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Old 07-29-2011, 09:45 PM #1
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Lightbulb A “Shipping Goes By Feedback” BST Rule..

So throughout the trades I have done on this site, I have noticed only one thing that is heavily starting to bother me…

I have noticed PbNation probably has one of the best BST feedback systems on …any… kind of BST website. This should be used though…
My issue reguards people with much less feddback that tell me I have to ship first. This is unacceptable on other websites, such as the site that cannot be named….

For example, a random 10 year old boy joins. Join Date: July 2011, Feedback: 0/0/0. He makes a thread of his GEO2 and wants to trade for my Luxe. We work out a deal all the way through to the end where he goes, “alrite heres my address, ship first to me and ill make sure the gun is exactly what u said, n then i will ship after i get and shoot ur gun.”

With a rule in place, stating the person with heavier feedback will not be shipping first and has the main decision of what occurs in a transaction, I feel it would make A LOT of BST guys on nation much happier. I’ve even worked with some of the low feedback guys. I legit got scammed out of my GEO2 for an SLS that he later decided to sell to somone else, because some guy with 1 feedback “couldnt ship first.” Yeah no not really, he just wanted my GEO2… Long story short I got it back with help of the authorities.

Besides that, everything on PbN works great, but this really is the main thing that urks me.

Thanks a lot,
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:39 PM #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintballer14t View Post
So throughout the trades I have done on this site, I have noticed only one thing that is heavily starting to bother me…

I have noticed PbNation probably has one of the best BST feedback systems on …any… kind of BST website. This should be used though…
My issue reguards people with much less feddback that tell me I have to ship first. This is unacceptable on other websites, such as the site that cannot be named….

For example, a random 10 year old boy joins. Join Date: July 2011, Feedback: 0/0/0. He makes a thread of his GEO2 and wants to trade for my Luxe. We work out a deal all the way through to the end where he goes, “alrite heres my address, ship first to me and ill make sure the gun is exactly what u said, n then i will ship after i get and shoot ur gun.”

With a rule in place, stating the person with heavier feedback will not be shipping first and has the main decision of what occurs in a transaction, I feel it would make A LOT of BST guys on nation much happier. I’ve even worked with some of the low feedback guys. I legit got scammed out of my GEO2 for an SLS that he later decided to sell to somone else, because some guy with 1 feedback “couldnt ship first.” Yeah no not really, he just wanted my GEO2… Long story short I got it back with help of the authorities.

Besides that, everything on PbN works great, but this really is the main thing that urks me.

Thanks a lot,
Ace
I am not sure how it can be an enforced rule but I know exactly how you feel man it seems more and more everyday kids try saying "my parents wont let me ship first" or something of the sort. Which obviously can be a complete lie and if that is true they should not be BST on here in the first place..
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:41 PM #3
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Members BST rules hold no real ground around here.

If you dont see safe shipping first then work out a deal to do same time or do 3rd party.
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:41 AM #4
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this will not work, people won't want to do this.

if you don't feel comfortable shipping first, then say so and work it out, and there are other options such as the one mentioned above. if the other party doesn't wanna do a 3rd party or ship first, then move on to someone who will
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Old 07-30-2011, 01:04 AM #5
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Hopefully you don't need an item so bad that you immediately think someone with no feedback has that power over you. If you don't want to ship first, then don't.

So if you want a GEO2, and someone has it for $5000, and wont negotiate, are you going to just fork over the $5000 or go to someone else? There are many components to any deal:

Product
Price (or trade value)
Payment Method
Shipping Style (USPS, UPS, FEDEX)
Payment/Shipping Order (who ships first)

PBN cannot make solid rules for all of those. I just did some transactions with someone, and we agreed on what I was buying (Gun only, gun with upgrades, upgrades only, etc.), the price I would be paying, how I would pay (he gave option for PayPal OR MO), I didn't much care who he shipped through, I just wanted a tracking # (so I left that to him), and I paid first (granted he had more feedback than me).

Yes, generally the buyer will pay first when it is simple b/s, and as for trading, generally if someone has massive feedback compared to the other, then lower ships first (or in case of both massive feedback, they might ship at same time), but PBN can't monitor the PM's to see what the deal was, or say how the deal should go. It is just that, a deal.

