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Old 07-02-2011, 07:28 PM #1
SomeoneWhoIsntMe
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Waterford, MI
Few questions about finishing my open bolt cocker

I've got a Lightning body with the following done thus far:

milled for halfblock
drilled/tapped holes, mounted an etek 1 frame
drilled for 3mm breakbeam eyes
plugged holes for stock ASA, put a mini ASA in the front block, since the frame is so long.
turned a custom hammer with a slot in it so it moves back and forth with the bolt/sled
maddman tornado valve, hopefully for a lower operating pressure

I'm trying to get it to run soon, and the plan is to get a MAC 33 or a Humphrey CRCB, run no LPR and just have a hose from the LPR port to the air supply for the noid. Is that going to be a bad idea? I know rocket valve cockers can shoot 280fps off 180psi if need be, and even the MAC valve is good for 200psi. I figure the gun will cycle faster this way, and I'll only have to worry about outshooting one reg. And, hopefully the ram's force will be enough to fire the poppet reliably without having to run a main spring.

That said, will 200psi be an issue for the LP tubing on the 3-way? I need fittings for M3 and for 10-32, so I can use either hose barbs or push-to-connect fittings with 1/8" OD tubing. Would the push-to-connect fittings be more reliable / worth the expense?

Also, as far as boards go, should I get a t-board, or can I use an aftermarket etek board with 3mm eyes instead of the stock etek/ego square ones? Also, will an etek board be able to drive a CRCB or a MAC 33?
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Old 07-03-2011, 01:48 AM #2
Spitlebug
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You can get line that will handle the pressure. Try microline. It's slightly smaller than macroline, same material and the ID is much smaller. The biggest problem with microline is the bending radius si much larger because the wall thickness is a lot higher.

Also, you can get push lock fittings for micro line which are much larger (which doesn't help with the bend radius) but are much better at retaining the hose. Push fittings come in M5 so that will a problem, but I am pretty sure you can get MAC noids with M5 threads.

*edit* You can get them in M3 threading and up to 14 bar which is 203 psi.

Camozzi and Festo make them and you can get straight fittings and swivel and 90* fittings.
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Last edited by Spitlebug : 07-03-2011 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 07-03-2011, 10:42 AM #3
y0da900
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I just found this spectacular tubing on McMaster-Carr:

5648K221

Part numbers ranging from that one to 5648K227 are all the same tubing, just different colors. 255psi working pressure, 1/4" bend radius.

And an Etek board (at least an Etek 1, I can not speak to the others) will drive a Mac 33 just fine. I bought an Etek dirt cheap knowing it had a blown noid, and tossed a Mac 43 in there. You need the nice flexible tubing to get it to fit in the frame without any milling, but it works great. A 43 has a slightly higher current draw than a 33, so it shouldn't be a problem.

I'm not quite getting how you are planning on running this thing though? It sounds like you are simply making it electro-pneumatic using the original Cocker ram, but that will require a 4-way valve, not a 3-way. You could try running air to the front port and it will act like an air spring, but that decreases the net force acting on the ram making it less likely to work.
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Old 07-04-2011, 02:03 PM #4
SomeoneWhoIsntMe
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That's a good point, I didn't realise the mac 33 was only a 3-way.... even with QEV's, it wouldn't be able to cycle correctly?

edit: I guess you still need an exhaust port to get the QEV's to open, dumb question...

so, has to operate at ~150-200psi (since it's not being struck by an sprung hammer anymore I can just turn the dwell up on the board to get the velocity I need, and the rocket valve is LP to begin with), and it needs to be a 4- or 5-way valve. if I can't get the $22 MAC valve to work, I might as well just drop the $62 on a CRCB?

Last edited by SomeoneWhoIsntMe : 07-04-2011 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 07-04-2011, 03:19 PM #5
y0da900
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Correct, no way around using a 4 or 5 way besides making it sprung in one direction - which can be an air or physical spring.

A Mac 43 is rated for 125, not sure how high they actually work though. A Mac 33 is officially rated for 200 (at least the ones that we use in paintball are), and I've run well over 300 through mine before with no problem. Not sure of any 4-ways that are rated for that kind of pressure though.
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:16 PM #6
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Running 180psi to a ram seems like you'll have an unreasonable amount of kick...

I'm not even sure if cocker rams are rated to handle up to 200psi.

I don't think that the lpr is really a significant limiting factor in the cocker design (as you can tell by numerous other guns having an lpr and cycling faster than you can shoot).
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:47 PM #7
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I have (quite) a few questions and some comments:

You didn't mention the ram. Do you have one selected? How are you planning on mounting it? Why not have it integral to the hammer, ala Etek style? Your not thinking of mounting it to the front block, are you?

Current guns with an LPR have no issues with speed really. Unless you are planning 20+bps, which isn't allowed at any tourney any more, and several guns do run that speed with LPRs. Even then, I tuned E-cockers that were near 20bps often, and could tune most to upper teens. I see no advantage to not using an LPR, and several advantages to using one. The largest being the adjustment for velocities sake, and a smoother operation. Plus easier and cheaper to source boards, 'noids, hosing, etc.

I would recommend the smallest diameter ram you can find, since the pressure with even the smallest at 180psi will be 2-4 times the force you would need to run, and small rams cycle far faster. And when you use an LPR (which I think you will end up doing anyways) a small dia ram will run at a higher pressure, but with the same force as a larger dia ram running at less pressure. The higher pressure means the air cycles through the air lines faster, making a faster gun. Clippard has a small ram I used to build a few high speed cockers, but larger rams rarely broke 12-15bps.

So: Small ram, LPR are my recommendations.
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Old 07-07-2011, 08:02 PM #8
SomeoneWhoIsntMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
I have (quite) a few questions and some comments:

You didn't mention the ram. Do you have one selected? How are you planning on mounting it? Why not have it integral to the hammer, ala Etek style? Your not thinking of mounting it to the front block, are you?

Current guns with an LPR have no issues with speed really. Unless you are planning 20+bps, which isn't allowed at any tourney any more, and several guns do run that speed with LPRs. Even then, I tuned E-cockers that were near 20bps often, and could tune most to upper teens. I see no advantage to not using an LPR, and several advantages to using one. The largest being the adjustment for velocities sake, and a smoother operation. Plus easier and cheaper to source boards, 'noids, hosing, etc.

I would recommend the smallest diameter ram you can find, since the pressure with even the smallest at 180psi will be 2-4 times the force you would need to run, and small rams cycle far faster. And when you use an LPR (which I think you will end up doing anyways) a small dia ram will run at a higher pressure, but with the same force as a larger dia ram running at less pressure. The higher pressure means the air cycles through the air lines faster, making a faster gun. Clippard has a small ram I used to build a few high speed cockers, but larger rams rarely broke 12-15bps.

So: Small ram, LPR are my recommendations.
I just got a different cocker running, and after timing it I can see that, yeah, LPR turned way down cycles smoother. I think I'll just keep my eyes open for a stock eblade noid and cover, and run a normal cocker LPR with a standard ram instead of blowing money on tubing / fittings / etc.
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