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Old 12-04-2010, 12:16 AM #85
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The only logical explanation I can figure the companies onboard with this thought was it would eliminate some of the competition. The companies that wouldn't conform would be out of the industry if this took off. I states thus passage as crisis of future because I don't see it actually happening.
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Old 12-06-2010, 10:23 PM #86
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This is a little bit different than just a new style of play with air bunkers and a new board mode, this is an entire industry switchover the difference between 50 cal and 68 is the the same as the difference between air soft and 68 cal. it isn't just a small mod to the marker it is a new industry wide change out of markers. and that will be very difficult to do, you would have to have everyone switch over at the exact same time, then of course we would all have to switch but i don't see that happening.
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Old 12-07-2010, 01:24 AM #87
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This is a little bit different than just a new style of play with air bunkers and a new board mode, this is an entire industry switchover the difference between 50 cal and 68 is the the same as the difference between air soft and 68 cal. it isn't just a small mod to the marker it is a new industry wide change out of markers. and that will be very difficult to do, you would have to have everyone switch over at the exact same time, then of course we would all have to switch but i don't see that happening.
Why would you have to switch? It's a viable option now to drop a 50 cal conversion kit into your marker like the Planet eclipse kit. You switch your kit and put another hopper on or Get the conversion kit that Empire is making for the prophecy's.

It may cost you some, but If you live in an area where the pro's of it out weigh the cons than it may be worth it to some, All that would need changing is adding another rule for .50 cal to be shot at a higher velocity. All that would require is the ASTM getting off their lazy ***** and write it down, The science is there, The physics are there. Once that is added, im sure the insurance companies will be just as happy to add .50cal at a higher velocity as long as the field enforces and checks what people are using. At 482 FPS it's not a firearm because because it's still under the 500FPS rule here in canada. So wheres the problem?

The way i see it is the ASTM people are just lazy and not bothering.

Are you forced to use .43 cal paint that some markers use? no. Are they trying to force you to use .50? Some are, will they succeed? Hell no. Would i be using it if the regulations changed on the FPS rule on 50 cal? Yes, simply because the cons are inferior to the pros.

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Old 12-07-2010, 04:50 AM #88
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Good luck with that - I recently ran into an insurance executive during depositions last week. It just so happened that he's involved in the "sports liability" division & is aware of (and worked on) cases for paintball.

We were able to talk in generalities regarding the various safety limits that are imposed by the insurance policies - including FPS. I asked him about .50 & the demand for a higher FPS due to the smaller projectile.

He said that, all things being equal, the insurance company doesn't see an upside for them to make the efforts to change the actuarial tables and invest in new testing parameters to justify a higher field limit for any projectile (airsoft is considered a completely different animal). They are very happy with the way things are now & don't feel the "chance" of increased injury claims by allowing a higher FPS is worth it.

So no, you shouldn't expect anyone to budget on the 300 FPS limit anytime soon.
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Old 12-07-2010, 06:18 AM #89
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more than 1 insurance company exists.

and what testing parameters? the math already exists. Chance of increased injury? i believe that waiver you sign when you go to a field every year (atleast here) insures the field of injury unless its their fault. I've talked to people in the insurance companies and they basically put the ball back into ASTM. It would be no different than airsoft, Infact airsoft has a longer list than paintball.

Like i said, all they need to is get off their *****.
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:47 AM #90
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Yes, there are plenty of insurance companies out there - but they all run off of the same actuarial tables. Those represent years of statistics and allow the companies to judge what they'll pay out in awards on their policies over the course of a given year.

From car accidents to sports injuries, each classification has its own table that the companies rely upon to make budgetary projections across the entire industry. These use these tables to also set premiums - so if injuries/awards start to track in a particular direction, they know to raise their rates accordingly to cover potential losses down the road.

All in all, 300 FPS was a good compromise for them - since they have over twenty years of data to work with and they are comfortable with the current projections.

If, and that's a BIG if, the ASTM does make a move on .50 - it would probably take three to five years for the insurance industry to make a move on the FPS limits.

