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Old 04-07-2011, 01:11 AM #1
Deimus85
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ROF cap and Bouncing therof

Just thought I would like to shed a light on this situation, please keep discussion pertinent and reasonable. Keep in mind I am in no way shape or form asking for a reversal, nor am I complaining.

On Friday our first game I was assessed a gun penalty for a "bouncing" gun. I served my penalty by sitting the next game, while my team had to play a man down. During that time, I raised the debounce of my marker a considerable amount, shot a half hopper of paint at the chrono, and deemed it to be fixed. I did not notice anything in the first place due to the new 15 bps ROF cap instituted this season. In any case, I made the appropriate adjustments due to the circumstances and went to play the third game.

At the chronograph before stepping onto the field, I asked the referee to not only check my velocity, but also to deem that my gun was not bouncing. He said it was fine, and I went to play. We won the game, I hung the flag, and another ref checked my marker. He handed it back to me without assessing a penalty. The fourth game, same thing, asked the ref at the chrono to check me, and played. We won, and a ref pulled my marker. He claimed it to be bouncing. He handed it to his colleague, who believed the marker to NOT be bouncing. Another ref handled my marker, who said he believed it to be bouncing.

To divert slightly, my marker was not going full auto, not ramping, and not double shooting. No slow trigger pull tests were placed on my marker, and the "bounce" appeared to be occurring around 13+ bps, where the marker would cap at 15 (the chrono said my marker was shooting between 13.95 and 14.4 bps).

At this point, the head ref asked for my ID card. The second penalty for a bouncing gun is the player has to sit the rest of the tournament, while his team has to play a man down for the following 6 games. Needless to say, this would be costing to any team, no matter if they were 8-0 in prelims or not. We appealed this decision, and Dan Perez was asked to come and check the marker. At this point, Rodney Squires brought up some interesting points that I wanted to share to the rest of the paintball community, especially those that frequent NPPL events. The end result was a reversal of the head ref's call, and I was allowed to play the rest of the tournament with my team, so I was happy with the outcome. That is not to say that something different from the sort occurred to another team, or has the potential to affect another team at a future event.

If a ROF cap was instituted to even the playing field and "eliminate" cheater guns, then why was the bounce rule not amended as well? We all know that any marker with an electronic board with micro switch activation will always "bounce." It is the nature of the construction of our equipment. A gun that is capped at 15 in "semi automatic" is not going to cause an unfair advantage, so long as it is not going full auto, shooting on its own, ramping, double-shooting, etc. There is no paintball marker that is "true semi-auto" other than the mechanical markers from yesteryear. Even in NPPL events of the past, with no ROF, I can tell you that my Egos (as well as everyone else's) were purposefully set up to "bounce" at high rates of fire, thus allowing slow shooters like myself to keep up with opponents shooting 15+bps. Now with the ROF capped at 15, guns set up like that are no longer an issue.

If the bouncing rule will not be amended to take this into consideration, then why should we trust the ref's discretion on whether a gun is bouncing or not. Especially in a case like mine, where 50% of the refs who touched my gun said it was bouncing, and 50% said it wasn't, where is the surety that we are making fair calls across teams and divisions?

Why is there no mechanical way of checking for added shots?

Why is it even an issue if there is one added shot, so long if the gun is in what appears to be "semi-auto" and not shooting over 15bps?

I am grateful for my call being reversed when the ultimate saw the logic in this, but I am hoping that this issue will have some light shed on it, so that other teams may not run into a similar issue in the future, as well as for the fairness of the game.

This is also a huge consideration and issue for teams like the one I played on, who do not have personal gun techs, a plethora of markers, or other resources to fall back on. My team had 8 players and 8 markers. We did not have the luxury, like other teams, for throwing a gun to a tech or in a gear bag and making sure the problem did not happen again. Where is the fairness into not taking the little guys into consideration here?
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Last edited by Deimus85 : 04-07-2011 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 04-07-2011, 03:03 AM #2
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same my team had the same problem
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Old 04-07-2011, 03:52 AM #3
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yeah with the 15bps cap, i dont think anyone cares about a gun that bounces every once in awhile, stupid rule ..
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:53 AM #4
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Glad you brought this up, it's absolutely true.

There's always the fear that your gun will not pass inspection during the pre-game chrono, simply due to the nature of the gun. Leaving the decision in the hands of the refs opens the potential of human error. Moreover, it's extremely hard to tell if a gun is "bouncing," especially when capped at 15bps (hence the conflicting opinions from the refs). A team's success should not be dependent on such an uncertain condition.

I think the rule should either be eliminated (guns that are capped and 15 and are apparently semi are acceptable), or the league needs to implement some mechanical device that checks each marker - giving players a little certainty that if their marker is considered "legal" at one point, it will remain that way for the remainder of the event without having to stress about it each game and risk getting a penalty.

