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Old 02-23-2010, 09:43 PM #1
b4aftr
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I Fail at Timing!

Already posted on customcockers, but figured I might get some additional support from the PBN A/C gurus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
Stop laughing and try to help a fellow A/C guy out!

I have searched countless times for this problem, but I have come up short or I am just searching for the wrong thing!

I have played with the LPR and the Hammer Lug, and I "think" my backblock and 3-way rod are set correctly.

With no gas, I can cock the hammer (correctly catches the sear) and fire the gun and it looks/feels like it is firing and actuating the rod at the right times.

But with gas..

I cock it before gasing, no leaks, backblock is forward, cocking rod is back. I fire it, the gun shoots and the backblock goes all the way back a tad past the breach (enough the cock the hammer), then forward. Thing is that the cocking rod/hammer is not catching the sear at all when firing. I have played with the lug, but it still fails to catch. I have not checked the sear spring, but it worked fine before I changed the pnuematics...

Thanks in advance, and stop laughing!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
I currently have it set to fire right before the 3 way actuates. So using the oval in the trigger plate, the gun fires right before the 3 way rod gets pulled by the trigger plate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
Yeah I have tried firing slow and fast. I havent checked the springs because it worked perfectly before I change the pnues (thats what I get for messing with something that wasn't broke)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
Yeah I kinda thought the same as you, but when I cock it manually I am doing it by pulling the backblock, bolt and rod back. When the rod is cocked and back at rest, there is around 1/8 of the bolt that you can see, but the bolt does clear the breech when it is pulled all the way (manually and with the ram)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
Yeah I read that too, so I tried it. I let the screw all the way out till the BB didn't move then slowly increased it....no luck there either.

FYI guys.

EVO cocker
DBL trigger slider
Palmer MicroRock
Palmer 3 Way
CCM Ram
Everything else is stock from Belsales.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
I have tried to take the lug as far down as I can, but I will try again.
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Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks View Post
Yeah I have started with no air and worked my way up on the LPR and I think well above what it should be.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:37 PM #2
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my super bolt did the same thing after an hour of play, could never figure it out, so I pumped it.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:40 PM #3
b4aftr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
my super bolt did the same thing after an hour of play, could never figure it out, so I pumped it.
Ha, well not looking to pump it, so hopefully I can get it worked out!
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Old 02-24-2010, 01:40 AM #4
"T-MAC"
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check the sear and sear spring to make sure all is well. The sear might be worn enough to slip
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Old 02-24-2010, 02:00 AM #5
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I had this problem on the 2k I just picked up. Took me a couple days, but I finally figured it out.

I'd cock the gun, gas it up, pull the trigger, and I couldn't get the sear to catch consistantly. It would catch maybe 1/4 of the time I pulled the trigger. I tried adjusting the hammer lug down as far as I could to no avail.

After thinking about it, I realized that I had set the timing rod to actuate the ram too far back on the trigger pull. The problem wasn't with the hammer lug height, it was that as I released the trigger the ram was actuating forward before the trigger moved forward enough to allow the sear to come up enough to catch the hammer lug.

Solution: Adjust the hammer lug up as far as possible without allowing the gun to fire with the safety on. Adjust the timing rod so that the ram actuates just after the gun fires, but not close enough to cause blow-back in the feed tube. This will ensure a short, consistant trigger pull.

Of course, all of this assumes that the hammer lug and sear are undamaged and functioning properly.
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:42 AM #6
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If starfurys idea doesnt work, and everything you have said is what we have to go with, I would guess your problem is in your back block, since your problem is that the gun is not cocking. Manually pulling the block back, and having the ram do it are two different things. If your cycling pressure is on par, the ram should be operating without much of an issue. Is the ram arm properly aligned? If it is off, that would cause a problem as the ram actuates it may begin to bind. IF that is good, then the next problem to tackle is the back block. When I set my block, I set it first tight to the body, then give it full rotation back, hovering it just off the body. The cocking rod needs to be securely screwed in, and that nut on the back, try turning it in, one turn at a time. do you have the rubber bumper that should be on it? Take notice of how far you are pulling the backblock back by having someone measure it, then air it up, do the same thing. I use adjustable cocking rods. If your measurements are the same, then your issue lies in the mechanics of the gun.

Think about what the gun is supposed to do. When your gun is at rest, the sear is holding the hammer, the ram keeps the back block back, and the cocking rod is pulled back to hook the hammer. Once you pull the trigger, the hammer is released, a spring pushes it into the valve pin, releasing the propellant. Simultaneously, the ram switches operation via the 3 way, and pulls the back block forward with the bolt closing the breach from the feed, and in time to catch the air released by the hammer into the bolt and shoots the ball down the barrel. If you continue to hold that trigger in, the ram keeps the bolt forward, the hammer has done its job and is idle.

When you release that trigger, the 3way, redirects the air allowing the ram to push the back block back to "recock" the gun. This opens the chamber for another ball to drop, BUT it also brings with it the hammer to be reset via the sear, by means of the cocking rod. If you are not "recocking", yet you can manually cock the gun every time, in this action is your problem.

