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Old 05-23-2011, 12:40 PM #22
Spartan 03
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I've reffed NPPL and PSP for 3 years, as well as local tournaments, and I can not figure out where this idea that if there is no shell it is rub and if there is shell its a hit. Whether there is shell present or not is completely irrelevant. I've seen hits on bunkers with shell in them, I've seen rub with shell on them and I've seen hits on players without shell. Do yourself a favor and get over the myth of "shell or no shell" determining what kind of hit it is. You're just giving yourself heartburn over nothing. No experienced ref looks at whether there is shell or not, and an experienced ref will know what is rub and what isn't. Unfortunately, I've seen hopper hits that look like rub and get missed, and in the early days I've pulled players with rub before I got more experience reffing. I clean my bunkers between every game to cut down on those kinds of calls, but players shoot the bunkers as they run in, sometimes on purpose. I saw one player this weekend with so much rub on his gun and body that I wondered if he managed to send a single shot downfield.
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Old 05-23-2011, 01:23 PM #23
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Field two was rough, I know we had 3 one for ones called on us, one of which was justified, one of which was very questionable and the other was total b.s. (pack hit). But As has been stated above, they only had 6 refs, and they were working thier ***** off. Bad and questionable calls are going to happen at every level, and this same type of thread arises after every event and I know this same thread will reappear after the D.C. event. All you can do it approach the ref after the match and talk to them in a calm manor and get clarrification as to what happen in there eyes, which may not be what acutally happen, but reffs are human and make mistakes, It happens, its part of the sport and I hate to say this, but deal with it.
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Old 05-23-2011, 01:30 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmoney003

you dont need shell to tel if its a hit.

what I assumed happened...is since the ref was called in...he determined (his opinion) it was a valid hit...the player called for a check on an easily verifyable obvious hit so assed a one for one. Bad call that it was a hit? maybe...bad call for the one for one? not if he thought it was a hit...it would then be the correct call
It wasn't so much the lack of shell as it was lack of paint. It was splatter. You should be able to tell the difference between a hit and paint splatter. Its hard to describe how little paint it was. But nevertheless, it boils down to not enough refs to watch. I understand that the refs were overwhelmed. It's not their fault but seriously. Calling splatter that was obviously not a hit a hit and giving a penalty because of it seems a bit off. But it's good to know we aren't the only team that had problems.
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Old 05-23-2011, 01:43 PM #25
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I commend the refs on field 2 for trying hard. I appreciate the hard work they put in during a long, hot and humid weekend. With that said, I feel like they were understaffed and in some cases undertrained. There were a lot of bad/missed calls, but I feel like another 2-4 refs on the field could have made all the difference. Reffing is a hard and thankless job, and I feel like the NPPL kind of threw you guys (and gal) under the bus by understaffing and make you guys work all the harder.

The only really meaningful complaint I had about the refs was them listening to players or the sidelines when they shouldn't. On two separate occasions I traded with players but the other player was left in, apparently because they were screaming "I shot him first I shot him first!" Don't list to the Jedi mind trick. Trust your judgement, make a call and stick to it. If it's too close to call who shot who first, call both players out. We trust you guys to get the calls right most of the time.

