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Old 03-18-2011, 11:49 AM #22
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Originally Posted by KMAYER1221 View Post
I shot NPPL DC last year and there was a guy on the sideline taking pics with an Iphone. Not even kidding. I took a picture but I don't know where it went.

So I guess at least this will thin out the illegitimate media personell.
This.

As a ref, I'm all for them making sure the valid photographers are on the sidelines, I don't feel like flipping over some kid using his Canon point and shoot with a Zip Lock bag as his shroud again.
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Old 03-18-2011, 11:55 AM #23
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I realy don't think it is about the camera, it is about the photographers experience on the sidelines of a professional event. It isalmost as bad as taking a kid who reffed a few locals and threw him/her out there to ref a pro game. Not good for anyone involved.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:03 PM #24
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Im not trying to start a fight here, I like some of the points you have.
But you are not being very fair at the same time, I for one spend lots of money on my gear and spend lots of time taking photos for teams who don't have "MEDIA" photographers taking pictures of an event they don't think is important. What about people like me who just take photos because we love the art, I don't sell my photos and I never plan on doing so. If you cant afford your hobby get a new hobby. And your comment about the Smugmug and flicker, I have a smugmug so do a vast range of photographers. I dont think a Joomla site or wordpress theme make you any better because you replace logos with your own.

Like I said not trying fight here just telling you how i see it from my point of view. Just like the game, do a rank system, Pro gets you field, simi pro gets you field access twice.....etc.

-Leo
Leo, I agree with you and I agree with Michael. This is my third season shooting for major paintball media outlets. Although Mike has a large number of years on me, I have worked hard to make my way up the ranks. I have been fortunate enough to have had a "pro" media pass and access to all fields at every national event I have attended.

There needs to be a good balance of "pro" and "amateur" media, for the exact reasons that you have stated. If it's limited to all "pro" media shooting for magazines (of which there are only online one's standing other than APG), than the lower division players get limited to no photo love.

I also agree with Michael that having a camera and a website in NO-WAY qualifies you for a media pass. There is a place to learn and practice and it's not when people are investing thousands of dollars to play an event, just to have you interfere, because you don't know how to limit your telegraphing of player locations or because you yell every time you get shot. I won't even get into sideline courtesey (to refs and other photogs), that most people don't understand at all.

I think that more importantly, the NPPL and other national leagues need to get together with some of the more professional photographers on the sidelines and get our input on building an official photographer sideline rulebook. If you break the rules, depending on the infraction, you get a hole punched in your card by the head ref (for something minor), three minor infractions you lose your card. If you violate a major rule, you lose your card. And for god's sake NPPL, CHECK FOR CARDS! Please!

Bottom line is that changes are needed and I truly feel that these changes are a great start! They have been needed as long as I've been shooting. If you don't get approved for a pass, don't take it personally. Shoot your local regional events, talk to NPPL and ask what you need to do to get approved next time. Talk to the photographer's that are approved to shoot and ask them where you can improve to get the from the league.

I have submitted my application and hope that I am approved. I look forward to seeing you all at HB.

Robbo
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:09 PM #25
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I guess either way it comes down to the NPPL, It also comes down to respect on the field. I know if i see 15 photographers on the filed i am not going in to add to the anarchy. If im on the filed and Gary is on the field im staying out of his way while i do my thing also. Im just saying we should have more media, photographers, journalists..etc promoting the sport. But i also agree with you that it should be limited. Like a photographer with a Canon 7D should not be passed up for a media pass while some kid with a iPhone or Nikon CoolPix gets to take the field.

-Leo

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwlostjedi View Post
Leo I understand where you are coming from 100%. I was where you are in 2004 just wanting to shoot the sport I love and take photos of my friends. Back then there was no way in the world I would or could get a "media pass" to an NPPL event, so I started chrono300. I worked my way up shooting hundreds of local events and practices before I was approved for my first pass. In fact it was guys like Gary Baum and myself that made it easier for Internet based media outlets to get on the paintball fields with the NPPL.

I was not bashing smugmug (look at www.chrono300/smugmug.com ) or Flickr (user name MichaelWise2) I am saying that that does not make you a media person. I am a professional painball photographer not a hobiest as you stated you and many others are. Hobiest is a person shooting casually, do you think the NFL should or would allow a hobiest a media pass because the photographer love the sport of paintball?

