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Old 11-14-2011, 11:07 PM #43
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Or they figured out that it was cheaper to run more fields than to rent the space for an extra day. I hated how the divisional teams played 4 games a day during prelims. You're at the field for like 8 hours to play 4 games!!
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Old 11-15-2011, 12:44 AM #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ***MINIONS*** View Post
dc had 70 teams not 40. psp did not have 10 fields all year they had that at world cup, and the psp format requires more field time per player. ive used this argument time and time again hb 140 teams 3 fields, nj 120 teams 6 fields.
psp requires more fields per players. there it is in black in white, now flame away.
there were 132 teams in vegas, the most at an event in 3 years for nppl. that was strait from the captains meeting
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Originally Posted by RepN the 417 View Post
Do you think the NPPL would stop hosting events and planning for them before a deal is 100% done?

Of course there is a date for HB, and there will be until its official.

Did you not notice that Dave Youngblood(sp?) said it's almost a done deal?
from what i heard it was like this "if the merger happens great for both sides, if not oh well" - nppl
they are already talking about events for next year and talking about rules. doesnt sound like it is going through from what i heard all weekend.


7 man is so slow, there were 2 stale mates in semi finals, WTF???

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Old 11-15-2011, 01:09 AM #45
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With all the format Changes psp has done in the past few years, the formats look like they are going to eventually be damn close anyways.

I feel like with a merger, someone, somewhere is going to lose. And people with a) money and b) power dont like to lose. Its not gonna be a win for everyone.

Theres so much behind the scenes stuff the majority of us have no idea about. Whatever happens, happens and thats all. I always felt like the industry as a whole has a habit of shooting itself in the foot. Hopefully the right choices can be made.
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Old 11-15-2011, 01:31 AM #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by contract*killa View Post
there were 132 teams in vegas, the most at an event in 3 years for nppl. that was strait from the captains meeting

from what i heard it was like this "if the merger happens great for both sides, if not oh well" - nppl
they are already talking about events for next year and talking about rules. doesnt sound like it is going through from what i heard all weekend.


7 man is so slow, there were 2 stale mates in semi finals, WTF???

...thats why there is an overtime in the psp?... lulz.
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Old 11-15-2011, 08:36 AM #47
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Minion is spot on. Everyone seems to think that because PSP has more fields its a bigger event. Not true. There's a lot of down time on fields.

Race to format or points, both leagues play 8 games.

Coaching and guns are the only real difference. In Vegas during one of the pro games a player waited and ambushed two guys running the wire by hiding on the inside of the snake car wash. It was great game play between two players in the snake against the other team. That would not have been possible in PSP because of coaching.

If you have a favorite format support that format but it's not necessary to bash the other format.

Will they merge? Maybe, maybe not. If they don't there's no harm. If they do then event size increases. Look at the team roster for both leagues. Except for the pro and D1 divisions most teams in the lower divisions do not play both events. Adding 100 teams to either league is a win.

What I find funny is that everyone assumes that a merge will be the end of 7-man & semi. What if a merge is the end of coaching and ramping?
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Old 11-15-2011, 11:43 AM #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kuykendall View Post
Minion is spot on. Everyone seems to think that because PSP has more fields its a bigger event. Not true. There's a lot of down time on fields.
Minion really doesn't know what he's talking about. It seems you're missing some information as well.

If there are more fields, one or more of the following must be true:

- There are more teams playing
- Teams are getting more play time
- The refs are not there 14-16 hours straight
- The league likes paying to build extra fields just for fun.

The downtime on fields is negligible.

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Race to format or points, both leagues play 8 games.
Still not true. PSP RaceTo-2 a MINIMUM of 8 games are played; the average is 10. RaceTo-4 averages 20 games per team, RaceTo-5 averages 24, and RaceTo-7 averages 36 games per team.

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What I find funny is that everyone assumes that a merge will be the end of 7-man & semi. What if a merge is the end of coaching and ramping?
Coaching in PSP is already pretty limited, and there is some spectator involvement in NPPL (the sidelines upping the volume when someone starts to make a bunker move is the same in both leagues), so they're really not that far apart. Personally, I think it's much ado about nothing; most people grossly overstate the effect of coaching on the game, especially with how restricted it currently is in PSP.

