Question about "kinds"

wavesport001 · 12-18-2009, 09:38 AM

If god created many "kinds" of organisms, and those "kinds" are incapable of changing into other "kinds", then what "kind" is Archaeopteryx?

OA paintball · 12-18-2009, 09:42 AM

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Aves
Order: Archaeopterygiformes
Family: Archaeopterygidae
Genus: Archaeopteryx

or... im sort of lost on your question lol but i hope that helps

270KIDZ · 12-18-2009, 12:42 PM

care to elaborate?

hsilman · 12-18-2009, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavesport001

If god created many "kinds" of organisms, and those "kinds" are incapable of changing into other "kinds", then what "kind" is Archaeopteryx?

a reptibirdicon of course.

wavesport001 · 12-19-2009, 06:08 AM

Is it bird "kind" or reptile "kind"?

OA paintball · 12-19-2009, 06:53 AM

Class: Aves

'tis a bird my friend.

Crede777 · 12-19-2009, 07:32 AM

Technically birds (aves) are considered part of Reptilia now.

Aves is a sub-clade of Coelurosauria which is a sub-clade of Dinosauria which is a sub-clade of Reptilia.
http://tolweb.org/Coelurosauria/15769

wavesport001 · 12-19-2009, 09:07 AM

Right but my question is really aimed at creationists who claim that god created different kinds of organisms and that one kind can't become another kind. Archaeopteryx has as many avian features as reptilian features, so which kind is it?

vanquish_v12 · 12-19-2009, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavesport001

Right but my question is really aimed at creationists who claim that god created different kinds of organisms and that one kind can't become another kind. Archaeopteryx has as many avian features as reptilian features, so which kind is it?

Neither. Archaeopteryx is obviously just a fossil put in the ground by satan to try to test our faith and make us stray from the path of god.

BTW, there are people out there who actually believe this. srsly.

Crede777 · 12-19-2009, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavesport001

Right but my question is really aimed at creationists who claim that god created different kinds of organisms and that one kind can't become another kind. Archaeopteryx has as many avian features as reptilian features, so which kind is it?

You're assuming that God created just a reptile "kind" and just a bird "kind." I don't see why the kinds have to consist of such large groups. Couldn't "kinds" be very, very specific and there just be a ton of them?

cryptic.paintball · 12-19-2009, 07:34 PM

Kinds = a term used by apologists to keep their faith in check.

RamboPreacher · 12-20-2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cryptic.paintball

Kinds = a term used by apologists to keep their faith in check, as understood by non-believers.

fixed.

hsilman · 12-20-2009, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RamboPreacher

fixed.

by non-literal creationists you mean. I have no problem with gap theory, personally.

Flying_Dutchman · 12-20-2009, 07:10 PM

I'm gonna be a nominalist on this one (or at the very least a conceptualist), Hsilman. Don't you think that's the way to go when referring to large classes?

I mean whether we call this that has reptilian and avian properties a reptile or a bird is pretty ambigious.

RamboPreacher · 12-23-2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hsilman

by non-literal creationists you mean. I have no problem with gap theory, personally.

I am a "literalist", but depending on definition, I suppose. I also lean to a gap-type theory. kinds are esentially a broader definition than the modern "species". it is what it is. it isn't a theological-conspiracy.

wavesport001 · 12-24-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

kinds are esentially a broader definition than the modern "species"

How much broader? Where do you draw the line? Has anyone actually specified what separates one kind from another or do you just leave it at a general definition?

RamboPreacher · 12-25-2009, 10:58 AM

The Bible doesn't specify. it isn't a science-book, never was. it is a theological book. a kind is a kind. it is not and never was supposed to equate with species. it's just not that important.

akatch79 · 01-07-2010, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanquish_v12

Neither. Archaeopteryx is obviously just a fossil put in the ground by satan to try to test our faith and make us stray from the path of god.

BTW, there are people out there who actually believe this. srsly.

This is a truthy answer.

Crede777 · 01-08-2010, 02:39 PM

Not even science books define what separates one kind from another. There are numerous different species definitions and none has proven to be without its problems.

There's the biological definition (if two organisms can mate and produce viable offspring, they are of the same species), but that has a problem with ring species. Ring species are species which live in a ring around a large geographic barrier such as a lake or a mountain. It sometimes happens that one population of organisms can mate with the populations directly to its left and right, but cannot mate with organisms on the opposite side of the mountain or lake. So does that mean they are the same species as they can mate with the group to their right, which can mate to the group on its right, etc. Or are they different species because the group cannot mate with populations on the other side?

There's the phylogenetic definition (species are defined by their genetic make up and are arbitrarily grouped based upon genetic relationships). This is currently the most empirical method, but it is extremely time consuming, relies on arbitrary boundaries that set how different something can be genetically before it's a new species, and goes against commonly held beliefs (e.g. Chimps and Bonobos are far closer to humans genetically than they are to gorillas. Hence, it is highly likely that they are a sub-species of Homosapien but are not considered so because they have not traditionally been viewed as such).

Then there's the phenotypic definition (based upon looks and observable traits). This is the most archaic method of taxonomy but is prone to many errors (e.g. Whales are not fish but they have flippers and live in water).