I am not bashing or trying to be mean, not everyone should be allowed passes. If you are serious work your way up or join a larger media outlet that is proven and earn your way on to an NPPL field. D4 is not local tournament Serries under the NPPL banner, it should be treated no different than a pro game. Try and shoot a NASCAR event on Friday and shoot the rookies driving the pick-up trucks they won't change the rules for anyone just because it is a lower division.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:16 PM #26
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This post is not directed to anyone specifically.

What I also think leagues need to not do is limit pro field access based on affiliation. I mean it's crazy that someone like me who has shot NFL Football, MLB Baseball, Div 1 NCAA Football, and more cannot get pro field access at events but XYZ GWC who has shot two local tournaments and is shooting for some magazine for nothing can. This is why I have not shot a single event since 2009. Now I don't know about NPPL but PSP only allows photographers working for magazines and Major paintball websites have access to the pro fields. However most of these companies these days are taking advantage of photographers by not paying them anything causing the actual "Professional Photographers" to not shoot for these companies and magazines. Since the actual "Professional Photographers" wont shoot for them all the Amature under experienced GWC's jump all over the opportunity to be able to shoot the ""PRO Games"". The sidelines are then filled with under experienced photographers shooting for free instead of actual Professional Photographers. So in my opinion leagues should start judging who gets on the pro field based off of experience rather then affiliation. This would also be very beneficial to photographers because then all these new to photography do it for free guys wont be able to have access to the pro fields making it where companies and magazines will actually have to pay us professional photographers if they want images for their magazines/websites/etc...

TL;DR
I think leagues should base pro access off of experience rather than affiliation. Just because XYZ GWC is shooting for XYZ magazine for nothing doesn't mean he should be out there.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:22 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercui2y View Post
I guess either way it comes down to the NPPL, It also comes down to respect on the field.
I agree 100%!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercui2y View Post
If im on the filed and Gary is on the field im staying out of his way while i do my thing also.
I'm not, I'll knock Gary down, steal his 1D4 and 300 2.8L IS and then send my photo to FF since he missed the shot! :yourmyboygary:
It's not a matter of respecting someone because they've been there longer, it's just about being respectful all around, to the players first and foremost, then the refs, then the media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercui2y View Post
Im just saying we should have more media, photographers, journalists..etc promoting the sport. But i also agree with you that it should be limited. Like a photographer with a Canon 7D should not be passed up for a media pass while some kid with a iPhone or Nikon CoolPix gets to take the field.

-Leo
Let's not start that conversation. I can kill it with my Droid X and the Vingette app. I even have a Mike Wise, Gary B, and Jeff Stince setting! But seriously, I don't care if you have a point and shoot if you're approved to be out there, than you're approved to be out there. It's NPPL's playground, they decide if we play or not.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:27 PM #28
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LOL, I agree 100%

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Originally Posted by RenegadeLegion4 View Post
I agree 100%!


I'm not, I'll knock Gary down, steal his 1D4 and 300 2.8L IS and then send my photo to FF since he missed the shot! :yourmyboygary:
It's not a matter of respecting someone because they've been there longer, it's just about being respectful all around, to the players first and foremost, then the refs, then the media.


Let's not start that conversation. I can kill it with my Droid X and the Vingette app. I even have a Mike Wise, Gary B, and Jeff Stince setting! But seriously, I don't care if you have a point and shoot if you're approved to be out there, than you're approved to be out there. It's NPPL's playground, they decide if we play or not.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:31 PM #29
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Leo I shot the first two years with a point and shoot camera while working for paintball sports. I just do not agree with the more is better idea. True media is true media, a person running a business is a business and a hobiest is a hobiest.

Leo it is not a personal attack on you at all man, I wish you the beat of luck. I am just stating something that I hope reaches the right persons ear because there needs to be a change.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:33 PM #30
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None taken

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Leo I shot the first two years with a point and shoot camera while working for paintball sports. I just do not agree with the more is better idea. True media is true media, a person running a business is a business and a hobiest is a hobiest.