Thanks for sweating out there so we could all have fun. Some of us really appreciate it.
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Old 05-23-2011, 01:53 PM #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan 03 View Post
I've reffed NPPL and PSP for 3 years, as well as local tournaments, and I can not figure out where this idea that if there is no shell it is rub and if there is shell its a hit. Whether there is shell present or not is completely irrelevant. I've seen hits on bunkers with shell in them, I've seen rub with shell on them and I've seen hits on players without shell. Do yourself a favor and get over the myth of "shell or no shell" determining what kind of hit it is. You're just giving yourself heartburn over nothing. No experienced ref looks at whether there is shell or not, and an experienced ref will know what is rub and what isn't. Unfortunately, I've seen hopper hits that look like rub and get missed, and in the early days I've pulled players with rub before I got more experience reffing. I clean my bunkers between every game to cut down on those kinds of calls, but players shoot the bunkers as they run in, sometimes on purpose. I saw one player this weekend with so much rub on his gun and body that I wondered if he managed to send a single shot downfield.
the other thing you forgot is you can get shot and be a dead player and literally have no paint at all on you. as long as the ball hits you and brakes YOU ARE OUT. this happens a lot with pack hits braking off of a pack.
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Old 05-23-2011, 01:55 PM #27
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Thank you to everyone who acknowledges that we are doing our best out there. The NPPL does thier best to hire and train the best refs they can, and we all do our best to make the right calls. Good reffing comes with experience, and there is only one way to gain experience. Fortunately, for every one player who complains about a call and then generalizes it to "the refs suck" there are five who compliment and thank us for the work we do. I can't speak for the NPPL of course, but I can tell you as a ref that they care VERY much about the quality of thier ref staff and are constantly making improvements. Their goal is to be the most professional tournament in the nation.
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Old 05-23-2011, 01:56 PM #28
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one ref pulled more one for one's than I've ever seen. The guy with the red, white, and blue dumb hat thing. I saw him pull two 1 for 1's on pack hits which are defined as un-obvious hits so you can't pull a penalty.
i know that reff.....actually a really swell guy.
but i talked to him about some of the calls he made and told me straight up that
most pack hits he saw were on the belt area....thus making it an obvious hit area.
and i would know he pulled me on a 1 for 1.....he had to chase me down snake to get me but he still got me lol
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Old 05-23-2011, 02:03 PM #29
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we got a one for one for over shooting a guy...lame.
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Old 05-23-2011, 02:23 PM #30
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We played Chicago on field 2.
Overall I think the ref's did a good job. However there were times the inexperience did show and some calls (made and not made) cost teams a match. You have the same thing in every tourny. Every player/team thinks they got bad calls. Both playing and watching field 2 I saw alot more hits not called than 2 for 1's.

Here was the bigger problem(s)
There simply wasn't enough ref's on field 2.
One ref would wave off a hit and another ref would come-up and call the hit and call a 2-1. If the previous ref did not call the hit, after checking, it is reasonable to expect the player to play on.
On Saturday or Sunday I don't think I ever saw the chrono ref properly wear her face shield (covering her eyes) in while checking, shooting or handling guns.

My biggest frustration was the head ref not listening to valid complaints. It is reasonable to think the refs are human and doing the best they can. When the ref from the other side crosses the field, checks the player and calls a hit immediately after the first ref checked him/her they should not call a 2-1 for continuing to play and the first ref should know to speak up and call the 2-1 off, or the second ref should know to not call a 2-1 because the player is doing what seems right after the first check.

Also, I hate to start this one again, but hits in the pod pack, even the belt, are not always obvious. Again, I said, not always obvious. I will say one of our players who was hit on the side of the pod sleeve was called for a 2-1. OK, I didn't see it, but the rule should be changed to pull player that do not immediately give the advantage tot he opposing team. You should pull both the snake and snake corner, or both the d2 player and d corner. Spread teh love across the field.
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Old 05-23-2011, 02:29 PM #31
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how about those sweet sidelines on field 2?
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Old 05-23-2011, 02:44 PM #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Pimpin View Post
how about those sweet sidelines on field 2?
Don't get me started.

