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Old 02-22-2010, 03:03 PM #1
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Urgent Safety Warnings/Info regarding "SA-8"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric from Tiberius
It has come to our attention that Pepperball Technologies has released for sale to the public the SA-8 pistol which our company, Tiberius Arms manufactured for them based on their specifications. In the interest of public safety and customer satisfaction we felt it important to provide the general public with additional information about this product. First, it is important to understand that this product was never intended for any recreational activity and was not designed to fire .68 paintballs. This product was produced and sold only for use as a less than lethal weapon. It is also important to note that while this weapon appears similar to our Tiberius 8 (aka. T8, Tac 8, Tag 8) paintball pistol, internally there are numerous differences which makes their use in painball dangerous. After receiving and closely analyzing the SA-8, many of those who have purchased them have noticed that many parts are different. Many of the SA-8’s were built with a non-adjustable regulator and all were built with a fixed pressure relief valve. This means the SA-8 is missing key safety components designed for the sport of paintball. We realize that paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8 didn’t realize that what they were purchasing wasn’t suitable for paintball. Safety is of primary importance in the sport of paintball and manufacturer’s, distributor’s and player’s all have a responsibility to insure the equipment they are selling and/or using functions in a safe manner. Player’s attempting to refinish or rework an SA-8 for use in the sport of paintball are putting themselves and other player’s at risk. Tiberius Arms wants to do our part to ensure that these products are not used in the sport of paintball. Accordingly we will be working with field owners so they can recognize Tiberius manufactured less lethal products that are not suitable for use in the sport of paintball. In addition we would like to offer all of those who purchased an SA-8 Bundle with the intention of using it for paintball the opportunity to return said kit to us in exchange for a $100 Tiberius Arms gift certificate. Those with questions should contact Eric Bratten with Tiberius Arms at eric@tiberiusarms.com


Best regards,
Eric Bratten
VP Sales & Marketing
Tiberius Arms
260.478.2500 ext. 235
260.572.2210 fax
Eric@tiberiusarms.com
Tiberius Arms

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric from Tiberius
Updated SA-8 Information
First I would like to thank the many members that supported our efforts to help player's who may have purchased an SA-8. Those who really know us realize that our motive on this is not profit, it is safety. Thanks as well to all of you have have contacted us to return these products, the efforts to promote safe play are commendable and the spirit that help further our sport.

Second, it was not my intention to post the safety warning and walk away as though that would be the end of it. As one of the members who called the office noted I was out of the office, actually on vacation with my family at Disney World. The fact is I was notified of this issue several hours before getting on a plane. I contacted Pepperball to make sure they knew who their $99 price was attracting, paintball players, not those interested in a less lethal launcher. Since they weren't acting on the matter I pulled time from my family to try and help a situation that was obviously snowballing fast.

Third, Tiberius Arms did not sell these products to any retail customer, Pepperball did, so we aren't trying to cover any liability issues we are trying to address a legitimate safety concern.

I will be honest, I have not read through all of the posts so I apologize if I don't address every question posed but I will do my best to cover the major/recurring issues that have been raised.

First, the SA-8’s are not paintball markers, they are Pepperball launchers, and despite what many are posting there is a big difference. While paintball markers without overpressure relief valves may exist they do not operate in the same manner as our markers. Most lack regulators all together and are therefore designed to operate using CO2 full pressure, our system is not. Most markers featuring a regulator are designed with either a relief valve, or a failure point (that is to say an o-ring/solenoid gasket, etc. that is designed to give out before over pressurization becomes a safety issue), the SA8 lacks this feature. It is important to note that many SA8's may be able to be adjusted to below 300fps, however in the event of a regulator o-ring failure they lack the ability to vent and maintain a velocity that is safe for paintball. {Note: Many have sited the Automag which is a decent example, most didn't realize the have a pressure relief (probably because they didn't want it tampered with). As many who have used an Automag with CO2, or turn the velocity way up can attest they begin leaking out of the back of the regulator, the SA8 does not.} I am not going to debate every form of every marker ever made, even if other markers were/are capable of this failure it does not mean we believe it is safe and most importantly they don't have our name on them.

Second, could we try to manufacture a relief assembly as a drop in replacement, yes, do we feel that is a prudent course of action, no, and here is why. First, the SA-8 Pepperball launchers are etched “Not for recreational use” and were colored in blue and orange (known training and less lethal color choices of the police and military) for a reason. If we make exceptions to this because paintballers thought they found a deal that was too good to be true (and was), we would be doing all of the agencies who use our less lethal equipment a disservice. Additionally we would be telling fields that saw the “Not for recreational use” warning to ignore it, a very dangerous precedent to set. We would also further the incorrect assumption that less lethal weapons can be safely used for paintball. Many are right about the fact that we could try to make this for very little and sell it for a lot to those who are stuck with a purchase that isn’t what they thought it was...this should show our motive is not profit. Despite many peoples assumptions we didn't over extend ourselves by selling to Pepperball, they have chosen to sell these products at a huge loss, which is there right.