Semi-auto has been dead for over 10 years, so a merger won't have any effect on that, other than getting rid of the part where you have to fight with the chrono ref over whether you have too much "bounce" aka ramping in your gun while less-than-honest opponents just have their board add more ramp once they are past the chrono judge.

Short version, NPPL is already 15 bps 2-ball-per-pull ramping and PSP is 12.5 bps 3-ball-per-pull ramping, and merging those two is a very small issue.

Your numbers in the other thread are also appeared to have a mistake: 2011 NPPL Chicago attendance was 70 teams, and 2011 DC was 58, at least according to the NPPL rankings.

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Old 11-15-2011, 11:43 AM #49
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Originally Posted by ***MINIONS*** View Post
i cant argue with you on that. i swear only 10% of the people in this world research things before having and opinion and think before they speak. same goes for pbnation.
Unfortunately you're not in that 10%.

For example, NPPL attendance increased slightly from 2009 to 2010 by 5 teams for the entire season. For 2011, HB and Vegas attendance was up, but Chicago and DC attendance was up only 2 or 3 teams each.

So then the question becomes, how much of the increase in HB/Vegas attendance was because PSP just didn't run an event west of Texas this year, or because people thought Vegas might be the last national 7-man event ever? Apparently that netted at least one D1 team.

You also implied that PSP attendance is continually down when it isn't - it went from 612 teams last year to 680 this year.


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Old 11-15-2011, 11:51 AM #50
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Quote:
7 man is so slow, there were 2 stale mates in semi finals, WTF???
It doesn't have to be slow. This particular layout made it hard to move up when you were down on bodies and challenging break crosses and to close out games. That combination lead to lots of stalemates and long games.

If they hadn't made D2 a mini dorrito and adjust the fill bunkers for the snake a little bit games would have played entirely differently. Of course, width is a huge factor when it comes to breaking crosses on a 7-man field. If they widened it to 120' like a PSP field, the angles would be deep enough to make closing out games easier.

Quote:
What I find funny is that everyone assumes that a merge will be the end of 7-man & semi. What if a merge is the end of coaching and ramping?
These are two things that the PSP did right IMO. They took two things that are really really hard to police and made them part of the game. Even with the virtue chips (which monitor solenoid pulses not trigger pulls) it's incredibly hard to catch people with hidden ramping modes and bouncy triggers and trust me, there are lots of them out there. Electronic guns are here to stay and consequently so are easy to police ramping modes. Coaching I can take or leave but it does encourage crowd involvement.

Ultimately though, let's merge already.
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Old 11-15-2011, 02:57 PM #51
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I'm hoping the PSP get on board with KEE and their other sponsors, forget about the merger and just do a forced takeover. This has dragged out long enough.
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Old 11-15-2011, 03:04 PM #52
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...thats why there is an overtime in the psp?... lulz.
they dont go 14 min without a flag hang.
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Old 11-15-2011, 03:36 PM #53
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Unfortunately you're not in that 10%.

For example, NPPL attendance increased slightly from 2009 to 2010 by 5 teams for the entire season. For 2011, HB and Vegas attendance was up, but Chicago and DC attendance was up only 2 or 3 teams each.

So then the question becomes, how much of the increase in HB/Vegas attendance was because PSP just didn't run an event west of Texas this year, or because people thought Vegas might be the last national 7-man event ever? Apparently that netted at least one D1 team.

You also implied that PSP attendance is continually down when it isn't - it went from 612 teams last year to 680 this year.


- Chris
unfortunately chris you are wrong. hb attendance in 2009 was a little over a hundred. 2011 it was 133 i believe. chicago went up this year more than just 2 teams, and vegas was somewhere around 110 last year and now is 136.

and the comment about psp on a decline for the last 5 years was written by lane wright himself at the beginning of this year. so i guess the owner of the league doesnt know his own books.

lastly i wouldnt put too much weight in what you say chris considering how upset you are that the nppl wouldnt adopt your ****ty appa ranking system which to this day makes no sense. many will argue its a great system, but i know teams that were in 5th place who didnt make it to sunday when 7th place teams did.