Leo it is not a personal attack on you at all man, I wish you the beat of luck. I am just stating something that I hope reaches the right persons ear because there needs to be a change.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:40 PM #31
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Are there really any paintball magazines anymore seriously? APG is not a magazine or should I say a current magazine. I see Faceful photographer thrown around but I have not seen a magazine in months. The future of media is the web and I understand that.
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:12 PM #32
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Are there really any paintball magazines anymore seriously? APG is not a magazine or should I say a current magazine. I see Faceful photographer thrown around but I have not seen a magazine in months. The future of media is the web and I understand that.
APG is the only print magazine in the US (as far as I can see).
FaceFull had a hiatus and will be back (but a little different) this year.

Everything else in the US... online only.

Good times.
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:20 PM #33
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This post is not directed to anyone specifically.

What I also think leagues need to not do is limit pro field access based on affiliation. I mean it's crazy that someone like me who has shot NFL Football, MLB Baseball, Div 1 NCAA Football, and more cannot get pro field access at events but XYZ GWC who has shot two local tournaments and is shooting for some magazine for nothing can. This is why I have not shot a single event since 2009. Now I don't know about NPPL but PSP only allows photographers working for magazines and Major paintball websites have access to the pro fields. However most of these companies these days are taking advantage of photographers by not paying them anything causing the actual "Professional Photographers" to not shoot for these companies and magazines. Since the actual "Professional Photographers" wont shoot for them all the Amature under experienced GWC's jump all over the opportunity to be able to shoot the ""PRO Games"". The sidelines are then filled with under experienced photographers shooting for free instead of actual Professional Photographers. So in my opinion leagues should start judging who gets on the pro field based off of experience rather then affiliation. This would also be very beneficial to photographers because then all these new to photography do it for free guys wont be able to have access to the pro fields making it where companies and magazines will actually have to pay us professional photographers if they want images for their magazines/websites/etc...

TL;DR
I think leagues should base pro access off of experience rather than affiliation. Just because XYZ GWC is shooting for XYZ magazine for nothing doesn't mean he should be out there.
I agree and disagree Luke. It's all about affiliation when it comes to league approval. All of the leagues you have shot, don't go out and check portfolio's for the thumb's up on their media. They assume that the media source that you're affiliated with: Magazine ABC, Newspaper ABC, or Newswire ABC, has done their job and based their decision to employ you as the "portfolio" check. The same is being done by the NPPL (I'm hoping) this season. If you have shot for numerous magazines, news sites, or a certain number of national events (since publications are so limited now a days) that you have the required skillset to shoot their event. More importantly that your photos will have an avenue to reach the masses. You can take the best damn photos on earth, but if more people see my photos on ProPaintball.com, it's better exposure for the league.
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:32 PM #34
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Robbo you work for the only real source of paintball news out there with Propaintball all the other news sites are months behind. To bad there are company's out there calling themselves "on-line magazine" when they have robbed photographers by not paying them after promising.

The old timers of paintball photography are all gone less Gary who started a year before me. I am filled with passion about this because this is the new nppl and this is a chance to fix the problem and take photographers seriously.
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:39 PM #35
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It's all about affiliation when it comes to league approval. All of the leagues you have shot, don't go out and check portfolio's for the thumb's up on their media. They assume that the media source that you're affiliated with: Magazine ABC, Newspaper ABC, or Newswire ABC, has done their job and based their decision to employ you as the "portfolio" check.
Very True. Unfortunately in paintball world, organizations instead of picking photographers based off of experience pick for the most part based off of who will do it for "Free".

Quote:
The same is being done by the NPPL (I'm hoping) this season.
As do I. But I also hope they do not allow inexperienced photographers either just because they are shooting for a magazine for "free". If they do this it is good for us more experienced/qualified photographers. Because like I said if they do this it benefits both us and the league more. It benefits us because magazines and companies have to hire us and pay us if they want photos instead of undercutting us and going the FREE99 route with some GWC. This will then benefit the league because the images in the magazines and on the web will be of higher quality.


