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Old 11-16-2011, 01:22 AM #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ***MINIONS*** View Post
Really chris? Really? all this time is spent running in flags in 7 man? ok well how bout this? you hang a flag 8 times in prelims in 7 man. granted you run it 180 ft, you will hang a flag what 5 times in per match for 4 matches at 75 feet. that's 1500 feet of flag running in psp and 1440 feet of running in nppl. hey chris you dropped some food there.
Uh, no. For a few reasons.

1) Many times in PSP the flag isn't run at all. A team surrenders and ends play immediately.
2) The vast majority of the rest of the time, players have an incentive to hang the flag as quickly as possible.
3) With coaching, a team usually immediately knows when the last opposing player has been eliminated.
4) Your math is bad. If you're going to count the 75' from PSP centerfield to the endline, you need to count it for NPPL too, for a total of 270'.

At the end of 7-man games, there is usually some period of time while the team makes sure the other team is indeed all dead, then the back players (the ones most likely to be completely clean) get to the opposing team's station, then run the flag back to their start station.


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and most matches go to overtime? really? bull****. that's all i have to say. bull****. prove to me that most matches go into overtime. i ran a field in psp new jersey and i think 2 games went into overtime the entire day each day.
I didn't say most went to overtime. I said most went to time OR overtime.

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and if you think you play more games in psp pro you should ask the nppl pro players in top 4 how many games they play on sunday.
I was comparing prelims to prelims, where everyone plays the full 4 matches or 8 games.

If you want to talk Sunday, NPPL Pros play 6-9 games in Quarters, 2-3 in Semis, and 2-3 in Finals. PSP Pros play about 10 points in Quarters, 10 points in Semis, and 10 points in Finals.

I don't know why you'd talk about Pros though. In PSP D3, a team will usually play through 4 rounds to get to Finals, for a total of about 20 points. In NPPL D3, you'd play 2-3 games in Quarters, 2-3 in Semis, and 2-3 in Finals, for a total of 6 to 9.


But, unlike you, I think more playoff play is actually a PROBLEM, not a good thing - the more you have to play in playoffs, the more paint you have to shoot, and the more expensive winning gets. Everybody wants to get a good value for their buck (i.e. enough play in prelims that their trip is worthwhile), but past that, I don't think anyone is itching to burn more paint in playoffs than they need to be.


I know my team always shoots for the bye out of prelims so we can save the match of paint.


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Last edited by raehl : 11-16-2011 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 11-16-2011, 01:29 AM #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raehl View Post



I think more playoff play is actually a PROBLEM, not a good thing - the more you have to play in playoffs, the more paint you have to shoot, and the more expensive winning gets. Everybody wants to get a good value for their buck (i.e. enough play in prelims that their trip is worthwhile), but past that, I don't think anyone is itching to burn more paint in prelims than they need to be.

wow. mark this down in history the day we can actually agree on something.
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Old 11-16-2011, 01:34 AM #66
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ok chris we'll go with your numbers. 2009 was 322 teams. 2011 394 teams. that's almost a 20% increase. yeah nppl i guess isnt doing so hot.
I don't think I said they were not doing hot. I said you were being inexplicably selective in your data. NPPL went up 72 teams in 2 years, 67 of that this year. PSP went up 68 teams this year. I'd say the takeaway is that national-level tournament paintball had a good year.


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Old 11-16-2011, 02:42 PM #67
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Chris broke out a lot of math, but one thing I'd like to point out is that a game of 7-man =/= a game of 5-man.

I played 5-man at Cup last year an our average game time in prelims was something retarded like 1min 30sec (including running the flag in). It was fun to trounce teams in prelims but ultimately that's not a lot of game time. Race to 4+ formats offer the advantage of playing more points but many teams run 2 lines so that doesn't necessarily mean a ton of game time either.

