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Old 08-23-2010, 01:10 AM #1
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back dooring a Tank

Today at the Decay of Nations I snuck up on a tank open the back curtain and shot both occupants. The ref pulled me and let the tank live. I know I should have listened to the rules better, but this should be one of the ways a tank is taken out. In real life tanks are very vulnerable to foot soldiers with a glass jar of alcohol and rag sticking out........some kind of cocktail????

I guess I am just pissed that my cool move was for nothing
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Old 08-23-2010, 06:52 AM #2
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the 15 foot buffer is there for the safety of the foot soldier. Tank storming is a debated maneuver. Say we start allowing the maneuver, the tank crews will start stepping up their defense efforts. How would you have gone about things if you threw that curtain open and the occupants unloaded on you at less than 15 feet away? Would it have been those *******s inside the tank at that point? It takes skill to sneak up behind a tank to get that close, and deserves recognition at least. But that tank ref should've called you a dead player as soon as you broke the plane for the 15 foot bubble.
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:04 AM #3
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Today at the Decay of Nations I snuck up on a tank open the back curtain and shot both occupants. The ref pulled me and let the tank live. I know I should have listened to the rules better, but this should be one of the ways a tank is taken out. In real life tanks are very vulnerable to foot soldiers with a glass jar of alcohol and rag sticking out........some kind of cocktail????

I guess I am just pissed that my cool move was for nothing
ABSOLUTELY A STUPID MOVE ON YOUR PART!!! DO YOU THINK THE RULES ARE THERE JUST SO THE PRODUCER CAN FILL UP THE PAGE WITH WORDS?!?! It is guys like you that are ruining tankers from showing up to games all over. If you slipped and fell before opening the curtain and the tank decided to back up I am sure you would have a line of lawyers waiting for you at the hospital. Paintball insurance companies dont want to insure tanks anymore, fields know they may not be covered so the rules are in place to do everything possible for a SAFE, INCIDENT FREE game. All it takes is someone to get killed b/c of a stupid stunt like that b/c they didnt read the rules and they thought they were making the highlight reel on youtube, and fields all over the country will disallow tanks unless they have their own insurance - which I have yet to find a company that will actually insure a paintball tank (as opposed to an ORV or an auto policy).

You want a jar of alcohol with a rag on it - buy some freaking grenades or something. What you consider "COOL" many think of it as utterly stupid and ruining the game for others. I think maybe you watched Saving Private Ryan a few too many times there with your "Sticky bombs."

I was at a field where a player did that and the ref wasnt sure of the rules so I parked my tank and approached the producer. The producer agreed about the DISTANCE NEEDED AROUND MY TANK REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE ENEMY WAS TRYING TO DO and the refs had to be made aware of the buffer. My biggest fear when I drive my tank on the field is some paste eater trying some "Super Cool Move" like you think you did and me running him over b/c he slipped and fell and I didnt know about it. YOUR NOT THAT COOL and this hobby/game we play on the weekends isnt worth it!!!

Please next time read the rules for everyones safety and if you want to kill tanks, get grenades or a LAW.
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Old 08-23-2010, 11:19 AM #4
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this reminds me of the time I was at Skirmish for a record-breaking game where a player attempted to "storm" a tank. This guy stood up from behind his bunker, got shot by the tank, continued to run toward the tank, climbed up onto the tank, shoved his tippmann through one of the gun ports and blasted away. The tank stopped all movement, the guy came down off of the tank fist pumping with his buddies all cheering him on. The ref standing there did nothing. It took the tank some time before it came off field. Of course, watching this I went to see if the tank crew was ok. The driver was less than 16 years old and his head was the only place on him covered in paint. He said he was okay. I had a tank sitting at home at that point and earlier in the day had wanted to bring my tank to the following year's game. This incident made me not only want to never bring my tank on-field at this event, but it made me question coming back as a player in the future. I did for ION this year and was just as dumbfounded by other incidents. I spoke my mind about the incident at ION in another thread but apparently my concerns are not shared by others. But that's there. This is about tank storming. I can tell you if that were me, in my tank, in the scenario I witnessed; I would've been the ******* because I would've physically beat the "hero" who stormed the tank to a pulp with his own marker.
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Old 08-23-2010, 06:05 PM #5
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More clarification needed.