TL : DR

Work it out with seller. If they don't want to work on terms you're comfortable with, move on.
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Old 07-30-2011, 08:27 AM #6
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Work it out with seller. If they don't want to work on terms you're comfortable with, move on.
This is how it goes... as with anywhere.
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Old 07-30-2011, 10:10 AM #7
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Better yet, shell out the extra bucks to get a trusted third party to handle your transaction. I'd much rather be out a couple extra bucks, than end up embroiled in a bad transaction.
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Old 07-30-2011, 10:30 AM #8
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Better yet, shell out the extra bucks to get a trusted third party to handle your transaction. I'd much rather be out a couple extra bucks, than end up embroiled in a bad transaction.
Too true...
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Old 07-30-2011, 11:09 AM #9
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Quote:
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Better yet, shell out the extra bucks to get a trusted third party to handle your transaction. I'd much rather be out a couple extra bucks, than end up embroiled in a bad transaction.


again, something to work in the deal
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Old 07-30-2011, 06:32 PM #10
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Attempting to regulate shipping practices would put us on a slippery slope. Dictating who ships first would open us up to liability for deals gone wrong. I've found that a few easy concepts will ensure a generally good experience.

1. Don't ship first to new members or people with low feedback.
2. Use common sense. If it's too good to be true, it probably is.
3. When in doubt, use a third party.
4. Gather and verify full contact information no matter who ships first.
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Old 07-30-2011, 07:58 PM #11
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Originally Posted by paintballer14t View Post
My issue reguards people with much less feddback that tell me I have to ship first. This is unacceptable on other websites, such as the site that cannot be named….
The site that cannot be named is also around 37,000 members, including active, inactive, and banned users. This site is around 275,000 active users, not banned (by active I mean has a post or more). It's more easy by a ton to regulate something as such on that site than it is on here.
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Old 07-30-2011, 09:31 PM #12
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the smaller the site, the easier to regulate things like this
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:55 AM #13
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i wish this could work because i hate breaking deals with people because they wont ship first.

FEEDBACK IS THERE FOR A REASON!!!!!

i had to ship first before i had feedback so should you.
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:31 AM #14
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Even on the other site they can't regulate who ships first. The buyer/seller has the right to refuse business. Plain and simple. Just don't do business with that person.

Heck I have people who refuse to ship first to me. I think I've earned that right. They don't. I just go on to the next person.
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:51 AM #15
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My way of thinking with outright purchases, you pay, I ship. No different than a store. You don't go to wal-mart and say "I'll pay you once I get it home..."

As for trades, that's sticky... For me, it takes a lot of gauging how the person is before I agree to send my gear to them before they send me theirs. Every person wants to believe that they are more important than the next, and in a trade situation that causes drama. My personal philosophy, I don't generally favor trades. Cash over everything else, and I'll use that cash to get what I want. It removes the drama from "YOU SHIP FIRST" bs...

But, that said each person is going to make the decision for themselves.

Quote:
Heck I have people who refuse to ship first to me. I think I've earned that right. They don't. I just go on to the next person.
And this is exactly how it should be.... If someone refuses to ship first and you're set on having that requirement met, then just hit up the next person you have offering up on the gear. It's nothing that needs to have legislation put in place to control someone into sending their gear into a situation that may cost them a lot of money. Imagine if there's a scammer out there who in the course of a couple days commits feedback fraud, has enough feedback to beat out your feedback score (albeit fake), and because of that you're forced to ship first. He's a scammer and now has your 2011 1 of 1 super uber rare NT11 that you value at $2k. (yeah, stretching it here...) You have nothing. Which would you rather have? An extra few days of waiting for someone to deal with you, or to have a higher possibility of being screwed?
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Old 07-31-2011, 11:21 AM #16
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You can't compare a physical store transaction to bst on PbN. They aren't the same thing. At a store you receive the items at the same time you pay for them, the item is already in your hands and you are now just paying for ownership.
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:08 PM #17
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Perhaps not a physical store, no... But an online store such as ansgear, zephyr, or even amazon for that matter is probably a better example. You don't pay for your goods after they've been shipped to your home, do you? I'm no different, and neither are most people here in the BST. It's a risk, I honestly don't expect of anyone regardless of feedback. If I'm buying something, then I'm paying first... Even if my feedback is higher than yours or the next guys. My opinion is that is the way it should be. The difference is, if the person I'm trying to negotiate with feels differently, then I move on. I don't want extra legislation stating that I have to exchange gear/money in a certain order, that's unsafe and ridiculous.