Tim, are you sure they were 2-for-1? Meaning, two other players in addition to the player shot (3 total)? 1-for-1 is the shot player and a team mate. I ask because I don't recall seeing that many 2-for-1's called.
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Old 05-23-2011, 02:55 PM #33
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o i remember a few. onein sucha player was checking to see if he was hit and was checking and they called him for wipping. and also on sat our snake guy got called out all 3 matches for old hits.
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Old 05-23-2011, 02:56 PM #34
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You are correct, 1-1 is the rule and the calls made. Had a brain fart. Thanks for the correction.
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Old 05-23-2011, 03:26 PM #35
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quit complaining and dont get shot.. the rule book says that it is under the refs disgression wether or not it is an obvious hit. if it is an obvious hit and u are occupying a bunker while dead it is considered a penalty. and yes pack hits r allowed to be called obvious hits. u cant always control the refs.. sum pull penalties easily but its their job, nothing u can do but play. next time jus dont giv the other team a chance to gain an advantage by not getting shot.
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Old 05-23-2011, 08:12 PM #36
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Quote:
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quit complaining and dont get shot.. the rule book says that it is under the refs disgression wether or not it is an obvious hit. if it is an obvious hit and u are occupying a bunker while dead it is considered a penalty. and yes pack hits r allowed to be called obvious hits. u cant always control the refs.. sum pull penalties easily but its their job, nothing u can do but play. next time jus dont giv the other team a chance to gain an advantage by not getting shot.
dude i dont care who you are everybody gets shot.
On field 2 people was bouncing balls off the net into the snake corner.
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Old 05-23-2011, 08:19 PM #37
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off the net and into my head and side
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Old 05-23-2011, 08:51 PM #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by underpressure69 View Post
On field 2 people was bouncing balls off the net into the snake corner.
Which is unbelievably hard to ref, once we realized it was happening. I found that if I had my hand against the net while watching the back corner I could tell from feeling the impact on the net when someone was trying to bank one in. Unfortunately, that only worked if I was standing right there. If I had to move to another place or check a player then come back to see someone in the can with a hit, I didn't have many options about the call. I did clean one guy off a bank shot, but that was it. If there were more, I'm sorry I wasn't able to make that call.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:25 PM #39
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There were 6 refs on field 2 to watch 14 players. Enough said. I know you can do better NPPL.
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Old 05-24-2011, 06:34 PM #40
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We found the refing to be lacking. Mostly they did not know the 2011 NPPL rules. All of my guys know all of the rules and they arnt refing, you would think that the refs would also know the rules. The chrono ref flicking the triggers of the markers to check for bounce? If you have your set screw tight against your micro switch for a short pull of course it might shoot again when you flick it. But who the hell shoots their gun by flicking the trigger? The other major problem I found was anyone could play for any team. As long as you had a players wrist band on to get into the gate (and even then you could just walk in) you could play for what ever team you wanted to. Isn't the chrono ref suppose to check NPPL I'ds? Not once did they check on field 2. What the hell do we pay for them for? Other than a few other things we think the event went good. Oh and we got 3rd so I am not complaining because we lost. We didn't even get a plenty the whole event. This is constructive cridisisim for the NPPL to help make it better.
Well said. Refs who don't know the rules are a problem, especially at the pinnacle of competitive paintball as the NPPL purports to be.

I believe the problem can be summed up like this: every other sports pays their referees, and you must work your way up through the minors before you get to the majors. In paintball, we charge our referees to attend a clinic, and (surprise) when no one or poor quality subjects show up, we must draw from inexperienced refs.

No excuse for 6 refs per field for an event like this. And yes, I have played PSP and NPPL, and yes, I run tournament series, so yes, I think I could and do do better. If the NPPL wants to get serious about its events getting better, they need to:

- start drawing refs from higher caliber affilated series and holding clinics where the refs are paid to be there to learn from the ultimate. Better make sure your ultimate judge is very very good first.
- establish minimums and stick to them for events. No less than 8 refs per 7 man field.
- get the best of the best from the whole crew for the pro and d1 games on the big fields
- don't play in the dark and don't screw your D2 and D3 teams with less than what they paid for or else they will stop showing.


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Last edited by Matt911 : 05-24-2011 at 06:39 PM. Reason: typos!
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Old 05-24-2011, 06:48 PM #41
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I didnt play on field 2 and I only watched a few games on that field...one of the games I did see however had terrible reffing, I watched someone sliding into snake overslide so much that he literally slid into the netting right in front of the ref and he didnt do anything.

thats pretty ridiculous if you ask me
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Old 05-24-2011, 08:13 PM #42
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reffing on field 1 was bad too, we dident get hurt by it but i watched other teams too
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