-Dustin
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Old 11-15-2011, 03:47 PM #54
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Chris,
More fields are not indicative of more play time or more teams. In Galveston there were 6 fields for 126 teams. In New Jersey 6 fields for 122 teams and in Chicago 6 fields for 155 teams. Downtime on fields is not negligible when there are hours of inactivity on a field. With that said, what PSP does do well is reserve one field for one division/format so there is consistency.

As you pointed out above, correctly, PSP teams will play more games in a race to X format. More importantly they have more fields to accommodate different playing schedules within the same format. Ie, division race to 2 (Fri-Sun) and Division race to 2 (Sat-Sun). One of the hardest things is comparing apples to oranges with the format.

I do disagree that semi-auto has been dead. Are there cheaters? Sure there are, but also in PSP. Semi-auto is the last true difference in player’s gun skills. Ramping was invented to sell more paint and make it easier for average players to keep up. You know as well as I do that ramping doesn’t make a player better, but no ramping will show poor gun skills quicker.

I’ve played all 4 NPPL events this year and only know of one person who got caught with his gun on ramp instead of semi-auto. When you say “Short version, NPPL is already 15 bps 2-ball-per-pull ramping and PSP is 12.5 bps 3-ball-per-pull ramping, and merging those two is a very small issue”. You really haven’t played a recent NPPL event, have you?

On the numbers I looked at the team list and not the rankings. Although not entirely accurate as you said before, the difference is negligible.
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Old 11-15-2011, 03:52 PM #55
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Semi-auto is the last true difference in player’s gun skills.
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Old 11-15-2011, 03:59 PM #56
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Originally Posted by ***MINIONS*** View Post

lastly i wouldnt put too much weight in what you say chris considering how upset you are that the nppl wouldnt adopt your ****ty appa ranking system which to this day makes no sense. many will argue its a great system, but i know teams that were in 5th place who didnt make it to sunday when 7th place teams did.

-Dustin
I have been using the APPA system since 2004.

It is the ONLY player ranking system that has ever been consistent and understandable that has EVER been in existence in paintball.

Nothing that the NPPL has produced has ever been publicly available for anyone to confirm a player's ranking based on past tournaments. The NPPL's ranking system has time and time again proven to be unfair, inconsistent, and archaic. Keep in mind, I played in the NPPL in 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2011. I also love playing 7 man.

In regards to the last part of the above quoted comment, you will have to take that up with the PSP. The APPA does not make the rules up regarding tournament structure, the PSP does.

My team at Cup was one of those teams you just described. We were overall ranked 23rd (and they were taking top 24 to the next round). However, the way that this particular tournament was structured (due to the fact of how many 6 team brackets there were) they took top 3 from each bracket. We were 4th in our bracket at the end of prelims and did not move on.

When this was explained to us by Joe at the APPA, he made it clearly understandable how the PSP arranged the 2011 World Cup's structure for moving on from prelims. If anything, the APPA and their representatives do an amazing job being the PSP's liaison's to the teams and players regarding ranking, tournament structure, and rules. In the 7 years that I have been using the APPA, I have never had a problem with having somebody sit down and explain something to me.

At no time did we feel slighted by the PSP or the APPA. In fact, we felt as a team that if we had performed better against the teams in our bracket, there would have never needed to be an explanation as to why we were not moving on. We shafted ourselves.
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Old 11-15-2011, 04:53 PM #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kuykendall View Post
Chris,

As you pointed out above, correctly, PSP teams will play more games in a race to X format. More importantly they have more fields to accommodate different playing schedules within the same format. Ie, division race to 2 (Fri-Sun) and Division race to 2 (Sat-Sun). One of the hardest things is comparing apples to oranges with the format.
Tim this is big misconception of paintballers too. You dont play more paintball in race to and you dont have shorter down time. In race to you play 4 12 minute games, that's 48 minutes in prelims. In 7 man you play 8 7 minute games, that's 56 minutes. Granted not every game goes to 7 minutes it's still close. This is just a matter of "quality" of games. Do you wanna play 8 7 minute games or 20 2 minute games? pic your poison.