This operation is identical for every cocker, it is what gives an autococker its name.

I am not trying to insult anyones intelligence with this post, but sometimes just thinking through the entire operation, it will help you diagnose and isolate the problem in the operation.

just my thoughts
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:40 PM #7
b4aftr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarfuryTH View Post
I had this problem on the 2k I just picked up. Took me a couple days, but I finally figured it out.

I'd cock the gun, gas it up, pull the trigger, and I couldn't get the sear to catch consistantly. It would catch maybe 1/4 of the time I pulled the trigger. I tried adjusting the hammer lug down as far as I could to no avail.

After thinking about it, I realized that I had set the timing rod to actuate the ram too far back on the trigger pull. The problem wasn't with the hammer lug height, it was that as I released the trigger the ram was actuating forward before the trigger moved forward enough to allow the sear to come up enough to catch the hammer lug.

Solution: Adjust the hammer lug up as far as possible without allowing the gun to fire with the safety on. Adjust the timing rod so that the ram actuates just after the gun fires, but not close enough to cause blow-back in the feed tube. This will ensure a short, consistant trigger pull.

Of course, all of this assumes that the hammer lug and sear are undamaged and functioning properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MBP shooter View Post
If starfurys idea doesnt work, and everything you have said is what we have to go with, I would guess your problem is in your back block, since your problem is that the gun is not cocking. Manually pulling the block back, and having the ram do it are two different things. If your cycling pressure is on par, the ram should be operating without much of an issue. Is the ram arm properly aligned? If it is off, that would cause a problem as the ram actuates it may begin to bind. IF that is good, then the next problem to tackle is the back block. When I set my block, I set it first tight to the body, then give it full rotation back, hovering it just off the body. The cocking rod needs to be securely screwed in, and that nut on the back, try turning it in, one turn at a time. do you have the rubber bumper that should be on it? Take notice of how far you are pulling the backblock back by having someone measure it, then air it up, do the same thing. I use adjustable cocking rods. If your measurements are the same, then your issue lies in the mechanics of the gun.

Think about what the gun is supposed to do. When your gun is at rest, the sear is holding the hammer, the ram keeps the back block back, and the cocking rod is pulled back to hook the hammer. Once you pull the trigger, the hammer is released, a spring pushes it into the valve pin, releasing the propellant. Simultaneously, the ram switches operation via the 3 way, and pulls the back block forward with the bolt closing the breach from the feed, and in time to catch the air released by the hammer into the bolt and shoots the ball down the barrel. If you continue to hold that trigger in, the ram keeps the bolt forward, the hammer has done its job and is idle.

When you release that trigger, the 3way, redirects the air allowing the ram to push the back block back to "recock" the gun. This opens the chamber for another ball to drop, BUT it also brings with it the hammer to be reset via the sear, by means of the cocking rod. If you are not "recocking", yet you can manually cock the gun every time, in this action is your problem.

This operation is identical for every cocker, it is what gives an autococker its name.

I am not trying to insult anyones intelligence with this post, but sometimes just thinking through the entire operation, it will help you diagnose and isolate the problem in the operation.

just my thoughts
I will try the above methods as soon as I get some air on Friday. Thanks for the ideas guys!
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Old 02-24-2010, 11:40 PM #8
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I had this problem in my Superbolt when I switched hammers. I put a heavy tungsten hammer in with a rounded lug, and it just wouldnt catch consistently.

I would check the condition of the sear spring, the hammer lug, and then try to tighten up the timing and that should get you going...good luck.
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Old 02-26-2010, 09:25 AM #9
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Make sure your cocking rod is screwed in all the way.
If so, try shortening it a bit.
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:43 PM #10
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I was thinking the oppisite of mike, if the cocking rod is set too short it will cause the lug not to catch as well. The Belsales roller sear is heavily polished and made to be used with a square lug and a pretty heavy sear spring as well.
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Old 02-26-2010, 09:52 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney View Post
I was thinking the oppisite of mike, if the cocking rod is set too short it will cause the lug not to catch as well...
Wrong...If the cocking rod is too long, the hammer does not get pulled back far enough for the lug to catch the sear. A shorter cocking rod = hammer pulled farther back.

Think about it...if the cocking rod were really long, the hammer wouldn't move at all. That's why if the cocking rod gets loose (unscrews, making it effectivly longer) the lug will stop catching.
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:42 PM #12
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You are right Mike, but if the rod is too short the ram will pull the hammer to far past the sear. This puts more spring tension on it and it will often slam past the sear on the way froward.
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Old 03-01-2010, 10:24 AM #13
master2003
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I had the same problem this past weekend, ended up that the trigger was sticking on the return stroke. The set screw that keeps the trigger pin in was too tight. I loosened it up a bit and it worked fine. You may have some gunk inside your frame or you could have a weak return spring.
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