[Theheat]

Does that make them sinners? Im just wondering. post up your thoughts

[babsa_90]

Originally Posted by Theheat

Does that make them sinners? Im just wondering. post up your thoughts

I've posted numerous sources that show that they are born homosexual in other subforums, so i'd hope that that would answer the title... If they lay with another man, than yes they are sinners.

[Hawke]

You couldn't possibly prove that they're born gay.

[Laureate]

i would just like to say that anyone who says that being gay is a choice and that you are not born gay, is in fact a gay person.

hopefully everyone here is smart enough to evaluate that statement and understand it without me needing to explicate it

[pok3ypup]

We're born with some crazy **** called original sin. It's not too crazy to thing someone could be born gay. God bless America.

[babsa_90]

Originally Posted by Hawke

You couldn't possibly prove that they're born gay.

http://www.narth.com/docs/bioresearch.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0617151845.htm
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neur...web1/Rana.html
http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

Read them. But here, just in case you decide to not read them, let me post the most clear-cut experiments.

Originally Posted by allpsych.com

D.F. Swaab conducted the next noteworthy experiment in 1990. This experiment became the first to document a physiological difference in the anatomical structure of a gay man's brain. Swaab found in his post-mortem examination of homosexual males' brains that a portion of the hypothalamus of the brain was structurally different than a heterosexual brain. The hypothalamus is the portion of the human brain directly related to sexual drive and function. In the homosexual brains examined, a small portion of the hypothalamus, termed the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), was found to be twice the size of its heterosexual counterpart [2].

At the same time, another scientist, Laura S. Allen made a similar discovery in the hypothalamus as well. She found that the anterior commissure (AC) of the hypothalamus was also significantly larger in the homosexual subjects than that of the heterosexuals [2]. Both Swaab's and Allen's results became a standing ground for the biological argument on homosexuality. The very fact that the AC and the SCN are not involved in the regulation of sexual behavior makes it highly unlikely that the size differences results from differences in sexual behavior. Rather the size differences came prenatally during sexual differentiation. The size and shape of the human brain is determined biologically and is impacted minutely, if at all by behavior of any kind.

Simon LeVay conducted another experiment regarding the hypothalamus of the human brain in 1991. LeVay, like Swaab and Allen also did a post-mortem examination on human brains; however, he did his examinations on patients who had died from AIDS-related illnesses. He examined 19 declared homosexual man, with a mean age of 38.2, 16 presumed heterosexual men, with a mean age of 42.8, and 6 presumed heterosexual women, with a mean age of 41.2 [3]. LeVay discovered that within the hypothalamus, the third interstitial notch of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3) was two to three times smaller in homosexual men then in heterosexual men. The women examined also exhibited this phenomenon. LeVay concluded the "homosexual and heterosexual men differ in the central neuronal mechanisms that control sexual behavior", and like Allen and Swaab, agreed that this difference in anatomy was no product of upbringing or environment, but rather prenatal cerebral development and structural differentiation [2].

Stop making idiotic and ignorant statements when you obviously have no idea what you are talking about Hawke.

[vijil]

Those experiments don't explain why children who are abused are more likely to end up gay. There are plenty of studies linking early life experience with long term sexuality.

The fact is that it's a variety of factors. You can be born with a predisposition, sure, but your upbringing will impact this as well.

Also, the Bible is clear: being internally gay isn't a sin if you don't act on it. Chances are you will though, just as my background and genes make me likely to be lazy - also a sin. There's not really a difference from a Christian perspective. Living a perfect sinless life is impossible and always has been.

[Laureate]

Originally Posted by vijil

Those experiments don't explain why children who are abused are more likely to end up gay. There are plenty of studies linking early life experience with long term sexuality.

The fact is that it's a variety of factors. You can be born with a predisposition, sure, but your upbringing will impact this as well.

Also, the Bible is clear: being internally gay isn't a sin if you don't act on it. Chances are you will though, just as my background and genes make me likely to be lazy - also a sin. There's not really a difference from a Christian perspective. Living a perfect sinless life is impossible and always has been.

/thread

[Hawke]

Those articles proved nothing.