Quote:
If you have shot for numerous magazines, news sites, or a certain number of national events (since publications are so limited now a days) that you have the required skillset to shoot their event.
I hope that they do not deny pro access to such individuals just because they are not working for a magazine.
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Old 03-19-2011, 05:49 PM #36
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hey photomob stop saying crap bout me

im not gonne be taking it any more

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Old 03-19-2011, 06:11 PM #37
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Newsflash: A majority of us are in school or have jobs, so it's difficult for us to get the time off to travel, but we prioritize our lives correctly so that we're able to go to events. And how is it hard for you to get teams? What events were you planning on attending, but didn't go to because "it's hard for you to get teams"? I've only seen threads from you for NPPL HB, nothing else. WCPPL? They have an approved media list, so if you're not on it, then you're SOL.
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Old 03-19-2011, 06:16 PM #38
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i was only able to shoot HB last year because of yearbook and having to stay here to take pics for ID's and crap otherwise i would of shot LV or DC
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Old 03-19-2011, 07:05 PM #39
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Newsflash: A majority of us are in school or have jobs, so it's difficult for us to get the time off to travel, but we prioritize our lives correctly so that we're able to go to events. And how is it hard for you to get teams? What events were you planning on attending, but didn't go to because "it's hard for you to get teams"? I've only seen threads from you for NPPL HB, nothing else. WCPPL? They have an approved media list, so if you're not on it, then you're SOL.
I agree with Dave. You look at 80% of the photographers on this site/on the fields and I would bet they are people in school, or people who prioritize their lives correctly to play/attend events. Seriously, if one can hire a team, they should not have a problem paying $40, but that's my opinion.
It is going to cost me $1000 roughly to fly from Canada to shoot paintball in the states. I don't mind paying for it at all, but I haven't yet because I don't feel that I am qualified myself to be on the sidelines next to people like Mike, Robbo, Jeff, Gary and most of the other photographers who slave their guts out to provide excellent media coverage. I would be pissed at myself for getting in their way.
You need to build your way through the ranks. When I feel my photos are good enough, I can start generating revenue/cutting costs on my trips which will mean I will attend.
Until then, I will shoot local, and build.

This post might not be relevant to anything, just posting my story/$0.02

TL;DR: Most of us are students, stay in school, shoot for fun and build experience locally before stepping to big events.
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Old 03-19-2011, 07:34 PM #40
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i've had other priorities with my photography than paintball in the past 6 months or so
You're not going to gain any sympathy here. Off the top of my head, I know Rob shoots weddings and works in the studio, and Luke shoots professional sports. Paintball is a pretty low priority compared to that kind of work.

You need to understand two things.

The first is that the people you're talking to here have MANY years of experience shooting paintball. If you want to shoot at the big events, you can grind it out for a few years at local practices and tournaments first, just like everyone else did. As it currently stands, it looks like you're still learning how to use a camera. That's not an insult, it's an observation I can make just by looking.

The second is that your Photobucket account is not promoting the sport. Your intentions have nothing to do with this. The reach simply isn't there, and it isn't there for any Photobucket account. (I'm not sure the stalkerish photos of anything female at events conveys the right image, either)

Whatever the reasons might be that you're not more experienced with paintball or better credentialed, it doesn't change the fact that you're not qualified to shoot at a national event yet. You are at this time simply a guy with a camera running a side business. You don't have the knowledge or the experience - Not yet, anyway.
And you are not unique - Sports photography, wedding photography, and photojournalism are all experiencing a glut of unseasoned photographers, and they are not doing anyone any favors by attempting to train themselves at real events. What prospective photographers need to understand is photography is not a "buy in." Yes, you have a nice camera, and yes, when you trip the shutter some nice pictures sometimes fall out. There's more to it than this.
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Old 03-19-2011, 08:07 PM #41
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so my shots in PBx3 dont mean anything to promoting the sport??
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Old 03-19-2011, 08:20 PM #42
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so my shots in PBx3 dont mean anything to promoting the sport??
You mean the one shot of the pier that didn't have to do anything with paintball?

P.S. Please don't take offense to this but it's people like you who give photos to magazines for $0.00 that kill the industry. It makes it hard for us professional photographers to make money shooting because of GWC's like you who will do it for free. You say you want to be a photographer. Well if you do then stop giving magazines photos for nothing it kills the industry and ultimately kills you. Also don't feed my a line of BS saying that doing it for free will boost your portfolio and get you jobs because your published. Contrary to popular belief editors at real magazines & news papers could careless if you have been published. They care if you actually have the skills and experience not if you have been published in a E-Mag. ANYONE WHO SHOOTS FOR FREE IS KILLING THE INDUSTRY. I wish we could go back to the old days where it took skill to get into magazines and we were paid instead of it just being whoever wants to shoot for free can get into them.


TL;DR: People like YOU are killing the industry.
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