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View Poll Results: Is Ramping a handicap??
yes i can one ball kids 18 72.00%
no some people need it 7 28.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-03-2011, 07:52 PM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waxedpaint View Post
Ramping does not belong in the sport at all if you ask me. It is a handicap for people who are incapable of shooting consistently. It's all a dog and pony show for companies anyway, who's gun can shoot faster and who's gun can blah blah blah. Semi Auto Mechanical System X Auto Cocker is what I have and I love it. I will also very soon have a G3R. In my opinion, if you can't shoot semi, then you don't belong playing the game. With ramp, there is no talent anymore, people are all leveled and massive amounts of paint are shot in order to get people out, no strategy, no balls, no fun. Just my opinion.
I can shoot faster with semi than I can with ramp. Much faster. Playing on ramp doesn't take away any strategy or talent. You have to use better strategy because everyone can shoot just as fast (which is actually slower than if you were playing a semi tournament) as you, so you can't rely on having heavier lanes. This is pretty evident if you have compared a PSP event to an NPPL event.
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Old 04-03-2011, 09:01 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost93 View Post
But most places the cap isn't the same, so it actually does help.
In those cases it has more to do with the cap. You're still assuming that all ramping is at current PSP rate, and all semi is at uncapped well tuned electro rates. When talking about one firing mode vs. another (say semi vs. ramp vs. full auto) you have to keep all other variables (such as ROF cap) the same. Otherwise you get players setting their gun to unlimited ramp who then claim they're trying to make the game more "faced paced". Heck, I've ran into players who set their gun on uncapped ramping who actually believed it was the same as semi auto.

Quote:
No one said it was, but decreasing the importance of one minor skill (finger speed) does make you focus more on being aggressive and communicating because you can't just roll your gun faster than them to keep them in.
I'd claim that having more varied rof abilities on the field would force those with slower trigger skills to have to increase their other skills even more to compensate, and creates a more interesting and dynamic game. But still extremely off topic here. Though I do wonder why the pro-ramping crowd isn't more in favor of full auto? (lets assume the old NXL safety full auto of course) If the entire point is that making it easier to hold a continuous stream of paint is supposed to be such a good thing, then why even bother with having to move your fingers at all? Heck, doing that would allow the guns to have a single trigger, thus allowing the player to get an even more firm grip on the gun giving them a more accurate shooting platform.

Quote:
That can be applied to more than just those tournament formats. The fact that the league with ramping is faster paced with bigger plays actually shows you that ramping does change the game quite a bit, even outside of tournaments.
Oh it certainly does apply to more than the two tournament formats. Though you're mixing variables again, you'd have to compare two leagues with the same scoring, bunkers, layout, and ROF cap with the only difference being the firing mode to definitively say it was the mode that causes the change in pacing.

The issue here is it's use outside of those formats, where in a mixed skill and equipment game (such as most open play games) it will considerably slow the game. You've already stated that it's easier to keep someone in their bunker at 12.5 than it is at 4. A properly balanced game will have a couple fast fingered players on each team with the rest of the players shooting slower. The faster players can't keep everyone pinned, so the game still moves forward at a nice pace. You add ramping to the mix and many of those slow fingered players will now become fast shooting ones, keeping more players pinned and slowing down the game overall. It's not like there's an over abundance of coordinated plays going on since most players will have never even met before the day.

Though an interesting side note, I've found that allowing enhanced ROF modes has a less noticeable effect on large size woodsball games. You can't always pin someone into their cover on those fields, and the high ROF tends to make the player more noisy and easier to find through the brush. Someone lays into your cover with a non-stop stream you just fall back and circle around them. One local field has taken to allowing ramping and full auto up to 12-13 bps for their monthly scenario game with no adverse effects, but they are specifically advertised as the "more intense" games. They were also started with the intention of pulling players who preferred a high ROF game away from the normal day to day games, so again not a properly scientific comparison.

Quote:
How does that apply to his argument at all? It's no better than the personal attack at the end of his post.
The intent was to be exactly like the personal attack at the end of his post. When trying to fix hypocrisy you sometimes have to hold up a mirror to demonstrate the wrongness.