Of course, if you want to play outlaw ball at a higher velocity (which you can do just as easily with .68) just remember that you are negatively impacting the entire industry by increasing the overall risks (which impact the insurance premiums that legitimate fields pay).
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:59 AM #91
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It may cost you some, but If you live in an area where the pro's of it out weigh the cons than it may be worth it to some, All that would need changing is adding another rule for .50 cal to be shot at a higher velocity. All that would require is the ASTM getting off their lazy ***** and write it down, The science is there, The physics are there. Once that is added, im sure the insurance companies will be just as happy to add .50cal at a higher velocity as long as the field enforces and checks what people are using. At 482 FPS it's not a firearm because because it's still under the 500FPS rule here in canada. So wheres the problem?

The way i see it is the ASTM people are just lazy and not bothering.
43 and 50 caliber are ratified by the ASTM.

I don't get where you figure ASTM member are lazy. More importantly, ASTM members have to pay out of pocket for the privilege to participate in making the sport better. If you can find a more dedicated group of people, please let me know because I would like to invite them to participate as well.

I might add that the only insurers that carry paintball field liability are members of the ASTM and it is common knowledge that they will not support higher velocities. Remember, the insurance companies are privately owned and will do what they need to do to mitigate risk because that is what insurance is all about. ASTM International has no say in that at all. Period.

For you information, I am an ASTM F08.24 - Paintball and Paintball Equipment member as well as a slew of other sub committees (including Airsoft).
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:53 PM #92
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Yes, there are plenty of insurance companies out there - but they all run off of the same actuarial tables. Those represent years of statistics and allow the companies to judge what they'll pay out in awards on their policies over the course of a given year.

From car accidents to sports injuries, each classification has its own table that the companies rely upon to make budgetary projections across the entire industry. These use these tables to also set premiums - so if injuries/awards start to track in a particular direction, they know to raise their rates accordingly to cover potential losses down the road.

All in all, 300 FPS was a good compromise for them - since they have over twenty years of data to work with and they are comfortable with the current projections.

If, and that's a BIG if, the ASTM does make a move on .50 - it would probably take three to five years for the insurance industry to make a move on the FPS limits.

Of course, if you want to play outlaw ball at a higher velocity (which you can do just as easily with .68) just remember that you are negatively impacting the entire industry by increasing the overall risks (which impact the insurance premiums that legitimate fields pay).
In short, there is no incentive for the insurance companies to budge so they won't.

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i believe that waiver you sign when you go to a field every year (atleast here) insures the field of injury unless its their fault.
The field owner must still exercise reasonable care to insure safety or even a mediocre attorney can obviate that waiver. The question then becomes whether allowing a higher velocity for a lighter ball is reasonable care. As noted above, it is unrealistic to assume that the field staff checking chrono will be that diligent in distinguishing between .68 at below 300 fps and .50 at 450 fps.

This made me think of something. How much trouble would it be to remove an Ego's .50 adapter kit once the marker is chrono'd? Intuitively, it seems like the air used to propel a .50 ball to 450 fps would be about the same as that required to launch a ball at ~ 300 fps, but you know some would try to gain an advantage.

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Old 12-10-2010, 07:01 AM #93
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Yeah, most field owners realize that the waiver doesn't count for much more than a reminder, particularly in today's society. All it really does is say "Hey, you might get hurt doing something stupid while playing here. Cool with that?" Even then, how many people seriously think about personal injury when signing a waiver like that anymore?
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Old 12-10-2010, 09:20 AM #94
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Yeah, most field owners realize that the waiver doesn't count for much more than a reminder, particularly in today's society. All it really does is say "Hey, you might get hurt doing something stupid while playing here. Cool with that?" Even then, how many people seriously think about personal injury when signing a waiver like that anymore?
I do. I am not getting any younger. I don't bounce off pavement anymore.
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Old 12-10-2010, 10:38 AM #95
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Well sure, I do as well, but 2 out of 6 billion?
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:36 PM #96
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Yes, two people... changing the world... one package of adult diapers at a time.
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Old 12-10-2010, 05:21 PM #97
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Yes, two people... changing the world... one package of adult diapers at a time.
and a lot of talcum powder....
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Old 12-11-2010, 12:55 AM #98
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Yes, two people... changing the world... one package of adult diapers at a time.
You guys are young pups. Age is cruel.

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Old 12-11-2010, 01:07 AM #99
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You guys are young pups. Age is cruel.