I don't know if I prefer the 7-man format, but one thing I do prefer is that the games take a few minutes to unfold. It's easy to recover from dropping a body or two off of break. As much as I love the frenzied feeling of playing race to formats, many of those points are decided in the first 15 seconds removing some of the fun chess match elements. On the other hand, race to formats leave less to chance as you get more shots at taking a team down and get to build momentum.

It's obvious that Chris is a proponent of one particular league/format, but it's important to objectively look at the positive and negative points of each.

The fact that each time you step on the field you are likely to play a longer game is a positive aspect of 7-man. The fact that the teams have the ability to recover from an iffy break out is another positive aspect of 7-man.

Additionally, I think it's counter productive for you to be entering into the NPPL forum and participating in conversations this way. I think that a league merger would be the best thing for paintball right now. Perhaps you're privy to information we don't have, but I can't imagine your behavior here improving the prospects of a league merger.
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Old 11-16-2011, 03:41 PM #68
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lol, a pbnation thread jeopardizing the merger...
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Old 11-16-2011, 04:03 PM #69
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lol, a pbnation thread jeopardizing the merger...
You are a nobody. No one involved in the merger cares what you have to say. Chris Raehl is a somebody, and people involved in the merger probably do care what he has to say. This is paintball's most popular forum and you can bet what Chris is saying is pissing off some of the folks who pour their hearts, time and money into running the NPPL.

The NPPL has their reasons for choosing semi and no coaching over ramping and coaching. I don't agree with those reasons, but to disrespectfully dismiss those reasons is unprofessional.
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Old 11-16-2011, 04:09 PM #70
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Originally Posted by poopresearch View Post
Chris broke out a lot of math, but one thing I'd like to point out is that a game of 7-man =/= a game of 5-man.

I played 5-man at Cup last year an our average game time in prelims was something retarded like 1min 30sec (including running the flag in). It was fun to trounce teams in prelims but ultimately that's not a lot of game time. Race to 4+ formats offer the advantage of playing more points but many teams run 2 lines so that doesn't necessarily mean a ton of game time either.

I don't know if I prefer the 7-man format, but one thing I do prefer is that the games take a few minutes to unfold. It's easy to recover from dropping a body or two off of break. As much as I love the frenzied feeling of playing race to formats, many of those points are decided in the first 15 seconds removing some of the fun chess match elements. On the other hand, race to formats leave less to chance as you get more shots at taking a team down and get to build momentum.

It's obvious that Chris is a proponent of one particular league/format, but it's important to objectively look at the positive and negative points of each.

The fact that each time you step on the field you are likely to play a longer game is a positive aspect of 7-man. The fact that the teams have the ability to recover from an iffy break out is another positive aspect of 7-man.

Additionally, I think it's counter productive for you to be entering into the NPPL forum and participating in conversations this way. I think that a league merger would be the best thing for paintball right now. Perhaps you're privy to information we don't have, but I can't imagine your behavior here improving the prospects of a league merger.
I like playing paintball. I like RaceTo, but I've been known to play 7-man, 10-man, in the woods, whatever. Trying to say RaceTo is "better" than 7-man isn't much different than saying RaceTo is "better" than woodsball. They're different, and different people are going to like one more than the other.

But there's a difference between a matter of opinion and actual facts. For example, you can like, or not like, coaching. But if you think "Semi-auto is a skill" (where electronic guns are allowed) you are incorrect. You can certainly like semi-auto, but you can't have a semi-auto tournament that allows electronic guns.

Anyway, you'll notice that I post on internet paintball forums a lot. You'll notice a lot of those posts are correcting or offering additional information to other people's posts, especially where I happen to know a lot more than most about a particular subject.

I don't visualize a special force-field surrounding certain forums. Posting some data on the average number of points a RaceTo team plays or how long those points are or actual team counts isn't "attacking" anything.