Quote:
Also, just because someone plays competitively doesn't mean they don't play for fun from time to time. I know that I do on a regular basis. In fact, just today I hopped in on a game for fun while I took a break from reffing. I used my own gun, but only because I was making sure it was shooting the way I wanted it to after I adjusted the dwell.
The way the game should be is that ALL players play for fun by default, with some players playing for competition from time to time. Heck, when I did play competitively I really just considered it rec play where someone bothered to keep score. One of the reasons I don't bother anymore was the "I play tournaments, thus I'm better than all rec players" attitude. Since I considered myself a rec player it was extremely annoying to hear it coming from players my team routinely beat.
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Old 04-03-2011, 09:21 PM #24
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Sometimes, ramping is just fun. Once every so often my friends and I will tune our markers to the limit of their capabilities, and shoot the **** out of eachother for a few games. All in good spirits.

In the recball scene, ramping has absolutely no place. Much too hard to hold those with poor trigger control, because he might have only pulled the trigger 3 times out of excitement but hit the other guy 9-10 times.

To be honest, ramping in the tourney scene is quite a joke also. Sorry folks, but everyone in the paintball world can twitch their fingers with enough force to knock the dust off of a feather five times in a second. Just give them full auto and be done with it already.
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Old 04-03-2011, 10:05 PM #25
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I can see your point on that, depending on the cap it makes things more fair. It does level the playing field, however, who likes a level playing field? When playing a sport (any sport) you need to compensate for what you lack, it's what makes a team a team. Again, personal opinion.
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Old 04-03-2011, 10:16 PM #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost93 View Post
How does that apply to his argument at all? It's no better than the personal attack at the end of his post.

Also, just because someone plays competitively doesn't mean they don't play for fun from time to time. I know that I do on a regular basis. In fact, just today I hopped in on a game for fun while I took a break from reffing. I used my own gun, but only because I was making sure it was shooting the way I wanted it to after I adjusted the dwell.
Thanks, what you said was pretty much how I would have responded and you seem to consider the same factors I do.

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Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
In those cases it has more to do with the cap. You're still assuming that all ramping is at current PSP rate, and all semi is at uncapped well tuned electro rates. When talking about one firing mode vs. another (say semi vs. ramp vs. full auto) you have to keep all other variables (such as ROF cap) the same. Otherwise you get players setting their gun to unlimited ramp who then claim they're trying to make the game more "faced paced". Heck, I've ran into players who set their gun on uncapped ramping who actually believed it was the same as semi auto.

I'd claim that having more varied rof abilities on the field would force those with slower trigger skills to have to increase their other skills even more to compensate, and creates a more interesting and dynamic game. But still extremely off topic here. Though I do wonder why the pro-ramping crowd isn't more in favor of full auto? (lets assume the old NXL safety full auto of course) If the entire point is that making it easier to hold a continuous stream of paint is supposed to be such a good thing, then why even bother with having to move your fingers at all? Heck, doing that would allow the guns to have a single trigger, thus allowing the player to get an even more firm grip on the gun giving them a more accurate shooting platform.

Oh it certainly does apply to more than the two tournament formats. Though you're mixing variables again, you'd have to compare two leagues with the same scoring, bunkers, layout, and ROF cap with the only difference being the firing mode to definitively say it was the mode that causes the change in pacing.

The way the game should be is that ALL players play for fun by default, with some players playing for competition from time to time. Heck, when I did play competitively I really just considered it rec play where someone bothered to keep score. One of the reasons I don't bother anymore was the "I play tournaments, thus I'm better than all rec players" attitude. Since I considered myself a rec player it was extremely annoying to hear it coming from players my team routinely beat.
Yeah I meant 12bps psp ramping vs uncapped semi as those are the current standards. I understand I'm in the rec forum but tourney play is still relevant as the ramping vs semi argument is still discussed by the sports whole player base.

Everyone agrees fast ramping shouldn't be allowed on recball fields. IMO 12bps isn't very fast. It is almost the same as the kid using a full auto or burst shot mode spyder.

I don't like nxl ramping as much as psp. I like pulling the trigger more than 3 times haha. I also like the control I have with ramping. With the right timing I can choose shoot 1 ball, 3 balls, or 12.

I didn't take into account the variables in score, game time, etc. I used standard format instead of substituting another mode of fire into a different format. I'd rather use a proven style of play generally over speculation and educated guesses.