Hell, the "The Homosexual Brain?" outright shoots down the previous articles about the hypothalamus and the quote you posted regarding patients who died from AIDs. It also brings up conflicting reports of LeVay and others.

This casts doubt on already ambiguous results of whether or not sexual orientation is caused by brain differences or whether the samples LeVay used were unreliable due to the degenerative effects of AIDS on the brain.

For example, he found heterosexual men with small INAH-3 nuclei and homosexual men with very large INAH-3 nuclei.

'The Biological Research on Homosexuality' states that "two of the leading researchers, J. M. Bailey and R. C. Pillard, were forced to admit otherwise by the results of their own research."

And when your conclusion after a study of 90 brains is that some were shown to be "slightly asymmetric", you don't have a very strong case.

Sorry, but if you truly believe the above is definitive proof we can all clearly see who the idiotic ignorant one is.

[babsa_90]

Originally Posted by vijil

Those experiments don't explain why children who are abused are more likely to end up gay. There are plenty of studies linking early life experience with long term sexuality.

The fact is that it's a variety of factors. You can be born with a predisposition, sure, but your upbringing will impact this as well.

Also, the Bible is clear: being internally gay isn't a sin if you don't act on it. Chances are you will though, just as my background and genes make me likely to be lazy - also a sin. There's not really a difference from a Christian perspective. Living a perfect sinless life is impossible and always has been.

Are you telling me that all homosexuals are the result of nurture and not nature? I NEVER said that all homosexuals were born the way they are. I was addressing the question of whether or not babies are born gay, and the answer is yes, babies can be born gay. I do, however, agree with your latter statement.

[Laureate]

Originally Posted by babsa_90

Are you telling me that all homosexuals are the result of nurture and not nature? I NEVER said that all homosexuals were born the way they are. I was addressing the question of whether or not babies are born gay, and the answer is yes, babies can be born gay. I do, however, agree with your latter statement.

hopefully you decided to NOT take up that argument in the other thread, because you just made a simple "logical fallacy" (said in a geeky annoying voice)

[warbeak2099]

Hawke, you're wrong too buddy. Nothing in psychology is clear cut one way or the other. The FACT of the matter is that sexual preference is a combination of nature and nurture. How much each plays a role is still debatable.

[Hawke]

Originally Posted by warbeak2099

Hawke, you're wrong too buddy. Nothing in psychology is clear cut one way or the other. The FACT of the matter is that sexual preference is a combination of nature and nurture. How much each plays a role is still debatable.

No, I'm not wrong. I simply stated that it's not possible to prove that someone is born gay. Nor is it possible to prove that it's a combination. There is no 'fact of the matter' because nothing has been determined to be fact. Posting some ****ty reports [while taking them as fact towards nature] and then calling someone else ignorant is laughable at best.

[Shemp 5]

born gay... simple as that. I've talked to enough gay people and they all say they are born gay and it was not a choice

[Umami]

Originally Posted by Shemp 5

born gay... simple as that. I've talked to enough gay people and they all say they are born gay and it was not a choice

Better question than "are babies born gay?":

Why does it matter?

[DayoftheGreek]

Originally Posted by Umami

Better question than "are babies born gay?":

Why does it matter?

Why does any question matter? Why does anything at all matter?

[Sunshine86]

Originally Posted by vijil

Living a perfect sinless life is impossible and always has been.

Unless, of course, one doesn't believe in sin...then it isn't really an issue.

[ἔρως-φιλία-ἀγάπη]

This is the same as the dumb nurture vs. nature argument. Some people may be born gay, while some people develop a homosexual mindstate as they grow.

[Umami]

Originally Posted by DayoftheGreek

Why does any question matter? Why does anything at all matter?

I guess I was trying to get at his motivation for the question...

So to the OP, what difference does it make?

[SuperSupra619 (Banned)]

The fact that a grown gay mans brain is different then a straight mans doesn't prove anything. The differences between the brains could be the effect and not the cause, and isn't really relative to when they are fresh out of the womb. That is what scientists are struggling to figure out.

[Sunshine86]

Originally Posted by DayoftheGreek

Why does any question matter? Why does anything at all matter?

GTFO Nietzsche