As far as down time in an average race to match whats the score about 3 to 2 maybe? That's two minutes in btwn points of a five point game. That is 10 minutes of down time in a 12 minute game, and that's not counting any time outs or how long it takes for transitioning of new matches.

Just a little food for thought for all of the misinformed.
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Old 11-15-2011, 06:55 PM #58
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Chris,
More fields are not indicative of more play time or more teams. In Galveston there were 6 fields for 126 teams. In New Jersey 6 fields for 122 teams and in Chicago 6 fields for 155 teams.
Chicago was 6 fields and FOUR DAYS for 155 teams. Think you missed that part.

Quote:
Downtime on fields is not negligible when there are hours of inactivity on a field. With that said, what PSP does do well is reserve one field for one division/format so there is consistency.
Well, certainly, there is a point where you go from 5 fields completely full to 6 fields with some down-time. That's still more teams than you could fit on 5 fields. If PSP has 6 fields instead of 5 fields, it's absolutely because the number of teams wouldn't fit on 5 fields. I can tell you for a fact that PSP has never built another field for any reason other than the teams wouldn't fit on one less field. (Because I either tell PSP how many fields they need to run the number of teams they have, or how many teams they can run on the number of fields available.)

It's also true that 4 PSP fields may not be more teams than 3 NPPL fields, but that's because things like RaceTo-7 are 36 (Thats thirty-six) prelim games compared to NPPL's 8.

More fields does mean more paintball is being played. And when it's 10 fields for 4 days over 3 fields for 3 days, that's a whole lot more paintball being played - 40 field days compared to 12.


Quote:
I do disagree that semi-auto has been dead. Are there cheaters? Sure there are, but also in PSP. Semi-auto is the last true difference in player’s gun skills.
Uh, so there is no difference in, say, aiming? Ridiculous.

And semi-auto isn't a skill when virtually no electronic gun shoots semi-auto. Rate of fire is almost entirely determined by how bouncy the gun is, not by the player's skill.

Quote:
Ramping was invented to sell more paint
Completely untrue. 12.5 bps ramping shoots less paint than 15 bps ramping (the NPPL firing mode).

[quote]and make it easier for average players to keep up.[quote]

Players were shooting much, much faster before capped ramping was introduced. It sounds like you were not around in 2004.

Quote:
You know as well as I do that ramping doesn’t make a player better, but no ramping will show poor gun skills quicker.
Ok, where are these players not using ramping? Certainly not on the field of a national-level paintball tournament (unless they're playing pump.)

Quote:
I’ve played all 4 NPPL events this year and only know of one person who got caught with his gun on ramp instead of semi-auto.
I drove to Chicago this weekend going 85-90 MPH most of the way there and back. Didn't get pulled over. I guess I wasn't speeding.

The fact that no one is caught ramping is exactly my point: There is no way to catch people who are not shooting semi-auto.

I mean, if everyone is ramping but just not getting caught, the result would be the same, right?

Quote:
When you say “Short version, NPPL is already 15 bps 2-ball-per-pull ramping and PSP is 12.5 bps 3-ball-per-pull ramping, and merging those two is a very small issue”. You really haven’t played a recent NPPL event, have you?
Who cares? I've been involved in tournament paintball since 1999 and spent years in school for electrical engineering. I know what the electronic guns do and how they work and what can be enforced and what can't.

And, to answer your question, I last played NPPL in Vegas in 2009.

Quote:
On the numbers I looked at the team list and not the rankings. Although not entirely accurate as you said before, the difference is negligible.
You said Chicago had 87 teams when it actually had 70. Off 25% doesn't seem negligible.

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Old 11-15-2011, 07:00 PM #59
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unfortunately chris you are wrong. hb attendance in 2009 was a little over a hundred. 2011 it was 133 i believe. chicago went up this year more than just 2 teams, and vegas was somewhere around 110 last year and now is 136.
Wow, you don't even know when you're wrong.

Total NPPL team attendance in 2009 was 322. In 2010 it was 327.

Chicago team count in 2010 was 68. In 2011 it was 70. (According to NPPL rankings - so if I'm wrong it's because the NPPL rankings are wrong.)