It was a non motorized tank (no 15 foot rule)

I had a Carter buzzard (stock class)

I was not going to dump on anyone blindly, I shot them both low (Butt and Leg)

If I got zipped from the guys inside, I would not cry about it. Play NPPL a few times and you know what it is like to get shot close.

They did not defend themselves well and they should have lost the tank.
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Old 08-23-2010, 08:26 PM #6
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Stockplayer, As a tanker and a victim of a tank stormer that almost cost me a trip to the hospital and the end of my playing days from ION '08. Let me tell you that no matter the tank its really not a good idea for you or anyone else to get that close where you put your marker/smoke or paint granade inside of a tank. Most fields have these safety distance rules for a reason. Its so we dont get hurt. If you want to be cool and hit a tank at close range then get a rocket launcher or maybe a paint granade. If not stay the heck away from the tank and call for AT support.

What happened to me in ION '08 was some guy with a RPG hit me broadside at very close range with a rocket as I went by a bunker. That hit blew out my window and a rocket hit me in the back of the head. I had a mask on but it only covered the front and sides of my head. When I stopped the tank because I was dazed by the hit. Another player with his marker saw my open window and lit me up again at close range. I was so dazed from the first hit I was just able to cover my head and shoulder to some extent. I must of got hit 100 times or more. I had welts all over my neck, left arm, and shoulders. I had a knott on the back of my head the size of a golf ball. WHat made matters worse my tank ref was on the other side of the tank and didnt see what was happening. He didnt see the rocket hit but did see the guy shooting his marker. He stopped him and immediately came into my tank to see how I was. The ref stopped play and helped me out of my tank. I was hurt and the tank ref helped me off the field. A little later I went to the field doctor for an examination. He didnt think I need a trip to the hospital at that point. I was done for the day at that point. I got such a bad headache from that head hit when I went to bed that nite. I was kinda scared I had some internal injury to my head and was afraid to go to sleep. I should have went to the hospital anyway to get checked out. So you see your so called I made a cool play on a tank could result in a incident like mine and could hurt someone. Just to let you know if a player ever storms my tank again and I or my crewman get hurt. Then I will call the police and press assaught charges on them. And if I/we go to the hospital they will be made responsible for any costs. And perhaps if that doesnt work a serious beatdown on that person could happen. So maybe you guys should think of the guys and gals in these tanks before you go blazing away.

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Old 08-23-2010, 10:17 PM #7
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Stockplayer: You broke the rules, maybe due to ignorance, but still... broke the rules. Ergo, NOT a cool move. You obviously want to excel at the game, but you will get real respect by using that ingenuity WITHIN the rules.

From reading your post I don't get the impression that you were intending to cheat or be mean, and you're annoyed that your efforts went un-appreciated. Well, aside from the fact (as readily evidenced by tanker's responses) that your tactics were unworthy, I hope you won't get too bummed out by the primarily negative responses you have gotten thus far. I DO hope you will hook up with some players that DO take the time to read, understand, and abide by the rules to help you appreciate the importance of playing by the rules, you will find that excelling within the rules is a great deal more rewarding on a personal level and much more likely to earn genuine respect.

I am still drawing and gathering parts for my tank, I will be seriously pissed if somebody's foolishness makes my tank un playable before I even get the chance to take it to a game!
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:36 PM #8
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I'm reminded of using my old tank at a Giant Big Game a few years back. At the time there were only 2 tanks in the area, and near ZERO anti-tank launchers. So the rule was grenades could take out a tank. OK by me, but us tanks were allowed to park on the field, so no slow parade for us. Also had the usual 20 foot rule.

