Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-16-2010, 12:13 PM #1
werminator
 
 
werminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: St. Louis
Stupid Question about Bolts

I am just wondering if anyone ever attempted to make a Quest bolt from delrin... I realize it could be a bit tricky as you would have to find a way to make it strong enough to not break during the cycle, and to incorporate the needed orings, but is seems to me that making it out of something so light and self-lubricating (yes, its a spoolie so you should still find some level of lube within) that maybe a bolt could be produced that would allow lower pressure or, at the very least, maybe see some sort of improvement in consistency or efficiency...
werminator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 09-16-2010, 02:58 PM #2
Uziel Gal
It's not a Geo2, honest..
 
Uziel Gal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: London, UK
Uziel Gal donated to help Peyton Trent
Uziel Gal owns a Planet Eclipse Geo
Uziel Gal owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
Uziel Gal supports our troops
No, I'm not aware of anyone having produced a synthetic bolt for the Quest. As you said yourself, if it was anything like a stock Quest bolt, only delrin, breakage would probably be an issue.

Possibly if you had thicker walls something could be done, but then you would need a narrower bolt pin. That in turn would change the volume of air stored for the shot, which could change the required operating pressure, and so on. Not to mention that having thicker walls would reduce the weight saving you made by using a synthetic in the first place.
Uziel Gal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2010, 01:42 AM #3
werminator
 
 
werminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: St. Louis
Or perhaps fewer slots... maybe 3 slots instead of multiple would make for a stronger bolt...
werminator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2010, 04:49 AM #4
Uziel Gal
It's not a Geo2, honest..
 
Uziel Gal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: London, UK
Uziel Gal donated to help Peyton Trent
Uziel Gal owns a Planet Eclipse Geo
Uziel Gal owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
Uziel Gal supports our troops
Well, Critical have done that with RSF bolt - four large slots rather than thin spokes all the way around the bolt. It's one of the ways in which they have improved their bolt over the stock bolt.

That is only one issue though, the depth of material under the o-rings being the other obvious one. That's why I mentioned wall thickness as being an issue.
Uziel Gal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2010, 10:40 PM #5
werminator
 
 
werminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: St. Louis
Yeah. I guess that is where most of them break... Not mine.. knock on wood...
werminator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2010, 11:52 AM #6
eatafetus
knows you love it.
 
eatafetus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I Chill in Ill
Annual Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
eatafetus supports our troops
eatafetus plays in the APPA D5 division
eatafetus is one of the top 1000 posters on PbNation
eatafetus is Legendary
eatafetus supports Empire
A better product than a delrin bolt would be to make one that has less mass, but still made of aluminum. Not make the current one thinner, but somehow make only the front move or something. Might be impossible, but it would be epic.
eatafetus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2010, 01:02 PM #7
I need a name
 
 
I need a name's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by eatafetus View Post
A better product than a delrin bolt would be to make one that has less mass, but still made of aluminum. Not make the current one thinner, but somehow make only the front move or something. Might be impossible, but it would be epic.
Possibly Carbon Fiber?
__________________
Snowboard Gear]
I need a name is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2010, 05:28 PM #8
werminator
 
 
werminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: St. Louis
I thought about that, but I don't have experience or finances to attempt such an evdeavor (or the delrin one for that matter). I know that there are a number of tinkerers on the nation and thought maybe someone with such knowledge might attempt such a bolt... If the cost isn't too high, I would be interested in a custom bolt or bolt engine...
werminator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2010, 10:43 PM #9
ChrisLogan
This is sparta.
 
ChrisLogan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Delrin would be a superior material for this application.

It offers much better shock resistance than brittle aluminum. And the way delrin fails is different anyway... Aluminum fails suddenly and catastrophically... Everytime. Additionally, you'd drop a little mass...

More importantly, you'd have a material that doesn't conduct sound. I jizz in my pants whenever a product goes on the market that will make my gun a little quieter.

I would shell out for a delrin bolt. It would be better in every way.
__________________
Looking for a Bob Long Species body... For a project.
Looking for a photoshop artist who can make vector images from scratch... For a project.

(There is a finder's fee available with a completed transaction for the above items.)

Last edited by ChrisLogan : 09-20-2010 at 10:46 PM.
ChrisLogan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2010, 05:04 PM #10
Fallinher0
Taking Power Tokens
 
Fallinher0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fremont, Ca
Annual Supporting Member
Fallinher0 donated to help Peyton Trent
I thinker Lurker once looked into making a bolt for the quest, but it wasnt worth it nor would it produce much difference then whats already available.
__________________
HUGE Gear Sale! Guns, Parts, and MORE!

Old Feedback
Never forget... Paintball is a LUXURY sport... calm down.
Fallinher0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2010, 11:24 AM #11
Lurker27
Engineering the Future
 
Lurker27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Annual Supporting Member
Lurker27 is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Lurker27 posts videos on PbNation
Lurker27 has been published on the PbNation Youtube Channel
Can't be done, the front o-ring is too small.

what someone should have done long ago is make a spring return that nests in the front of the quest. That would increase efficiency quite a lot. The first time I saw this: http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/quest1.gif

That's exactly what I thought they were trying to do, but they probably never got the tuning right (spring return spools are more friction sensitive).

