Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

 
Archived Thread - Cannot Edit  
Old 07-20-2004, 03:17 PM #43
MackyGOG
MATRIXOWNER.COM AGENT
 
MackyGOG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Poulsbo ,WA
MackyGOG is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Very well said, and the point that most should take out of this is understanding what you are doing to your marker. If you put a new Regulator, bolt, board, chip whatever you should understand its capabilities are.

I find it very disappointing that the NPPL is using a robot to judge the standard. When in fact it is not made readily available for the teams particapating in the tournament to judge there guns against the standard.

I only know when my gun is bouncing like a mad man. After that well its anyone's guess.

I think before calling all the players cheaters and DQ's the teams, they should allow teams to prepare thier equipment for the field of play. I don't get to chrono my gun by visual site so why should we be held accountable for rate of fire too.

Obivious cheat modes and adjustment to the guns on field I can see a DQ call for but not for something only a robot can tell.

I think the NPPL should look at the use of the robot again, and revisit the DQ rules.
MackyGOG is offline  
Old 07-20-2004, 03:37 PM #44
chopper
 
 
chopper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: tx
 has been a member for 10 years
Hey the DQ thing is a rule, with what Redz, Chop Shop and ourselves have endured I do not think halfway through this season would be an acceptable time to change the rule.

The rule is the rule we played & payed buy it and I would plan on seeing it all year.

Hey if you guys learn from our experiance, great I would love to see no other teams get DQ'd the rest of the season. If you choose not to heed our warning chances are you won't get caught, but if you do, you can't say you were not warned.
chopper is offline  
Old 07-20-2004, 03:42 PM #45
MackyGOG
MATRIXOWNER.COM AGENT
 
MackyGOG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Poulsbo ,WA
MackyGOG is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Or play the PSP and that doesn't use a robot. They have a set test for trigger bounce that can be performed by a ref on the field using actual trigger pulls.
MackyGOG is offline  
Old 07-20-2004, 03:51 PM #46
MackyGOG
MATRIXOWNER.COM AGENT
 
MackyGOG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Poulsbo ,WA
MackyGOG is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Straight from the PSP Rules:
Markers may only fire one shot per press and release of force on the trigger Ė this is NOT the same as per cycle of the trigger. If the trigger can be held with a constant force and fire more than one shot or fires more than one shot from when the trigger is pulled until it is released (due to switch bounce, shot buffering, or any other reason) it is not legal.
Possible testing method:
First, the judge will fully depress and hold the trigger. While holding the trigger fully depressed, the judge will attempt to move the trigger side to side. The judge will then release the trigger. No more than one burst of air may have been fired. Second, the judge will as quickly as possible fully depress and then release the trigger. No more than one burst of air may have been fired. Third, the judge will apply pressure to the trigger perpendicular to the plane of the marker and then attempt to fully depress and release the trigger. No more than one burst of air may have been fired. Fourth, the judge will slowly, over a period not to exceed two seconds, fully depress the trigger in one continuous motion and then, over a period not to exceed two seconds, slowly release the trigger in one continuous motion. No more than one burst of air may have been fired. Fifth, the judge will fire the marker at a rate of fire of approximately 6 shots per second, to test for Turbo mode. The marker may not appear to fire more than one shot per trigger pull. If any of the five tests are failed, a player may request that the complete set of five tests is repeated an additional two times by the Scrutinizer. The marker will be deemed legal if it passes every subsequent test and be otherwise deemed illegal. These tests will be performed with the marker held in a manner and position consistent with playing on the field. A marker that does not pass this test may still be deemed illegal if the Scrutinizer can demonstrate that it is illegal through some other means.
If your marker does something bad because you donít know how to use it or itís broken, youíre eliminated. If it does something bad because you reflashed the board with different programming, youíre suspended.
Essentially, anything that can adjust velocity, shot mode, de-bounce, etc, must be locked-down so it canít be changed on the field.

I looked through the NPPL rules and i did not find anyhting similar
MackyGOG is offline  
Old 07-20-2004, 04:03 PM #47
titan
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lansing, MI
 has been a member for 10 years
The robot catches all....guess one slipped though?