Anyway we were heading to the middle of the field to engage the main line, but due to a strange quirk of the field, designated tank trail went out of bounds, we got separated from our ground pounders. We re-entered the field and found our selves in the MIDDLE of the other team. Yeah, we went through a LOT of paint in a short time. So we're mowing down players and one does the charge. Luckily we tend to get a good bunch of guys at GBG, so he just stuck his barrel through a shooting port and called for surrender.

At this point we calmly informed him of a few things. One, tank crews were immune to normal paintball gun fire. Two, only a thrown grenade could eliminate the tank, and since he didn't have one there was technically no way for him to eliminate us. Three, he was well within the 20 foot rule, but not to worry, we'll of course wait until he was 20 feet away before shooting at him.

Never seen a player run so fast in my entire playing career.

Of course while watching him run I hear that familiar "thunk, pssssss" of a grenade.
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:39 PM #9
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Most of the games I've been to does not allow storming of tanks first the players in the tanks are immoral unless taken out by a LAW, Satchel charge, or disable by a grenade (no movement, but it can still fire). So there is no reason to be shooting inside a tank. the only time I can see someone shooting inside (still outside the 20 foot zone) a tank is when the gunner is expose or players in the tank opens up a port/door or is exiting while the tank is live even than you should be at least 20 foot from it. Otherwise no one outside the tank has the right to open any port/door/neting to shoot into the tanks.

Second the 20 foot rules are there for everyones safety. Yes, walking tanks are not require to follow the 20 foot safety zone only cause it's hard to run over a player with one, if they do they can react faster. But the rules applies that no one is allowed to open a port, netting, or door to shoot into the tank.

One way to take out a tanks that makes it daring is taking out a tank with a satchel charge that's been set off underneath the vehicle. You can throw them without issues outside the 20 foot safety zone underneath a tank or run up to walking tank and throw or place it underneath the tank.
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:39 PM #10
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we had some tool come up to us and stick his gun iin our gunport once. only we where not even in play. the ref proptly put the smackdown on the player. we also returned fire of course. in play or not if you shoot someone from 1 ft away expect to get drilled

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NxwlozDdj4
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Old 08-24-2010, 02:09 AM #11
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Gentlemen some of you did not read my second post.

This should be a thread about the philosophy of tank usage and the rules governing them. This is not a thread about safety. I know some of you have been playing paintball for a long time, well so have I. I have shot paintballs at people in four different decades (80s, 90s, 00s, 10s). Not to brag, but do not lecture me about playing safely. Now I admit I have not played a scenario before this weekend, but I do know something about the game. I feel bad about some of your experiences with people dumping into your tanks. I would never stick my barrel through a port. That breaks the universal rule of do not shoot through anything you can not fit your head through.

2 Quotes from the “Decay of Nations” rules-

1. PUGs and Walking Tanks: Exempt from 20′ rule

2. Players may NOT approach any tank, insert a marker barrel into an opening and shoot the occupants. You will be ejected from the field … no exceptions!

I did not break either one of those rules governing tanks.

In the end, if you guys want to use tanks in scenarios then try to make it as real as possible. All tanks should be venerable to foot soldiers if they are not being supported by their own forces. Anyone that has served, or knows about History knows that tanks will not move without ground support. The Germans were the first ones to say tanks do not guard soldiers, soldiers guard tanks.

I see no holes in my argument. It was a good move, it was a safe move, it should have been legal, and if anyone wants to complain about getting one balled by a player pump gun, they you are in the wrong sport. This was not a rocket to the back of the head, or a 100 hits on a shoulder and neck. I had a clear view of my targets and I hit them low.

What ever you guys missed my point, the only thing I regret is not getting it on tape. Do not get all righteous on me, you guys all want the glory too.