Likewise our effort isn’t to reward paintball player’s who purchased SA-8’s, as it has become clear to me that most knew that it was not be a wise decision. We are not demanding anyone return their SA-8, they are a wonderful product for home defense or law enforcement applications. What we are doing is making sure that players who go out to participate in a fun day of play at their local field aren’t subject to unnecessary risk as a result of another player’s careless “good deal”. So many have asked if we are going to "tell fields about these"? Yes, we have a professional and ethical obligation to do so to protect players and field owners. We make no apologies about this point and are amazed the risks people are willing to take to I have experienced a lot of “too good to be true(s)” in my time and can’t remember one where I was offered the chance to get out of that bad decision with nearly as much as we have tried to offer paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8.

As a result of speaking with many SA8 purchasers, reading these forums, and attempting to provide as many opt outs as possible we have decided to offer a $50 gift certificate for those wishing to return only the SA8 launcher. As most have noted the magazines alone are worth $100, so this provides a potentially better fit for many.

Gift Certificates are redeemable directly through Tiberius Arms (all products priced at MAP). I will be posting a complete list of products/prices shortly.

I respect that not everyone will agree with our efforts, or believe our motives but as a company we are really trying to do an honorable thing.
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Old 02-22-2010, 03:35 PM #2
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Ah, welcome to last week. Didn't know it needed a sticky, though.

Still not buying into it, Tiberius. Unless they can prove by a third party that these guns are "not safe" (i.e., gun blows up, catastrophic failure), then I'd consider it. It's gonna take a Toyota-type of danger for me to even think of sending my gun. The current offer of a trade is not worth my time.
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Old 02-22-2010, 04:45 PM #3
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Yea a few days late and a whole bunch of dollars short....
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Old 02-22-2010, 10:11 PM #4
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I really doubt anyone will return these markers for a gift certificate. The only way I would do this is for a 1 to 1 even swap. I'd be surprised if even a single person will do this.

You need to work on another solution. Perhaps a retrofit kit that could be installed at dealers.

By screaming to fields that the sky is falling, you're not only putting all paintball manufacturers at risk, you're putting the whole aftermarket industry at risk. What's to keep another manufacturer to state that aftermarket barrels can't be used? It's a slippery slope.

A lot of smart people are now dissecting the SA-8 to determine if there really is a danger, or if they're as safe as any other marker. If time tells that they're actually safe, then it will just make your company look bad.

You'll be the company that cried wolf. Just like the old fable though, next time there's a real danger...people will brush it off as yet another marketing ploy.
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Old 02-23-2010, 12:23 AM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaan View Post
I really doubt anyone will return these markers for a gift certificate. The only way I would do this is for a 1 to 1 even swap. I'd be surprised if even a single person will do this.

You need to work on another solution. Perhaps a retrofit kit that could be installed at dealers.

By screaming to fields that the sky is falling, you're not only putting all paintball manufacturers at risk, you're putting the whole aftermarket industry at risk. What's to keep another manufacturer to state that aftermarket barrels can't be used? It's a slippery slope.

A lot of smart people are now dissecting the SA-8 to determine if there really is a danger, or if they're as safe as any other marker. If time tells that they're actually safe, then it will just make your company look bad.

You'll be the company that cried wolf. Just like the old fable though, next time there's a real danger...people will brush it off as yet another marketing ploy.
This is right on the money. Is there any solid proof that these guns are unsafe? Proof that doesn't include just the manufacturer's word, since that word could very well be influenced by loss of sales rather than genuine concern?

I haven't seen it yet.
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Old 02-23-2010, 04:14 PM #6
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New Tiberius SA-8 Soultion from Eric Tiberius

Tiberius has come out with another solution for the SA-8 issue

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/p...formation.html

Last edited by turtlec56 : 02-24-2010 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 02-24-2010, 05:08 AM #7
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Cant get in, some kind of problem with the server. Tell us what solution it was so we can know.
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Old 02-24-2010, 05:14 AM #8
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If it shoots 300 FPS, and its a .68 ball. Then its a paintball gun to me.
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Old 02-24-2010, 08:59 AM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMedievalMan View Post
Cant get in, some kind of problem with the server. Tell us what solution it was so we can know.
Updated SA-8 Information
First I would like to thank the many members that supported our efforts to help player's who may have purchased an SA-8. Those who really know us realize that our motive on this is not profit, it is safety. Thanks as well to all of you have have contacted us to return these products, the efforts to promote safe play are commendable and the spirit that help further our sport.