Idk where you play but at the fields I practiced at both here and in Florida before I went to college tourney players generally stuck with other tourney players and left rec ballers alone. No one thought it'd be really fun to crush recballers and rental players. There's no challenge or experience to get better in playing recball.

If tourney players look down upon and give **** to anyone it's not the recballers, it's the 15 year old jackass with the dm11 and brand new gear who **** talks and only plays recball against renters and brags about his k/d to us.

If we played recball it was generally for purely fun and dicking around. After practice today we played 15v15 recball. the team vs all recballers, except everyone on the team was playing musket ball and couldn't use hoppers.
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Old 04-03-2011, 10:29 PM #27
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Ok ppl chill. Ramping should not be allowed in a recreational setting, granted, at least not unless everyone who is playing agrees that it is ok. This is a given, I don't think anyone here will argue to the contrary.

However, for you people who say "ramping has no place in the sport at all" you are quite frankly gravely mistaken. The reason that you think that is because you play rec ball (im not saying thats a bad thing, that is merely an observation, i for one greatly enjoy recball). What Irish was getting at (albeit in a pretty crude manner) was that you really can't say that it has no place in the sport at all until you have played and mastered every aspect of the game, ie. tourney, scenario, woodsball, and recball.

Ramping makes tournament style play SO much more fun and competitive. Ramping capped at ~12bps is awesome, it allows you to lay down lanes and still focus on snapping, running/gunning, being aware of your surroundings, and everything else going through your head. Until you have played in tournaments and have a good feel for that style of play then you can't say that ramping has no place in it.

Ramping is not "wasteful" in tourney style paintball, the fact is that in that kind of play you are only shooting directly at an opposing player maybe half the time (depending on your position), the rest of your shots are used to lane or win and keep dominance (keeping the other guys head down so you can move). When everyone is allowed to shoot at a decent and equal pace, it really brings the focus to your tactics and how well you can play the game.

So there is no need to call anyone a scrub because they don't play tournaments, and there is also no need to be all high and mighty and say, "because i don't like ramping in the paintball i play, it must be useless in every and all situations." Just like it would be very rude for me to tell a mil-sim player that having a gun that looks like an M-16 and has a stock is stupid. It isn't, I personally do not prefer it and would never use one in a game, but that is the way he plays paintball.
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Old 04-03-2011, 10:45 PM #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish916 View Post
I don't like nxl ramping as much as psp. I like pulling the trigger more than 3 times haha. I also like the control I have with ramping. With the right timing I can choose shoot 1 ball, 3 balls, or 12.
You actually get more control with full auto since it stops when you let go of the trigger, it doesn't have to finish the burst like current 3 shot ramping modes do. I have a few mechanical full autos and I've been able to shoot 1, 2, 3, or however many shots I wanted to shoot just by being quick with letting go of the trigger.

Quote:
I didn't take into account the variables in score, game time, etc. I used standard format instead of substituting another mode of fire into a different format. I'd rather use a proven style of play generally over speculation and educated guesses.
That's a comparison of game format, NOT a comparison of firing mode. It's like me saying automatic transmissions are faster than manual transmissions since my V6 powered automatic Impala is faster than my old 4 cylinder manual Escort.

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Idk where you play but at the fields I practiced at both here and in Florida before I went to college tourney players generally stuck with other tourney players and left rec ballers alone. No one thought it'd be really fun to crush recballers and rental players. There's no challenge or experience to get better in playing recball.
There's the attitude right there. The assumption that since a player is playing rec ball he's automatically inferior. You do realize that there are recreational players who are more skilled than you?

The worst part is that it can turn in to a self fulfilling concept. Player starts playing paintball and starts to get good at it. Other players tell him to try tournaments. The "tournament attitude" convinces him that he can't play in his old games anymore and to stick with just tournament play. He starts referring to all games he plays as "practices". Later he decides he's tired of tournaments, but since he can't go back to normal recreational games he quits altogether. End result is that most players with decent skill who prefer to play recreationally get removed from the normal playing population completely.

Quote:
If we played recball it was generally for purely fun and dicking around. After practice today we played 15v15 recball. the team vs all recballers, except everyone on the team was playing musket ball and couldn't use hoppers.