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Old 11-16-2011, 04:19 PM #71
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You are a nobody. No one involved in the merger cares what you have to say. Chris Raehl is a somebody, and people involved in the merger probably do care what he has to say.
I can absolutely, positively, assure you that no one making decisions with regards to the merger cares one iota what I have to say.

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Old 11-16-2011, 04:22 PM #72
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I would have to argue that semi is still a skill.

I completely understand what you mean about bounce but I would say that you can see and hear a big difference in consistency with people who are not practicing trigger skills and those who are. Especially when you watch people play with their non-dominant hand.

I don't play much semi but I still work my trigger skills every night at home (as well as snapping, form, blah blah blah) and I have a much more consistent string of paint that those who don't.

In Vegas I was checked for a bouncy marker. The ref fired 4-5 times. He slapped the tank from behind pretty firmly, tried to bounce it. The second a marker went 1 shot over chrono speed or bounced, he said "nope" and wouldn't look at it until it was fixed.

So there are some safeguards in there as much as they can try. Sure, boards and cheater modes and such can screw that up but from a naive point of view, it can happen.
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Old 11-16-2011, 04:34 PM #73
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The only way I can see someone arguing that pulling their trigger to fire a marker takes some sort of skill is on a mechanical or pump marker.

Other than that you are just clicking a mouse.

As Chris said, aiming your marker properly is the skill that a good paintball player possesses.

I don't know why this always gets brought up in these merger/NPPL is better than PSP vica versa arguments. It's the most silly thing. I have broached the subject to my non tournament friends and they ask me in response if the people that argue for trigger walking being a skill are under the influence of psychedelics.

Stop talking about it.
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Old 11-16-2011, 04:57 PM #74
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Originally Posted by poopresearch View Post
You are a nobody. No one involved in the merger cares what you have to say. Chris Raehl is a somebody, and people involved in the merger probably do care what he has to say. This is paintball's most popular forum and you can bet what Chris is saying is pissing off some of the folks who pour their hearts, time and money into running the NPPL.

The NPPL has their reasons for choosing semi and no coaching over ramping and coaching. I don't agree with those reasons, but to disrespectfully dismiss those reasons is unprofessional.
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Old 11-16-2011, 07:57 PM #75
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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaahah
At least you're being constructive.
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Old 11-16-2011, 11:08 PM #76
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Let me say this first, I want whatever is best for the sport of paintball. I have been playing national events for the last 11 years and I enjoy both formats for very different reasons.

In response to the above statements about ramping I wanted to say that ramping is a huge advantage when it come to shooting lanes on the break as well as maintaining a lane or gaining control of the tape.

If shooting 15bps on semi wasnt a skill then you wouldnt see so many of the people who play NPPL tea cupping. I agree you can cheat, but thats a risk just like whipping.
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Old 11-17-2011, 01:05 AM #77
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wow. mark this down in history the day we can actually agree on something.
Ha, I was thinking the same thing.
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Old 11-17-2011, 01:11 AM #78
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Originally Posted by Shawn_Savage View Post
I would have to argue that semi is still a skill.

I completely understand what you mean about bounce but I would say that you can see and hear a big difference in consistency with people who are not practicing trigger skills and those who are. Especially when you watch people play with their non-dominant hand.

I don't play much semi but I still work my trigger skills every night at home (as well as snapping, form, blah blah blah) and I have a much more consistent string of paint that those who don't.

In Vegas I was checked for a bouncy marker. The ref fired 4-5 times. He slapped the tank from behind pretty firmly, tried to bounce it. The second a marker went 1 shot over chrono speed or bounced, he said "nope" and wouldn't look at it until it was fixed.

So there are some safeguards in there as much as they can try. Sure, boards and cheater modes and such can screw that up but from a naive point of view, it can happen.
There is definately a skill to shooting fast with a semi, especially when running & gunning or shooting in off-hand. This is what seperates the boys from the men.

My gun was also checked for bounce at vegas, but then they realized it was a pump

I would agree that some refs can be rediculous in checking for bounce, they need a standard test to go by, perhaps in the future it'll be the virtue chip in gun for all divisions
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Old 11-17-2011, 01:24 AM #79
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shooting fast doesnt matter... like stated earlier, its your aim, it only takes 1 broken ball on a person to kill them but obviously everyone shoots more than that 1 hoping to multiply their odds or chance of hitting the opposing player.

and as far as dominant hand shooting goes, i see people shooting "wrong-handed" all the time: if its faster, gets the kill, doesnt get you killed, or just plain works for you then it doesnt matter what hand you shoot with...



but the debate between PSP vs. NPPL will never end... apples vs. oranges... and so many other comparisons can be used, its all about PREFERENCE! and different people prefer different things.

cant we agree to disagree?

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Old 11-17-2011, 02:20 AM #80
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Both leagues need to bring back the 'Red Zone'.

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Old 11-17-2011, 04:58 PM #81
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If there is a merger hopefully we will see cash prizes like the NPPL.
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Old 11-17-2011, 05:30 PM #82
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If there is a merger hopefully we will see cash prizes like the NPPL.
If the # of teams that sign up for psp played NPPL instead, the cash prizes would be huge. Someday they will see the light
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Old 11-24-2011, 02:03 PM #83
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If the # of teams that sign up for psp played NPPL instead, the cash prizes would be huge. Someday they will see the light
Funny thing is the "lack" of cash prizes doesn't seem to be hurting the team attendance numbers in PSP.

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I don't think I said they were not doing hot. I said you were being inexplicably selective in your data. NPPL went up 72 teams in 2 years, 67 of that this year. PSP went up 68 teams this year. I'd say the takeaway is that national-level tournament paintball had a good year.
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I wonder how much of the increase in teams is due to the 5 man divisions.

Either way seems to me that 5 man teams are what 'may' be driving team attendance.
As a Pump player I don't have a dog in either fight, PSP or NPPL, but as a spectator PSP wins hands down with the crowd participation, the risk/reward style of play. NPPL runs hot and cold, on Friday prelims teams play hard but come Saturday they start playing conservative with a majority of players playing safe and not risking anything because they are considering point totals. Then come Sunday Finals best of 3, essentially "Race to 2" and the games get exciting.
5 man PSP has the teams and excitement with the "Race to" format
7 man NPPL has some growth possibly from 5 man and cash money prizes
NPPL HB has the non-paintball community exposure

Seems to me that the Leagues may not be thriving but they are surviving, what's obviously missing is the non-paintball playing public's exposure to the game. And as far as that goes to me it's the PSP that will draw more fans as it's an easier game for the non-player to understand since it has more in common with baseball, soccer, football...

Diehard tourney players will always showup for the tourneys be they PSP or NPPL regardless of their preference just because they want to compete. It's that new player, consumer that paintball needs to grow.
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Old 11-24-2011, 02:32 PM #84
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As a Pump player I don't have a dog in either fight, PSP or NPPL, but as a spectator PSP wins hands down with the crowd participation, the risk/reward style of play.

NPPL HB has the non-paintball community exposure

Seems to me that the Leagues may not be thriving but they are surviving, what's obviously missing is the non-paintball playing public's exposure to the game. And as far as that goes to me it's the PSP that will draw more fans as it's an easier game for the non-player to understand since it has more in common with baseball, soccer, football...

Diehard tourney players will always showup for the tourneys be they PSP or NPPL regardless of their preference just because they want to compete. It's that new player, consumer that paintball needs to grow.
^^ Agree ^^

Thanks to ***NPPL*** this year we (pump players) had a National Venue to compete in @ EVERY event they held.

Only thing Ive got on "wondering about the future". You want it to be cheaper at the events, Dont cost them so much money. Every event we went to this year was TRASHED. Anywhere near the PITS or the Stands... Your mommy isnt there, someone is paid to pick it up.
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