Second, it was not my intention to post the safety warning and walk away as though that would be the end of it. As one of the members who called the office noted I was out of the office, actually on vacation with my family at Disney World. The fact is I was notified of this issue several hours before getting on a plane. I contacted Pepperball to make sure they knew who their $99 price was attracting, paintball players, not those interested in a less lethal launcher. Since they weren't acting on the matter I pulled time from my family to try and help a situation that was obviously snowballing fast.

Third, Tiberius Arms did not sell these products to any retail customer, Pepperball did, so we aren't trying to cover any liability issues we are trying to address a legitimate safety concern.

I will be honest, I have not read through all of the posts so I apologize if I don't address every question posed but I will do my best to cover the major/recurring issues that have been raised.

First, the SA-8’s are not paintball markers, they are Pepperball launchers, and despite what many are posting there is a big difference. While paintball markers without overpressure relief valves may exist they do not operate in the same manner as our markers. Most lack regulators all together and are therefore designed to operate using CO2 full pressure, our system is not. Most markers featuring a regulator are designed with either a relief valve, or a failure point (that is to say an o-ring/solenoid gasket, etc. that is designed to give out before over pressurization becomes a safety issue), the SA8 lacks this feature. It is important to note that many SA8's may be able to be adjusted to below 300fps, however in the event of a regulator o-ring failure they lack the ability to vent and maintain a velocity that is safe for paintball. {Note: Many have sited the Automag which is a decent example, most didn't realize the have a pressure relief (probably because they didn't want it tampered with). As many who have used an Automag with CO2, or turn the velocity way up can attest they begin leaking out of the back of the regulator, the SA8 does not.} I am not going to debate every form of every marker ever made, even if other markers were/are capable of this failure it does not mean we believe it is safe and most importantly they don't have our name on them.

Second, could we try to manufacture a relief assembly as a drop in replacement, yes, do we feel that is a prudent course of action, no, and here is why. First, the SA-8 Pepperball launchers are etched “Not for recreational use” and were colored in blue and orange (known training and less lethal color choices of the police and military) for a reason. If we make exceptions to this because paintballers thought they found a deal that was too good to be true (and was), we would be doing all of the agencies who use our less lethal equipment a disservice. Additionally we would be telling fields that saw the “Not for recreational use” warning to ignore it, a very dangerous precedent to set. We would also further the incorrect assumption that less lethal weapons can be safely used for paintball. Many are right about the fact that we could try to make this for very little and sell it for a lot to those who are stuck with a purchase that isn’t what they thought it was...this should show our motive is not profit. Despite many peoples assumptions we didn't over extend ourselves by selling to Pepperball, they have chosen to sell these products at a huge loss, which is there right.

Likewise our effort isn’t to reward paintball player’s who purchased SA-8’s, as it has become clear to me that most knew that it was not be a wise decision. We are not demanding anyone return their SA-8, they are a wonderful product for home defense or law enforcement applications. What we are doing is making sure that players who go out to participate in a fun day of play at their local field aren’t subject to unnecessary risk as a result of another player’s careless “good deal”. So many have asked if we are going to "tell fields about these"? Yes, we have a professional and ethical obligation to do so to protect players and field owners. We make no apologies about this point and are amazed the risks people are willing to take to I have experienced a lot of “too good to be true(s)” in my time and can’t remember one where I was offered the chance to get out of that bad decision with nearly as much as we have tried to offer paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8.

As a result of speaking with many SA8 purchasers, reading these forums, and attempting to provide as many opt outs as possible we have decided to offer a $50 gift certificate for those wishing to return only the SA8 launcher. As most have noted the magazines alone are worth $100, so this provides a potentially better fit for many.

Gift Certificates are redeemable directly through Tiberius Arms (all products priced at MAP). I will be posting a complete list of products/prices shortly.

I respect that not everyone will agree with our efforts, or believe our motives but as a company we are really trying to do an honorable thing.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 2010 MAP Pricing.pdf (158.8 KB, 103 views)
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:18 AM #10
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Cool, thanks. Although I tried it now, and it looks like it works again.
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:16 AM #11
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guys they have worked out a 2nd option for return (100 gift card for the kit or 50 for the gun only) and they have very good reasons for stating the gun is unsafe. You are not going to get a 1 to 1 trade. Pepperball.com sold you a LTL gun at $99, not Tiberius. They will not hand you a $240 marker because somebody else sold you something SIMILAR a lot cheaper. No manufacturer or company out there would bc its simply not the same product (close maybe but still not the same). If you don't want to turn yours in, thats fine. You can choose thats the beauty of the system. Use it for a LTL launcher, gut it for parts for a T8, whatever.