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Old 12-11-2010, 12:29 PM #100
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I don't have grey hair, I've gone white.
The Great White North?
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Old 12-11-2010, 04:02 PM #101
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The Great White North?
Perhaps. My beard is riddled with white hair, and my top has sprouted many coarse white ones.
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:35 PM #102
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50 cal may get some people into it

but the reason ramping became popular was because it gave an advantage, while 50 actually gives you a disadvantage

and for speedball, well it allowed for quicker games and tournaments, so it made sense to add another type of play

Quote:
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This made me think of something. How much trouble would it be to remove an Ego's .50 adapter kit once the marker is chrono'd? Intuitively, it seems like the air used to propel a .50 ball to 450 fps would be about the same as that required to launch a ball at ~ 300 fps, but you know some would try to gain an advantage.
Yeah, but there is a low chance that someone would do that. I think MOST people would realize that could injure someone severely. Of course there would be those couple of immature kids who may do this.

But who knows,bif the fps doesn't get moved up for 50 cal, it won't get popular at all.

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Old 12-12-2010, 11:19 PM #103
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I would consider using .50 cal at my field we play at.

The benefits outweigh the cons here in canada.

Paint having issues not breaking, Well its cold and up on a mountain where i play, so this could fix the issue by chilling the paint.

Paint cost - a case is $80. If i could pay 80-100$ for a case of 4000 This would save me money.

Size of paint - Shooting people between cracks would help a ton.

- The 285-300FPS limit. a 68 Cal ball at 300 fps is about 13 joules, a 50cal is about 5 joules. It's about half the distance.
Masks are rated for 300FPS. If you take a 50 cal at 1.2 grams at 13 joules, you get about 482 FPS. at 5 joules you get 299FPS.

If paintball regulations change for the FPS rule on .50 cal paint to atleast 450-480, You will have the same impact force as the 68 caliber, fixing the issue with paint not breaking on impact.

Some of you may think 482FPS is outrageous and will never happen, but don't think of how much a .68cal paintball weighs.

1.2 grams(50 cal) 3.2 grams (68cal)
5 joules @ 299.42 FPS 13.385 joules @ 300 FPS
135.2Ft effective range 135.46Ft effective range

Now If you could have the regulations changed at 300FPS to the 482FPS limit at 13 joules(the same kinetic force of a 68cal hitting your mask/body). You will have the same breakage, and an effective range of 218 feet.

But this is all theory that makes me wonder. If you can shoot it faster, it will have the same force as a 68.
you're calculations are assuming little to no brush and no wind. many .68 paintballs break when going through bushes. downsizing the ball will only make that issue worse. secondly, you gotta factor in wind. yes you may be factoring in the kinetic energy and all, but momentum and the laws of inertia still play a role. a .50 cal ball simply does not have the velocity to go through wind like a .68 cal does unless you're shooting at unsafe velocities (yes i'm considering 482 fps) unsafe despite.
continuing on shooting at 482 fps, that's just crazy fast. i once had a G3 shooting 400 fps when i ****ed with the reg too much, and even the .68 cal ball was hard to track. shooting an even smaller ball, at even higher velocities would just be ridiculous.
so that's my 2 cents. i don't mean to discredit your calculations, i checked them out myself, it's just that .50 cal is not a viable alternative to .68 cal for serious play yet.
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Old 12-18-2010, 08:50 PM #104
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I'm happy they put out the .50 markers. Makes it easier to get paint for the 3357's

And the comment about First strike rounds not being up to the hype? While they do not have '25x accuracy', more like 5x, and 2x range, I went through about 200 this year, and with the new lower prices, i'll probably go through more.

I've been shot by .43 and .50 paint. I gotta say it DOES hurt more. neither break very well, but are great for CQB. I think of them as the 9mm of paintball. Great for a pistol at close range, but for a long range firefight, give me a bigger caliber!
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Old 12-20-2010, 01:27 AM #105
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I'm happy they put out the .50 markers. Makes it easier to get paint for the 3357's

And the comment about First strike rounds not being up to the hype? While they do not have '25x accuracy', more like 5x, and 2x range, I went through about 200 this year, and with the new lower prices, i'll probably go through more.

I've been shot by .43 and .50 paint. I gotta say it DOES hurt more. neither break very well, but are great for CQB. I think of them as the 9mm of paintball. Great for a pistol at close range, but for a long range firefight, give me a bigger caliber!
Nelson has been making 50 caliber on a regular basis for years and years and years and years and years and years....
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