You really can't see how horrifically disrespectful you were being in that game, can you? You weren't treating them as equals, as fellow paintballers. You just used them as one big ego stroke. If you win they're proven to be absolutely inferior, and they have no right to be playing at all, while you get to brag about the amazing handicap you played through. If they win it has no meaning to them, since you had a huge handicap, while you get to laugh it off.
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Old 04-03-2011, 11:27 PM #29
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just because the others play paintball doesnt mean theyll equal. Also just because they played with a handicap doesnt mean they did it to boost their ego. Maybe they did what you tell everyone to do and have fun.

I dont see why ramping shouldn't be aloud in rec play. Uncapped ramping yes but capped ramp is fine ( around 10-12 bps is what im thinking ) having capped ramp in tourneys however does level the field because it doesnt give a advantage to those with faster fingers and I promotes gun skills and communication, etc.
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If I didn't have ramping Id only be able to shoot 2 balls a minute.. I have very retarded hands..

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Old 04-03-2011, 11:34 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manwee View Post
just because the others play paintball doesnt mean theyll equal.
Actually recreational players and renters are MORE IMPORTANT than tournament players, but that's another discussion.

Quote:
Also just because they played with a handicap doesnt mean they did it to boost their ego. Maybe they did what you tell everyone to do and have fun.
Might be fun for them, but there was a good chance it was NOT fun for the other team. I want everyone to have fun, but NEVER at someone else's expense.
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Old 04-03-2011, 11:39 PM #31
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i dont see how playing a game against people who pretty much arnt shooting at you isnt fun.
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Posted by tHe tw3rkeR:
If I didn't have ramping Id only be able to shoot 2 balls a minute.. I have very retarded hands..

"Are they my balls all over your face?"
Karma Police 12 - "OMG IT has the worlds first ever SLPR (super-low pressure lpr) cause its gonna run at negative psi. worlds first ever anti-matter marker."
SquareDorito,"I shoot and it's going right at them, then the wind comes in and is like LOL JK!!"
".......then I busted to the spike and shot like 85 guys...did a run through...wiped five hits...bonus balled six kids in the dead box...and punched a little kid in the face......."
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Old 04-03-2011, 11:47 PM #32
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Old 04-04-2011, 01:10 AM #33
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Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
You actually get more control with full auto since it stops when you let go of the trigger, it doesn't have to finish the burst like current 3 shot ramping modes do. I have a few mechanical full autos and I've been able to shoot 1, 2, 3, or however many shots I wanted to shoot just by being quick with letting go of the trigger.



That's a comparison of game format, NOT a comparison of firing mode. It's like me saying automatic transmissions are faster than manual transmissions since my V6 powered automatic Impala is faster than my old 4 cylinder manual Escort.



There's the attitude right there. The assumption that since a player is playing rec ball he's automatically inferior. You do realize that there are recreational players who are more skilled than you?

The worst part is that it can turn in to a self fulfilling concept. Player starts playing paintball and starts to get good at it. Other players tell him to try tournaments. The "tournament attitude" convinces him that he can't play in his old games anymore and to stick with just tournament play. He starts referring to all games he plays as "practices". Later he decides he's tired of tournaments, but since he can't go back to normal recreational games he quits altogether. End result is that most players with decent skill who prefer to play recreationally get removed from the normal playing population completely.




You really can't see how horrifically disrespectful you were being in that game, can you? You weren't treating them as equals, as fellow paintballers. You just used them as one big ego stroke. If you win they're proven to be absolutely inferior, and they have no right to be playing at all, while you get to brag about the amazing handicap you played through. If they win it has no meaning to them, since you had a huge handicap, while you get to laugh it off.
That's where timing comes in I guess but I'm not going to get into nxl vs psp ramping.

Format plays a big part so it's going to be included but I focused on modes of fire. Like said, I'd rather use concrete support than educated guesses. Something like "You have to be a well rounded player to be good at xball, in 7man you can afford to be a one trick pony" would be discussing format mainly.

It's not that I think recballers are inferior to me I just have no reason to play them and it's easier to relate to tourney players as they're in the same boat working towards the same goals. I have no problem talking to recballers but
I don't go out of my way to do so...