Quote:
and the comment about psp on a decline for the last 5 years was written by lane wright himself at the beginning of this year. so i guess the owner of the league doesnt know his own books.
He made that comment a YEAR AGO. So no, a YEAR AGO, he didn't know what the current numbers are.

Quote:
lastly i wouldnt put too much weight in what you say chris considering how upset you are that the nppl wouldnt adopt your ****ty appa ranking system which to this day makes no sense. many will argue its a great system, but i know teams that were in 5th place who didnt make it to sunday when 7th place teams did.
Again, you don't seem to know what you are talking about.

Top 2 teams per bracket always advance. So yes, the 3rd place team in a bracket with a higher point total will not advance over a 2nd place team in another bracket with a lower point total. That's just the system doing what the rules say to do.

- Chris
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Old 11-15-2011, 07:10 PM #60
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Wow, you don't even know when you're wrong.

Total NPPL team attendance in 2009 was 322. In 2010 it was 327.

Chicago team count in 2010 was 68. In 2011 it was 70. (According to NPPL rankings - so if I'm wrong it's because the NPPL rankings are wrong.)




He made that comment a YEAR AGO. So no, a YEAR AGO, he didn't know what the current numbers are.



Again, you don't seem to know what you are talking about.

Top 2 teams per bracket always advance. So yes, the 3rd place team in a bracket with a higher point total will not advance over a 2nd place team in another bracket with a lower point total. That's just the system doing what the rules say to do.

- Chris
ok chris we'll go with your numbers. 2009 was 322 teams. 2011 394 teams. that's almost a 20% increase. yeah nppl i guess isnt doing so hot.

Second he made that post at the start of the new season. We are still in 2011. and even if he did go up this year he had a constant decline for 5 years prior.

Third, you are proving my point by your third comment. Youre telling me if a team goes 3 and 1 they could not make sunday, but a team that goes 1 and 3 can go depending on the bracket theyre in. yeah like i said APPA=bull****. but i wouldnt expect the creator to admit that.

-Dustin

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Old 11-15-2011, 11:56 PM #61
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Tim this is big misconception of paintballers too. You dont play more paintball in race to and you dont have shorter down time. In race to you play 4 12 minute games, that's 48 minutes in prelims. In 7 man you play 8 7 minute games, that's 56 minutes.
Even if we accept that's true, how much of that 7 minutes is spent running a flag from one end of the 180' field to the other instead of actually playing paintball?

Quote:
Granted not every game goes to 7 minutes it's still close. This is just a matter of "quality" of games. Do you wanna play 8 7 minute games or 20 2 minute games? pic your poison.
Most PSP matches go to time or overtime. Average match time is about 11 minutes of play, and almost none of that is running flags in (teams that are down toss the towel or run it in).

So we're comparing at least 40 minutes of real play time with 20 breakouts to maybe 40 minutes of real play time (not counting running around with a flag after everyone is dead or points ending early) with 8 breakouts. And that's only comparing D3/D4; the higher the division in PSP the more play time.

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As far as down time in an average race to match whats the score about 3 to 2 maybe? That's two minutes in btwn points of a five point game. That is 10 minutes of down time in a 12 minute game, and that's not counting any time outs or how long it takes for transitioning of new matches.
RaceTo-4 matches schedule every 25 minutes, with 20 matches per field per 10-hour day, including breaks. With about 5 points per match, that's one point every 5 minutes, and 100 points for the day.

7-man schedules every 8 minutes, which gets you 60 games per 10-hour day with breaks. That's 100 3-minute games vs. 60 5-minute games.

Or, 300 minutes of actual game time either way.

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Just a little food for thought for all of the misinformed.
It's nice to see you try and feed yourself, but you might want to try getting more into your mouth next time.


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Old 11-16-2011, 12:10 AM #62
***MINIONS*** (Banned)
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Originally Posted by raehl View Post
Even if we accept that's true, how much of that 7 minutes is spent running a flag from one end of the 180' field to the other instead of actually playing paintball?



Most PSP matches go to time or overtime. Average match time is about 11 minutes of play, and almost none of that is running flags in (teams that are down toss the towel or run it in).