Maybe I should stick to speedball.

good discussion.
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Old 08-24-2010, 02:37 AM #12
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Come on tank owners dont sound like a bunch of crybabies. We get to drive around and pretty much destroy everybody on foot. That includes shooting unsuspecting victims in the back several times if they dont realize they have been shot the first time and try to move away from incoming fire. I get destroyed every time I go out as well as the people with me, and we deserve it. If you dont like getting shot then make your tank unpenetrable. My son wears a full head helmet and a ski vest because of all the incoming fire. Stockplayer may have broke the rules about the distance but he doesnt need all the bashing he is getting from you guys.
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Old 08-24-2010, 02:52 AM #13
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Stockplayer may have broke the rules about the distance but he doesnt need all the bashing he is getting from you guys.
Did not even do that.
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Old 08-24-2010, 03:03 AM #14
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I saw the whole thing form the sideline.........it was pretty cool, the crowd was laughing and cheering. Leave it to the blowfish to mix things up a bit. Someone said,” that guy just took out a tank by himself” someone else said,” holy s**t he has a pump”. We were upset when the ref called him out.

Funny part is most of us were on the same side as the tank!

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Old 08-24-2010, 07:17 AM #15
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I acknowledge that I am very new to the sport. I was not at the game. I have searched and read perhaps a dozen different field's rules and producer's rules for tanks. The only case I found where the tank crew is vulnerable to AP fire is the case of a APC crew when discharging or loading crunchies, otherwise, they are immune to small arms fire.

I am glad that you have supported the sport for so long, but even though it does sound like a Kobayashi Maru scenario, and assuming the tank rules were consistent with every other rule set I have read, you still broke the rule. I am not whining, just stating what I believe to be the case. I can respect thinking outside the box. Had to do that in the military, was expected of me. I get it.

Like you, I would like to see some changes in some rules, maybe I would not choose the same changes as you, but I appreciate the sentiment. However, given the fact that the guys you shot were operating under the premise that they would not / could not be fired upon in the fashion you describe, and their premise was well founded (I assume, from my reading of other game's rules) you for all practical purposes just "one-balled" two players inside the re-spawn point.

I would give you full credit for creative thinking, then smack you upside the head ((NCIS-Gibb's style) for being a bad sport. Not sure which I would feel more strongly about.

I really do appreciate the position, from both aspects. Own it. Learn from it. Let it go. Do it "legally" next time.
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Old 08-24-2010, 07:52 AM #16
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If I saw that I would lit you up as you walked away from the tank after "cool move". What if your first hit knocked off his mask and you shot him in the eye? You would never be playing Paintball again. You would be this guy's finical slave for the rest of your live.

Besides this is not war it is a game. If you want take out a real tank with a jar go join the army or fight as a Mercenary. We will see how long you last with a stupid move like that.

Finally, "Treat others as you would like to be treated" if you were in the tank do you think you would have liked someone else to do the same to you?

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Old 08-24-2010, 09:10 AM #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stockplayer View Post
Maybe I should stick to speedball.
I wouldn't go all knee jerk over this and not play scenario anymore. You have skill enough to sneak up on a moving fortress that by design doesn't even have engine noise to mask your steps. Barrel tap the tank with a LAW launcher next time or something. Althought I do not care for tank storming, had I seen you do that, I probably would've offered you a spot on my team because of the level of skill involved in that move.

A lot of us guys have negative experiences with tank storming. That is reflected in all of the above posts. When it comes down to it, tank storming is tank storming no matter the situation or rules and I can't say I could ever agree with it.

Also, it comes down to the ref's discretion. Ultimately the field representative standing there has to make a judgement in an instant. I'm going to assume for a minute that his red flag was that you gained access to the interior of the tank as an active player and shot the guys on the inside. How you did it, where you were when you shot them may all be irrelevant to him. Who knows.

It takes skill to do what you did. Kudos for that.

Did us tankers take this thread a little bit past where it needs to be. You betcha. We always do. It's kind of our thing, other than building tanks.