- As you said.
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:24 AM #5
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if a gun is bouncing, than it is not a true semi-auto rate of fire. You are borderline ramping.It sucks that the ref at the chrono said it was good and you kept getting picked on the rest of the day but ,with boards out there ,whos to say that someone cant put a code in there gun and make it ramp or do some crazy stuff after you passed the chrono judge. Not saying that this is your case but im sure theres people out there with magic in there guns and definatley need to be caught.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:45 AM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zmatrix View Post
if a gun is bouncing, than it is not a true semi-auto rate of fire. You are borderline ramping.It sucks that the ref at the chrono said it was good and you kept getting picked on the rest of the day but ,with boards out there ,whos to say that someone cant put a code in there gun and make it ramp or do some crazy stuff after you passed the chrono judge. Not saying that this is your case but im sure theres people out there with magic in there guns and definatley need to be caught.
No matter what you do electronically to the board, you can still find someone to get a marker to "bounce." It is the nature of the mechanics of operation of our markers. Why do you think 8 different people fired my marker and all had varying opinions on whether it was legal or not?

If somebody with who has credibility in marker technical operations can clarify this, that would be enlightening.
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Old 04-07-2011, 12:27 PM #7
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If your going to have a cap why ***** about bouncing.. but it all boils down to... play PSP!
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Old 04-07-2011, 12:37 PM #8
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lets say the NPPL allows a little bounce, now what is a little bounce? that varies person to person.
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Old 04-07-2011, 01:06 PM #9
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who cares its capped at 15bps. U also have to think k say i got slow fingers so i set up my gun to work to my ablity now a ref grabs my gun and he has really fast fingers of course its going to bounce. Use semi or ramp or even throw them as long as its only at 15bps just my 2 cents.

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Old 04-07-2011, 03:47 PM #10
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Deimus85
There is no way around your present predicament except implementation of use of The Chip (as the Pros used in HB) across the board. It won't change anything except monitor for violations of the BPS cap--and keep the refs from screwing around with your gun on the assumption the chip is doing its job.
As currently written in the 2011 NPPL rules your marker was in violation of 7.01 & 7.02 any time it "bounced"--as was likely nearly every other gun in the event. You set your gun up to operate illegally--as likely did the majority of players competing.
The real crux of the problem however is the league continues to insist (for some hardcore group of the self-deluded) that actual semi-auto really exists in modern electropneumatic markers--and that extremes in BPS rates is both possible and potentially legal--because that's what the semi-auto as a skill nimrods want. (So the league sees a problem but is trying hard not to antagonise some portion of their player base with their solution.)
Your problem is further complicated because there are least two brands of markers that add shots whether you set the gun up to do it or not. And since rule 7.02 deals with the trigger and "triggering" of a shot it is an absurd rule on its face--given that the trigger doesn't actually actuate the firing sequence--and is in conflict with the BPS cap.
The rules are also mistaken when they use ROF interchangeably with BPS when referring to the cap because they are two different things. ROF is not applicable to semi-auto or even sorta semi-auto function because ROF is measuring the time between shots whereas a BPS cap simply inhibits any firing of shots in excess of the programmed limit.

Bottom line--the rules fail to clearly address either the functional nature of the guns in use or offer practical ways to regulate their use in the competition environment and you, along with everybody else, is left to the whims of the officials.
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Old 04-07-2011, 05:01 PM #11
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i think if they are going to enforce the bps cap which i personally have no problem with....

they should rid of the bouncing trigger rule or modify it. i say this only because i know for my gun at HB i had to turn the activation point really far in and turn my debounce up to 7.5 to get rid of my bouncing trigger(which i mind u was more like a random trigger bounce id get once every 50 shots or 100 shots. this made my trigger pull seem much longer and slower than any gun ive ever shot.

so if i can keep my trigger and settings to how i like that "sweet spot" to be and put my gun capped semi auto at 13bps(meaning that "bounce" would only kick my gun up to about 13.5 or 14 at the most) then id be very very happy.
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:31 PM #12
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Quote:
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Your problem is further complicated because there are least two brands of markers that add shots whether you set the gun up to do it or not. .
I was shooting a Bob Long Closer, which apparently according to numerous sources at the event, is a brand of marker that is looked at a lot heavily for "bounce" by officials.

I guess everyone should shoot Egos then....
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Old 04-08-2011, 12:36 AM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraser314 View Post
I think the rule should either be eliminated (guns that are capped and 15 and are apparently semi are acceptable), or the league needs to implement some mechanical device that checks each marker - giving players a little certainty that if their marker is considered "legal" at one point, it will remain that way for the remainder of the event without having to stress about it each game and risk getting a penalty.

- As you said.
Agreed!

My biggest worry is playing and than having a ref say that my gun is bouncing, i worry about it every event just because there is no mechanical way to say whether or not my gun is and its left up to personal judgement by the ref.
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