So we're comparing at least 40 minutes of real play time with 20 breakouts to maybe 40 minutes of real play time (not counting running around with a flag after everyone is dead or points ending early) with 8 breakouts. And that's only comparing D3/D4; the higher the division in PSP the more play time.



RaceTo-4 matches schedule every 25 minutes, with 20 matches per field per 10-hour day, including breaks. With about 5 points per match, that's one point every 5 minutes, and 100 points for the day.

7-man schedules every 8 minutes, which gets you 60 games per 10-hour day with breaks. That's 100 3-minute games vs. 60 5-minute games.

Or, 300 minutes of actual game time either way.



It's nice to see you try and feed yourself, but you might want to try getting more into your mouth next time.


- Chris
Really chris? Really? all this time is spent running in flags in 7 man? ok well how bout this? you hang a flag 8 times in prelims in 7 man. granted you run it 180 ft, you will hang a flag what 5 times in per match for 4 matches at 75 feet. that's 1500 feet of flag running in psp and 1440 feet of running in nppl. hey chris you dropped some food there.

and most matches go to overtime? really? bull****. that's all i have to say. bull****. prove to me that most matches go into overtime. i ran a field in psp new jersey and i think 2 games went into overtime the entire day each day.

and if you think you play more games in psp pro you should ask the nppl pro players in top 4 how many games they play on sunday.
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Old 11-16-2011, 12:12 AM #63
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Originally Posted by ***MINIONS*** View Post
Im talking not only about teams chris but teams that constantly show up.
Seems like you changed what you were talking about. You said attendance - which most people would take to mean number of teams, or number of players - was constantly up. You then cited some numbers that were false.

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I mean event numbers are going up every year. You are comparing two different things. Obviously a league will make more money if teams are playing every event over just one event.
That's not obvious, that's false. A league with 5 different teams that play one event each will make MORE money than a league with one team that plays all 5 events. You would much rather have many different teams than the same teams, if the team count itself is the same.

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Second he made that post at the start of the new season. We are still in 2011.
You're kidding, right? He made the post nearly a year ago, but since the calendar number didn't switch over yet totally ignore the complete paintball season that's transpired since then?

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and even if he did go up this year he had a constant decline for 5 years prior.
Maybe, but he didn't go bankrupt three years ago either now did he? NPPL didn't just decline, it went bankrupt!

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Third, you are proving my point by your third comment.
I did no such thing.

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Youre telling me if a team goes 3 and 1 they could not make sunday, but a team that goes 1 and 3 can go depending on the bracket theyre in.
No, I'm not. It is not possible for a team to go 1 and 3 and be 2nd in their bracket. So no, a 1 and 3 team would NEVER advance over a 3 and 1 team. But that's the difference between you and me it seems - I actually know what I'm talking about.

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yeah like i said APPA=bull****.
Did you miss the part where Diemus pointed out that who advances has NOTHING TO DO WITH APPA?

The teams that advance are determined by the rules each league has in place.

PSP, like virtually EVERY OTHER SPORT ON THE PLANET, and EVERY paintball league I have worked with for the DECADE I've been doing this, advances a set number of teams per bracket. Play the Olympics, it's the top 2 teams per bracket advance, even if 2nd place in one bracket went 1-2 and 3rd place in another bracket went 2-1. The NFL is top teams per conference, regardless of whether a top team in one conference has a worse record than a not top team in another conference. It's the same for pretty much every single sport out there.

So why does virtually every single sport out there advance teams out of brackets in a way that you claim makes "APPA bull****" ?

Because if you don't do it that way, teams in a bracket can conspire to split the wins to guarantee they all advance. I get to my last of 5 matches and I already have 3 wins, I throw the win to the other team and we guarantee we both make it with 3 wins each. With more planning, I can conspire before I even play a single match to be virtually positive me and two other teams all get three wins.

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but i wouldnt expect the creator to admit that.
Not when the creator has a clue.

Again, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. You're claiming things are "bull****" not because they actually are, but because you simply do not understand them.


- Chris
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Last edited by raehl : 11-16-2011 at 12:45 AM.
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