won't be any balls bouncing in the breech. The encoded drive system pushes the balls down into the breech until it can't push anymore. Then it is stopped by the drive sensing system. At this point the feed tube is full of balls and they can't back up. This means the ball in the breech is held in place by the balls above it, etc. until they get to the drive carrier which is unable to move backwards and allow any bounce.
Doesn't this force on the stack of balls potentially cause the following problem: The next ball in the stack, above the one in the breech to be fired, can be hit by the bolt as it moves forward, causing the shell to fracture. This problem occurs because the feedstack has no "give" and the on-deck paintball can't be pushed up the feedtube even small amount.

If the on-deck paintball sticks into the breech even a small amount and has no give, it can fracture when struck by the paintgun's bolt.

Then, when the fractured paintball is fired, it explodes in the barrel.
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