The situation though should be brought to the attention of the producer of the game, so that there may be clarification in the rules so this confusion doesn't happen again. We can always learn from any situation, and I think the people who write the rules could use a lesson from this. I know when I start producing my scenarios in the upcoming months, I'll be writing the tank portion with this and other incidents in mind.

edit: on the Gibbs slap
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Old 08-24-2010, 10:46 AM #18
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Originally Posted by Stockplayer View Post
Today at the Decay of Nations I snuck up on a tank open the back curtain and shot both occupants.
My post was not to attack anyone but to point out some rules at some fields. Your own wording you stated you open the back curtain and shot the occupants with one or two balls (just because you one or two balled them does not mean others will do the same that's why it's not allowed) which is a no no even without the 20 foot rule on a walking tank. This is one of the item that's setting off some of the tank owners. Best thing to do is learn the rules.

Quote:
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In real life tanks are very vulnerable to foot soldiers with a glass jar of alcohol and rag sticking out........some kind of cocktail????
Yes, you can use satchel charge or grenade for this or like me use a LAW.

Don't let all the replies turn you off with playing Scenario games. Did you have fun? Did you learn something new? Did you make new friends? Did this one incident teach you anything? Answers to all those questions and more should be the deciding factor if you would play Scenario again.
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Old 08-24-2010, 10:57 AM #19
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Originally Posted by Stockplayer View Post
More clarification needed.

It was a non motorized tank (no 15 foot rule)
I had a Carter buzzard (stock class)
I was not going to dump on anyone blindly, I shot them both low (Butt and Leg)
If I got zipped from the guys inside, I would not cry about it. Play NPPL a few times and you know what it is like to get shot close.
They did not defend themselves well and they should have lost the tank.
Ok. I may have been a bit jumpy on this one as it wasnt clarified to be a non-motorized tank, my apologies. As stated by others, us tankers are very passionate about adding this element to the game. However I still have a couple of things:

1. I dont care what kind of gun you had. That argument is irrelevant.

2. YOU STILL BROKE THE RULES OF THE GAME AND TECHNICALLY SHOULD HAVE BEEN EJECTED FROM THE FIELD!!! It doesnt matter if you knew the rules or not. It is the duties of a player (especially one who has played in 4 decades) to know the rules of the field in which they play. The argument of "Your honor, I didnt know it was against the law so can you let me go?" will never hold water. Read the rules or stop cyring b/c you were told no.

This is part of the rules from Decay of Nations website:
Tank Eliminations:
Tanks can only be eliminated by impacts from a nerf round, satchel charge (being “placed” on or under the vehicle… NOT THROWN at a vehicle), paint grenades (will disable a tank’s movement for 5 minutes, the tank may still fire… no engineer needed, after 5min. the tank will resume movement), or a land mine.

PUGs and Walking Tanks: Exempt from 20′ rule
All applicable rules within the “Tank & Vehicles” section will carry over to non-motorized PUGs and “walking” tanks/mechs, as well as:

1. They must look like tanks/mechs
2. They can be used for cover
Safety Note:
Players may NOT approach any tank, insert a marker barrel into an opening and shoot the occupants. You will be ejected from the field … no exceptions!


So however cool you think you were, you still broke all but one of the tank rules. Yes you were allowed to get within 20' b/c of the walking tank but you didnt have the proper weapon to destroy it and you shot inside of it. Two major parts of destroying tanks.

Great job on being stealthy and I will be the first one to give kudos to any AT guys who lies in wait to get that perfect kill shot. That is part of the "high" us tankers get.
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Old 08-24-2010, 11:15 AM #20
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Originally Posted by noclue119 View Post
If I saw that I would lit you up as you walked away from the tank after "cool move". What if your first hit knocked off his mask and you shot him in the eye? You would never be playing Paintball again. You would be this guy's finical slave for the rest of your live.

Besides this is not war it is a game. If you want take out a real tank with a jar go join the army or fight as a Mercenary. We will see how long you last with a stupid move like that.

Finally, "Treat others as you would like to be treated" if you were in the tank do you think you would have liked someone else to do the same to you?

read the post
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Old 08-24-2010, 11:20 AM #21
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good talk guys
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