Anything is possible. There could be recballers more skilled than me but I can earnestly say it's unlikely. It's the idea that in any competitive activity there won't ever be a situation to arise where you need to adjust and play smarter/better/improve because you aren't playing at a high enough level where opponents can limit your options to 1) get better and adjust till you win or 2) lose. It's a completely different argument though.

I still play recball on occasion with friends who don't play paintball but want to give it a try or play every few months and things like that. I refer to practice as practice because I didn't drive to a certain field to play scenario game variations purely for fun. I came to get better at paintball and I find that fun.

There's nothing wrong with recball and playing purely for fun or the experience. Practice is practice and recball is recball. I rarely play recball because I don't want to spend $75+ to play. I've seen plenty of tourney players who quit a few years ago, miss paintball but are done with the time and commitment so they play pump every other weekend off a bag of paint.

I didn't play recballers with a handicap so I could boost my ego. Just because they lose doesn't mean they have to pack their **** up and never come back. I could care less about bragging that I beat recballers with a huge handicap. I did it because me and 14 other people thought it'd be a fun challenge and recballers would rather have it that way than us using hoppers and being capable of higher rates of fire. If they win, props to them. They didn't win just because they had hoppers, they had to be doing something right as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manwee View Post
i dont see how playing a game against people who pretty much arnt shooting at you isnt fun.
This. I have a huge handicap but it evens the odds. I have to play significantly better than usual due to it and they have a considerably easier time making bumps and pinning me down.
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Old 04-04-2011, 03:38 AM #34
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I think its not about making them feel bad but letting them have fun which they wouldnt have if the other team all had their electros going.
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Posted by tHe tw3rkeR:
If I didn't have ramping Id only be able to shoot 2 balls a minute.. I have very retarded hands..

"Are they my balls all over your face?"
Karma Police 12 - "OMG IT has the worlds first ever SLPR (super-low pressure lpr) cause its gonna run at negative psi. worlds first ever anti-matter marker."
SquareDorito,"I shoot and it's going right at them, then the wind comes in and is like LOL JK!!"
".......then I busted to the spike and shot like 85 guys...did a run through...wiped five hits...bonus balled six kids in the dead box...and punched a little kid in the face......."
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Old 04-04-2011, 06:58 AM #35
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Sorry, ramping is for scrubs and sanctioned tournaments. Real paintball, the bread and butter stuff that the average joe enjoys, is strictly low rate of fire awesomeness.

1) The argument that it slows down fast semi-auto shooters is BS. The point of ramping is that you keep a consistent ROF all day long. Semi-auto shooters might have a BURST of > 12 bps, but they can't keep that up for 5 minutes straight.

2) If you're playing a bunch of rentals and think you're BA because you owned them with your ramping marker...than you're a huge scrub and douche. I saw it yesterday and it made my blood boil. If you feel the need to yell out "OWNED!" after shooting 3 rental players in the back 4x each...then you need to get a life. I saw some 13 year old turd do it the other day. He was very psyched that he won, but he was shooting hot and ramping like a dick. Do it to a tournament team and I'll yell it with you.

3) Evening the playing field makes the game more fun. If everybody has a rental, I'll put my pump up and get a rental too.

4) Most of the time when I see a kid with a ramping gun on the rec paintball field, it's because they're weak. They want to make sure they can smother you in paintballs because that's all they can do. It's disgusting.

Bottom line: walk-ons aren't there to boost your self esteem. If you can't have fun with them, don't play. If you're there to purely beat up on them, don't play. If you want to ramp, go play with people who can ramp back at you.

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Old 04-04-2011, 10:17 AM #36
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Ramping = fun, once you have played more than twice, stop playing with renters and birthday parties.
wtf are you talking about lmao kid ramping is for bks who can shoot 20 a sec it needs to go to the old ways and get out of this bad habbit.....
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Old 04-04-2011, 10:34 AM #37
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Some good points in here. Some, not so good.

Here's my take: Ramping in recreational play is MOST DEFINITELY a handicap; a crutch, if you will, to account for a lack of skill. And it's not so much about the difference between ramp and fast semi via. walking the trigger. Pretty much anybody can coax a decent rate of fire out of any modern electro these days. It's the purpose of ramping in a rec setting that I take issue with: to provide a non-stop WALL of paint. These kinds of player know nothing about field awareness, or how to make devastating, non-shooting but aggressive moves. Their only play is to put out so much paint that anyone who is (likely) unskilled/unseasoned will cower behind their bunkers until the paint stream comes around for the elimination. Can you tell I don't have much respect for these types of players?

The players that use ramp in recreational settings are interested in one thing - pure submission by firepower. Never once have I seen a rec player use ramp in a controlled way, putting a short burst here, a 15 round lane there, and one-balling when they get the chance. Nope - it's a constant stream out of their guns until the game is over. And who are they playing against? People with Tippmann 98's, Phiranas, mechanical Spyders. Hell, most of the times I've seen it, they were playing on uncapped ramp as well.

There was a douchebag at the local rec field last year who had an Ion set to full-auto all day; sounded uncapped, but I don't know for sure. Anyway, this dick was bunkering noobs all day, giving them not 1,2, even 3 shots, but 6-8 as the norm. This "field" has no rules other than chrono under 300fps, and keep your mask on. (that's another issue, for another thread.)

So after that, I made it a point to take him out early every game, and with a liberal amount of paint, on semi, of course. It may not have been my best course of action, but at least I kept him from driving so many people out of the sport...


I realize what ramping is for: Tourneys. Because they got tired of people illegally ramping or using modes, bounce, etc. So they just got everyone to agree on a rof and made ramping "legal." Don't kid yourself into thinking it was intended to 'level the playing field.' That was merely a byproduct.
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:16 PM #38
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wtf are you talking about lmao kid ramping is for bks who can shoot 20 a sec it needs to go to the old ways and get out of this bad habbit.....
Just no. Chill out.


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Real paintball, the bread and butter stuff that the average joe enjoys, is strictly low rate of fire awesomeness.
And what pray tell makes low RoF paintball "real" paintball? How is it any more legitimate than tournament style play? Sure more people play it...but paintball is paintball. There is no "real" paintball and there is no "fake" paintball. As long as your are out there shooting paint at the baddies then you are playing paintball. Just because you personally don't enjoy a certain flavor of paintball doesn't mean it isn't good.


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3) Evening the playing field makes the game more fun. If everybody has a rental, I'll put my pump up and get a rental too.
And that is precisely what ramping does. The difference is that it levels the playing field up as opposed to down. Some tournament it would be if everyone were using rentals. I'm sure PSP and NPPL would be really fun to watch then. At a rec field the playing field should be lowered down to new players can enjoy themselves. At competitive tournaments it is leveled to a high end standard.

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Bottom line: walk-ons aren't there to boost your self esteem. If you can't have fun with them, don't play. If you're there to purely beat up on them, don't play. If you want to ramp, go play with people who can ramp back at you.
No kidding, I haven't seen a single person in this thread who said otherwise. No one said that we want to ramp against rentals. But people need to stop with the blanket statements saying ramping is always bad, if you ramp then you are a douche. Thats wrong, ramping makes tournaments more fun and competitive, but it sucks if you are playing rentals/people who don't ramp.
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:36 PM #39
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If you ramp in recreational play, you are wrong. You are ruining the game for the newer players. The only time its use should be allowed is in competitive play. I'm happy that the fields that I play at share this common sense viewpoint and enforce it on recreation days.

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lol at ramping is for people with slow fingers. I can shoot ~15bps on semi and I don't move my fingers any slower than normal when using ramping.
In other words, you are doing it wrong. Don't you need to maintain just five or six bps to maintain the ramping?
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Old 04-04-2011, 01:00 PM #40
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the ? is it a handicap not is it fair??
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Old 04-04-2011, 01:03 PM #41
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Ramping does not belong in the sport at all if you ask me. It is a handicap for people who are incapable of shooting consistently. It's all a dog and pony show for companies anyway, who's gun can shoot faster and who's gun can blah blah blah. Semi Auto Mechanical System X Auto Cocker is what I have and I love it. I will also very soon have a G3R. In my opinion, if you can't shoot semi, then you don't belong playing the game. With ramp, there is no talent anymore, people are all leveled and massive amounts of paint are shot in order to get people out, no strategy, no balls, no fun. Just my opinion.
so trueee
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Old 04-04-2011, 02:53 PM #42
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so trueee
Beyond wrong. That just simply is not the case.
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