What you guys should look at here is Tiberius is taking steps that they really don't have to to serve the players and the industry. Most of you guys knew you weren't buying a paintball marker. You knew it said "not safe for paintball" on it. But you bought it anyway. Its the customers fault for buying something they knew was not intended for their use and Tiberius is trying to help the player fix their own mistake. Its a gesture that speaks volumes about Tiberius.

And if you still aren't convinced, ask anybody that has dealt with Tiberius Arms reps (like Eric or Pete) directly and we will all tell you, these guys ROCK at customer service. No question, without a doubt. If you want a testamonial, pm me and i'll tell you all about it.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:09 PM #12
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If a lack of bleed valve was such a concern. Then why did they design it this way for cops to handle? Clearly they thought it was alright for them to carry these around in riot situations just fine. And not have a finger blown off due to "over pressurization".
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:43 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMedievalMan View Post
If a lack of bleed valve was such a concern. Then why did they design it this way for cops to handle? Clearly they thought it was alright for them to carry these around in riot situations just fine. And not have a finger blown off due to "over pressurization".
It's not about structural integrity, it's about velocity.

A cop fires a pepperball at a rioter at 450fps, well it's better than a 9mm at 1150fps. Sure the guy will get injured, but that's the point. Injure, but not kill.

A player shoots a paintball at a fellow player at 450fps, well that could cause unwanted injuries. I sure as heck don't show up at the field expecting a hit that hard. And if a gun can be set to 300fps at the chrono, but creep up to 450fps during the game, well someone might be tempted to blame the manufacture. A normal T8/8.1/9/4 won't do this.
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Old 02-26-2010, 08:46 AM #14
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You have a point there. But I still dont believe these things can "creep up" like that. But who knows? I guess when I get mine, I will do some testing to find out for myself.
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Old 02-26-2010, 10:38 AM #15
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the biggest issue is when and if the regulator oring fails or dislodges there is nothing to vent that excess pressure and the next shot will be EXTREMELY hot. The real deal isn't about velocity creep (although that is a concern), the biggest issue is an instant and sudden jump in velocity to an unsafe speed.

If you are shooting 285 and have a velocity spike to 315 or creep up to 308 during the day, hey that happens. And if you set the relief valve on the T8 properly much over that and the valve should actuate. But if you are shooting 285 all day then suddenly the next shot or shots out of the gun are shooting at 450 that is a major safety risk.
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Old 02-27-2010, 02:49 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by de-evoproject View Post
the biggest issue is when and if the regulator oring fails or dislodges there is nothing to vent that excess pressure and the next shot will be EXTREMELY hot. The real deal isn't about velocity creep (although that is a concern), the biggest issue is an instant and sudden jump in velocity to an unsafe speed.

If you are shooting 285 and have a velocity spike to 315 or creep up to 308 during the day, hey that happens. And if you set the relief valve on the T8 properly much over that and the valve should actuate. But if you are shooting 285 all day then suddenly the next shot or shots out of the gun are shooting at 450 that is a major safety risk.
really, I have never heard of any gun having a compleet reg failure. there are already plans on mcbrown.com as to how you can build an adjustable releif valve. if you want to. I am going right now to put them in the "tips for sa-8 owners" thread here.
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Old 02-28-2010, 09:29 AM #17
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Awesome, I figures someone would do something like this eventually. I look forward to see what they have in mind.
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Old 02-28-2010, 01:53 PM #18
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I already posted it in the" tips for sa-8 owners "thread.
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Old 02-28-2010, 08:19 PM #19
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Originally Posted by TheMedievalMan View Post
You have a point there. But I still dont believe these things can "creep up" like that. But who knows? I guess when I get mine, I will do some testing to find out for myself.
While I understand where you are coming from, I also think that if it fires under 300 FPS then it's safe, but with CO2 these LTL weapons can creep up.

Normal Operating PSI for SA-8 is around 300 PSI


When I shook the gun in the holster position (like running with it holstered). The PSI did go up to close to 550 PSI.


Now when I was testing the marker with a remote line, I had some very consistent shots with CO2. Liquid CO2 getting into the Automag styled system doesn't work out too well.
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Old 03-01-2010, 09:14 AM #20
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That is an excellent idea, adding the gauge like that. I should try that with mine. I have a tap to make threads. I should put a mini gauge on mine. That way I can see if it starts "creeping up" on me.
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Old 03-01-2010, 07:57 PM #21
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Better off building a relief valve, but yes that does help you know when to eject the mag to release the pressure .
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