Here's a better situation for you: eBay. How often do you see purchases being made where the customer purchases an item, but because their feedback is higher the seller has to ship before payment is received? Never. Because it's extremely unsafe for the seller. Who, aside from the uninformed, would put themselves into that situation? Trades, however, offer an interesting twist because there are two people who potentially could be ripped off. I've never been a fan of trades, although I have done one or two, for this very reason. My honest opinion is that there really can't be any legislation against this either, just suggestions to those who are willing to deal with trades. Have common sense, request all the photos you can, possibly complete with current dates and usernames, and use that feedback as a reference, not a rule... But again, just suggestions. Too many rules, as stated by eforcegtid00d, would put PbN in a tight spot as far as liability is concerned. Leave the ruleset as is.

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Old 07-31-2011, 05:33 PM #18
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This isn't an online store, brick-and-mortor store, or eBay. This is an online forum. The closest thing you could relate it to would be craigslist.

With PM's, you cannot regulate what deal is made for who ships first.

General rule of thumb is buyer pays first. As for trades, general rule is lower feedback ships first.

There are a few exceptions (I might ship first for jmorisaki on a sell, maybe... ), but as I said, it is all part of the deal!!! If the other party cannot agree, then move on.
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Old 07-31-2011, 08:58 PM #19
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Originally Posted by eforcegtid00d View Post
Attempting to regulate shipping practices would put us on a slippery slope. Dictating who ships first would open us up to liability for deals gone wrong. I've found that a few easy concepts will ensure a generally good experience.

1. Don't ship first to new members or people with low feedback.
2. Use common sense. If it's too good to be true, it probably is.
3. When in doubt, use a third party.
4. Gather and verify full contact information no matter who ships first.
^ Well put

In all honesty just because you ship first to a person with alot of positive feedback doesn't mean that they aren't going to steal your gear as they can do it just as easy as someone with low or no positive feedback (it all depends on the person). Also the liability factor comes into play here as well. As with any online site shipping if you don't feel completly comfortable shipping first in a trade don't do it or get a 3rd party involved.
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:04 PM #20
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^ Well put

In all honesty just because you ship first to a person with alot of positive feedback doesn't mean that they aren't going to steal your gear as they can do it just as easy as someone with low or no positive feedback (it all depends on the person). Also the liability factor comes into play here as well. As with any online site shipping if you don't feel completly comfortable shipping first in a trade don't do it or get a 3rd party involved.
Not exactly. A person with more feedback has more value to their account. A person with 100 feedback, ASM, BST Trust, etc; can be much more trusted than someone who joined in 2011 with neither those things and 1 feedback from buying a squeegee….. Why? Because at least one of those 100 people have some type of info on the guy, and he’ll be easily trapped if he decided to scam a person. Which he wouldn’t. Guys with that much feedback on here value their account more than you could believe. Even me with only 33 feedback…. I’d never even think about scamming a person and value my accounts existence more than my own. Lol. Point is, someone who has proven they’re real deserves to have others with less feedback ship first to them. Because it’s really simple. Who ships first? Mr 2k11 with 1 feedback or mr 2k6 with 3932 feedback?! I mean it’s obvious who has done the work and the guys with the most feedback truly don’t deserve the bs that comes along with deals.
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:30 PM #21
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I agree with what you are saying to a extent, I'm saying someone with lets say 40+ FB wakes up and decides he is going to quit paintballing and that he no longer cares about his pbnation account and figures he wants to get what he can for it. Now whats of more value to him his account or $1000 of gear that someone shipped first to him. Like it's not going to happen everyday but it is deffenitly possible. That is also going to push new users away from the site as they may not feel comfortable shipping their gear first. As with any selling or trading done on the site the best way to do it is whoever makes the thread that has the gear to trade ships last as you came to him, IF YOU DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE SHIPPING TO HIM FIRST HIS GEAR IS NOT FOR YOU. I will be honest with you I am a 2k11'er and I would never scam anyone why should I be forced to ship first due to feedback when I put MY gear for trade? Like I said it all depends on the person. On a side note maybe Pbnation could do something to verify the users identity and link it to their account (such as paypal) and that way as long as both users are verifyed it really wouldn't matter who ships first (ex. make BST Trust mandatory).

"1 feedback from buying a squeegee….." Also what is keeping someone from buying 75 squeegees? They would have higher rep then most people in this case.
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