Sorry to hear chopper. That's never a fun thing to deal with and I'm sure with all the contoversy going on right now that the Tadao would not be released with ramping software. I hear them Equalizer boards work just great!
titan is offline  
Old 07-20-2004, 04:27 PM #48
turbulenceBACK
Turbulence Captain
 
turbulenceBACK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: San Diego
 has been a member for 10 years
Maybe once the gun gets going, the switch is bouncing between shots. I would say put your stock board in it, and see if it bounces, if it does then the AMB (anti-mechanical bounce) software is preventing bounce when shrot strings of shots are fired, but once a longer string gets going, the AMB software doesnt prevent it all.

If the stock board shoots the gun everytime you pull the trigger, how can after market boards make the gun shoot any faster? Can someone explain that too me?

All I can think is that the AMB doesnt catch all the bounce when you're pounding on the trigger, yet when you try pulling the trigger slowly, the AMB software prevents it from bouncing.
__________________
Turbulence Paintball Team - See you next time!

www.poopegifts.com
Play Scrabble Online
Play Bejeweled 2 Online
turbulenceBACK is offline  
Old 07-20-2004, 06:16 PM #49
MackyGOG
MATRIXOWNER.COM AGENT
 
MackyGOG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Poulsbo ,WA
MackyGOG is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
AMB is for slow pulls going full auto. It s saftey feature. Regular debounce feature is still used.

Macky
MackyGOG is offline  
Old 07-20-2004, 06:34 PM #50
Farside_Kyle
Killing Machine
 
Farside_Kyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Windy Chi Trose
 has been a member for 10 years
i herd they shoot the robot at 6bps, which is not fast by any means. pulling the trigger at 6bps 10 times, and getting 15 shots seems kind of noticable isn't it?
__________________
Making a comeback?
Farside_Kyle is offline  
Old 07-20-2004, 06:48 PM #51
titan
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lansing, MI
 has been a member for 10 years
Sounds like they need to get back to the good stuff......Equalizer board.
titan is offline  
Old 07-20-2004, 07:17 PM #52
TEALCOBRA
ILL $630$
 
TEALCOBRA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Chi-Town
 has been a member for 10 years
The robot shoots ALOT faster than 6 BPS. If I were able to notice the "extra" shots coming out of the end of my barrel I would have never used the thing..... It's not worth our entire team getting DQ'ed for 3 extra balls....
__________________
Team 665 - Almost Evil
TEALCOBRA is offline  
Old 07-20-2004, 07:33 PM #53
MackyGOG
MATRIXOWNER.COM AGENT
 
MackyGOG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Poulsbo ,WA
MackyGOG is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally posted by titan
Sounds like they need to get back to the good stuff......Equalizer board.
Players want to step forward not back.
MackyGOG is offline  
Old 07-20-2004, 07:37 PM #54
TEALCOBRA
ILL $630$
 
TEALCOBRA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Chi-Town
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally posted by MackyGOG
Players want to step forward not back.
__________________
Team 665 - Almost Evil
TEALCOBRA is offline  
Old 07-20-2004, 11:11 PM #55
titan
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lansing, MI
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally posted by MackyGOG
Players want to step forward not back.
Ya stepping forward off the field because their guns are getting pulled. Seems there has been a huge rise in the amount of people not being able to get their markers to stop bouncing and getting pulled or suspended due to bounce or ramping in this case. The Equalizers have already maxed out every markers potential and do not chop...legally...what can be better than that? Ah well, enjoy.
titan is offline  
Old 07-20-2004, 11:31 PM #56
turbulenceBACK
Turbulence Captain
 
turbulenceBACK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: San Diego
 has been a member for 10 years
So if a marker with a stock board shoots everytime you pull the trigger, how can a WAS or Tadao board make the gun faster?
__________________
Turbulence Paintball Team - See you next time!

www.poopegifts.com
Play Scrabble Online
Play Bejeweled 2 Online
turbulenceBACK is offline  
Old 07-21-2004, 06:56 AM #57
doby45
Ya like that?
 
doby45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Atlanta, GA
doby45 is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Seems a few Dynasty markers got pulled a while back that had some ghetto rigged WAS crap in them. Enough said, ANY marker with ANY board can be setup to get a few "extra" shots in there.
__________________
DISTURBED
Black/Blue DM5 of Doom
BIG DADDY'S PAINTBALL
MY FEEDBACK
doby45 is offline  
Old 07-21-2004, 09:11 AM #58
Drewxc3
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Mass
 has been a member for 10 years
just by your statements of "the gun is strapped down to the robot so it cant bounce", i would not hold anything else you say to be credible because you obviously dont know what you're talking about, what flops said is correct, programming will repeat itself everytime, there are no variations, by your 10 pulls=9 shots result, i'd say your trigger was either set up awful or you got a bad microswitch
Drewxc3 is offline  
Old 07-21-2004, 07:34 PM #59
TEALCOBRA
ILL $630$
 
TEALCOBRA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Chi-Town
 has been a member for 10 years
Re: Maybe it only shot 9 balls....

Quote:
Originally posted by raehl
As a guy who debugs software and hardware for a living, I can assure you, software does *NOT* behave the same way all of the time, and less and less so the more it has to interact with something outside the system (like a user or robot pulling the trigger).

- Chris
He seems to think there can be variations.... I wish I knew something about the topic so I could get more involved with the technical aspect.....

Where is the scrutineer when you need him.

__________________
Team 665 - Almost Evil
TEALCOBRA is offline  
Old 07-21-2004, 07:55 PM #60
DATRUPIMPWITANIMP
www.TEAMGRAFFITI.com
 
DATRUPIMPWITANIMP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: www.TEAMGRAFFITI.com
DATRUPIMPWITANIMP is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
It all depends on how the software is written! Software can be used to make it do anything but shoot people for you!
DATRUPIMPWITANIMP is offline  
Old 07-22-2004, 08:00 PM #61
raehl
NCPA President
 
raehl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Chippewa Falls, WI
Annual Supporting Member
raehl is a Moderator
raehl is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
raehl plays in the PSP
raehl supports our troops
raehl is an NCPA National Champion
raehl plays in the APPA D5 division
"just by your statements of "the gun is strapped down to the robot so it cant bounce", i would not hold anything else you say to be credible because you obviously dont know what you're talking about, what flops said is correct, programming will repeat itself everytime, there are no variations, by your 10 pulls=9 shots result, i'd say your trigger was either set up awful or you got a bad microswitch"

And that's simply not true. Software will respond to the same input in the same way, IF there is nothing randomized in the software.

But what I mean by "software doesn't behave in the same way" is that it can be very difficult to give the software the same input, and ESPECIALLY difficult when that input is given by a non-digital mechaism. For example, if I put 2+2 into a calculator and press =, I'll get 4, every time.

Put if I push down on my bathroom scale, it's damned near impossible for me to get the same weight reading every time.

With the trigger, you're dealing with software that does not live in it's own software vacuum - it's interfacing to a mechanical system as well, including the trigger, whatever is sensing the movement of the trigger, and in this case, the robot itself.

The robot does not do EXACTLY the same thing every time it pulls the trigger - it's close, but there are slight variations, be it in force or movement or whatever. The motor heats up and it does stuff a little differently. The robot operates on the edge of a resonance frequency of the table it's mounted on. The board operates at a 10 MHz clock and takes one million clock cycles to fire a shot - but the robot pulls the trigger every 800,000 or 1,200,000 clock cycles, so depending on how it lines up, you get more or less shots.

The software is not behaving the same every time because the input to the software is different every time. In computer land, we call it "Garbage In, Garbage Out."


- Chris
__________________
Check Out Paintball on TV!

National Collegiate Paintball Association, President - http://www.ncpapaintball.com

American Paintball Players Association - www.paintball-players.org
raehl is offline  
Old 07-23-2004, 09:05 AM #62
chopper
 
 
chopper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: tx
 has been a member for 10 years
Turbulance, WAS & Tadao's are faster then stock because of faster proccesor's. They check the trigger switch more time per second and read the eyes faster then stock boards is my understanding of why/how they are faster.
chopper is offline  
Old 07-23-2004, 09:13 AM #63
turbulenceBACK
Turbulence Captain
 
turbulenceBACK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: San Diego
 has been a member for 10 years
But if the stock board fires the gun every time the trigger is pulled, then you cannot make any upgrade that fires faster without being illegal.

Even if you have software that checks the trigger switch faster, wouldnt it make sense that the ONLY way to make a gun shoot faster legally, would be pull the trigger faster? You can check the trigger switch a million times a sec, but one trigger pull is only supposed to be one ball.
__________________
Turbulence Paintball Team - See you next time!

www.poopegifts.com
Play Scrabble Online
Play Bejeweled 2 Online
turbulenceBACK is offline  
 




Posting Rules
Forum Jump