I'd bet those insane shot counts they reported from Kelevara/Q8/other markers than never came out were by some similar mechanism.
__________________
World's Best Hard-Parts Upgrades!
EigenBarrels, Mini, AXE, Intimidators, DM, Shocker
Lurker27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2010, 01:56 PM #12
I need a name
 
 
I need a name's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker27 View Post
Can't be done, the front o-ring is too small.

what someone should have done long ago is make a spring return that nests in the front of the quest. That would increase efficiency quite a lot. The first time I saw this: http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/quest1.gif

That's exactly what I thought they were trying to do, but they probably never got the tuning right (spring return spools are more friction sensitive).

I'd bet those insane shot counts they reported from Kelevara/Q8/other markers than never came out were by some similar mechanism.
The spring sounds like a great idea, but I don't think that it would be needed and would be fairly hard to incorporate into the design.

I doubt that the Kelevara/Q8 had the spring return. I've touched just over 2000 on a 68/45 with my old quest. They were most likely just fully broken in with a different bolt design.
__________________
Snowboard Gear]
I need a name is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2010, 08:16 PM #13
ChrisLogan
This is sparta.
 
ChrisLogan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008


I did it first. 4 years ago initially. The date on that picture should be last year sometime.


Lurker... What do you mean that the front ring is too small? Which front ring, and what about it makes it too small to use?
__________________
Looking for a Bob Long Species body... For a project.
Looking for a photoshop artist who can make vector images from scratch... For a project.

(There is a finder's fee available with a completed transaction for the above items.)

Last edited by ChrisLogan : 09-23-2010 at 08:19 PM.
ChrisLogan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2010, 10:36 AM #14
snowboardgeek1
 
 
snowboardgeek1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
snowboardgeek1 owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
snowboardgeek1 owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
snowboardgeek1 supports Team VICIOUS
Was the spring used to solve FSDO? Did you gain any efficiency? Did it kick more or less? Do you have pictures of the spring itself and how it sits on the bolt pin? Length? Where did you purchase the spring?

Looks like a spring from Rhino, similar to what he offers for the shockers and Luxe's. I have 3 in my toolbox. I should try this out. If you can give me specs and show how it sits on the bolt pin, I'd appreciate it.

Last edited by snowboardgeek1 : 09-24-2010 at 10:38 AM.
snowboardgeek1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2010, 07:56 PM #15
ChrisLogan
This is sparta.
 
ChrisLogan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
I didn't have any drop off before the mod.
Yes.
It didn't kick before.
No further pictures. The bolt has other modifications that I'm not sharing.
I don't know how long. It doesn't matter.
Ace is the place.

For the advanced paintball engineer... Sit down and find your minimum operating pressure... That's how little air is required to stroke the bolt in either direction with infinite dwell. Add 10 psi for good measure. My total was 25.

Then calculate the piston area of the sail. Multiply by psi to get desired spring rate. Acquire a spring with said spring rate. Install.

Adjust your dwell to the minimum to keep cycling. The spring does most of the work, it just has to fight against the air left over in front of the sail as it exhausts. But you do need to keep bolt speed up for efficiency. So the dwell is really more of an "exhaust time" than an intake time.

More dwell, less pressure. Lower max rate of fire, quieter shot.

Just drop a spring into the backside of the bolt. If you can't figure it out from there, I can't really help you.

Ideally, we would have progressive wound springs, sized and available in different rates. But we don't. So you'll have to make a couple of bends to make it perfect.
__________________
Looking for a Bob Long Species body... For a project.
Looking for a photoshop artist who can make vector images from scratch... For a project.

(There is a finder's fee available with a completed transaction for the above items.)
ChrisLogan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2010, 10:34 PM #16
Lurker27
Engineering the Future
 
Lurker27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Annual Supporting Member
Lurker27 is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Lurker27 posts videos on PbNation
Lurker27 has been published on the PbNation Youtube Channel
Chris:

The bottom of the groove is too thin a wall to reliably use materials weaker than aluminum. That's all.
__________________
World's Best Hard-Parts Upgrades!
EigenBarrels, Mini, AXE, Intimidators, DM, Shocker
Lurker27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2010, 11:23 PM #17
ChrisLogan
This is sparta.
 
ChrisLogan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
The front ring on the bolt? Did you consider using a thinner oring? Or using a radiused tool instead of a square grooving tool to cut the ring groove?
__________________
Looking for a Bob Long Species body... For a project.
Looking for a photoshop artist who can make vector images from scratch... For a project.

(There is a finder's fee available with a completed transaction for the above items.)
ChrisLogan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2010, 11:32 PM #18
Lurker27
Engineering the Future
 
Lurker27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Annual Supporting Member
Lurker27 is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Lurker27 posts videos on PbNation
Lurker27 has been published on the PbNation Youtube Channel
I tend to radius all my grooves - but it didnt appear to be a stress riser from sharp corners on the goldmember failures - it was right in the middle of the groove.


You'd need to redesign to use a different seal, yes.

And if you go non-standard, it becomes a hassle about not being rebuildable for players...
__________________
World's Best Hard-Parts Upgrades!
EigenBarrels, Mini, AXE, Intimidators, DM, Shocker
Lurker27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump