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Old 12-05-2009, 09:07 PM #64
MonkeyWithaGun
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Another Ex.
If someone gives you a CD that they listened to but don't anymore, they never made a copy of it, they never ripped... etc. They just give it to you.

A.) You got something that had a price associated with it
B.) You're not paying for it.
If you want to give someone your legal possessions, thats your own business. Just like if I give you my car.

How is this not making any sense to you joe?

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And as someone else pointed out, there's also a flaw with the idea of an Ipod and paying for all the music that goes on it. If kids were to buy a 160GB ipod and pay for all their music, that's $40,000 which isn't really possible. Even a 4GB Shuffle is 1000 songs, that's still $1,000
So now your saying because my ipode can hold $40,000 worth of music I should get it for free...

My cars gas tank can hold 100 gallons of gas should I get my gas for free???

See joe it is black and white.

The sooner you admit that it is stealing the soon you can get on the road to recovery.

But whatever makes you sleep better at night.

-patrick
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Old 12-05-2009, 09:22 PM #65
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I've never said that it wasn't stealing... you're taking things out of context...

I'm saying there's a difference between stealing a car and downloading a song and you keep saying there isn't a difference. That... If you get something without paying for it, it's stealing. And I disagree with that...

And there is "no road to recovery"... I support small, local bands and the paintball film industry. Because they need it, I enjoy watching paintball films but if the companies go away I won't have anymore films to enjoy. Hollywood isn't going away, if I download a movie they're not going to know the difference. I support the small, local bands so that they can keep doing what they're doing and make it big. Once they've made it big they don't need my money anymore. They won't sign an album you bought off their myspace anymore, they won't give a **** who you are. At that point, I don't feel they need my support because if they're at that level they're already making millions.

I'm done arguing... I've never said it wasn't stealing, I was just trying to get you to understand that there is a difference.
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Old 12-05-2009, 09:41 PM #66
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i steal everything from mwag. all the movies..everything
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Old 12-05-2009, 09:45 PM #67
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I'm done arguing... I've never said it wasn't stealing
Am glad we got that out of the way... Joe your OK buddy

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Old 12-05-2009, 10:51 PM #68
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lol but if someone bought a cd copied the songs to the computer and started passing it down the street, and it made its way over the world it wouldnt be stealing (obviously not possible just saying), but if someone buys it and uploads it to the net, the same result will happen and its stealing. sharing is caring!
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Old 12-06-2009, 12:15 PM #69
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Originally Posted by Blazestorm2 View Post
I'm done arguing... I've never said it wasn't stealing, I was just trying to get you to understand that there is a difference.
Is it a justifiable difference, Joe? Does the difference make one OK and the other not?

If so, please explain how.
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Old 12-06-2009, 12:23 PM #70
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I never said it was OK either...

The entire time I'm just trying to clarify the difference between the two. Stealing a CD from the store is not the equivalent of downloading an album, and you're blind if you can't see the difference.

Yes it is "stealing", yes it is "wrong" if you want to keep it in absolutes, but it's still different than stealing from a store.
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Old 12-06-2009, 12:29 PM #71
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What about the difference makes it a difference worth contemplating? Especially if the end result is still pretty cut and dry?
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Old 12-06-2009, 12:34 PM #72
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Obviously people see a difference, otherwise people wouldn't be downloading music. People who download music are not going to start stealing CD's from the store if they couldn't download music anymore. They'll simply pay for music or go back to listening to the radio... It's publicly accepted to download music. Speeding is technically illegal too, yet it's publicly accepted.

You can ask anyone on the street if taking a CD from the store is the same thing as downloading the album. They will disagree... because it's not the same...

I don't know why you want to keep this going, it's not going to change my opinion or yours.
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Old 12-06-2009, 01:20 PM #73
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I'm just trying to understand yours.

The speeding example is a good one.
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Old 12-06-2009, 01:45 PM #74
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Originally Posted by Blazestorm2 View Post
Obviously people see a difference, otherwise people wouldn't be downloading music. People who download music are not going to start stealing CD's from the store if they couldn't download music anymore. They'll simply pay for music or go back to listening to the radio... It's publicly accepted to download music. Speeding is technically illegal too, yet it's publicly accepted.

You can ask anyone on the street if taking a CD from the store is the same thing as downloading the album. They will disagree... because it's not the same...

I don't know why you want to keep this going, it's not going to change my opinion or yours.
In some parts of the world it's publicly accepted to use children in sweat shops... But that doesn't make it right.

Just look at what your saying joe... Just because I can get away with a crime and because everyone is doing it and because the object that I am stealing is not tangible. It now nor-longer is a crime, or in your thinking is not as much of a crime.

Sorry buddy I don't subscribe to your point of view.

-patrick
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Old 12-06-2009, 01:57 PM #75
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Where am I saying it's not a crime? You keep assuming that I'm trying to justify it, or say it's "ok"... I'm not saying it's ok, I'm saying there's a difference, I've said this over and over again.

Yes there are different levels of theft, it would be ridiculous if a kid got sent to jail if he stole a pack of gum. That's why there are different levels of theft. That's why it's a lot worse to steal a car, vs. downloading an album. I agree they're both illegal, and they're both crimes... JUST LIKE SPEEDING. There's also a difference between going 10 over the speed limit and going double the speed limit. That's why you get punished differently. You get your car towed and license suspended if you are pulled over going double the speed limit. And you get a $100 ticket if you're going 10 over... if that... but most people don't care if you're going 10 over, and most cops won't even pull you over. It is illegal, it is a crime, but nobody cares.

Just like downloading music... it's illegal, and it's a crime... but nobody cares... Yet suddenly if you steal a CD from a store, people do care... it's kind of silly how it works that way, but that's how it is...

Like I said, this isn't going to change my opinion or your's...
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Old 12-06-2009, 02:15 PM #76
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Originally Posted by Blazestorm2 View Post
I'm not saying it's ok,
Sounds like you did say that here...
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It's publicly accepted to download music.
And yes I do know that there are different penalties for different crimes. That was never the point. The point is that it is stealing, plain and simple.

-patrick
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Old 12-06-2009, 02:43 PM #77
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Even tho its stealing I really ythink companies should just lower price on itunes songs i mean you don't even have the actual cd with case and artwork.

But if they do that lets say they lower price so a song is $0.30 then 3 times as much people will buy it. So they would've just left it at .99.

In the mean time I will just enjoy the benefits of ZunePass.
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Old 12-06-2009, 02:52 PM #78
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Even tho its stealing I really ythink companies should just lower price on itunes songs i mean you don't even have the actual cd with case and artwork.

But if they do that lets say they lower price so a song is $0.30 then 3 times as much people will buy it. So they would've just left it at .99.

In the mean time I will just enjoy the benefits of ZunePass.
I think you will see the prices come down and new models will arise. Apple just acquired streaming music service Lala Media. So this may mean we will now get a subscription music service.

-patrick
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Old 12-06-2009, 03:14 PM #79
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Originally Posted by Blazestorm2 View Post
Where am I saying it's not a crime? You keep assuming that I'm trying to justify it, or say it's "ok"... I'm not saying it's ok, I'm saying there's a difference, I've said this over and over again.

Yes there are different levels of theft, it would be ridiculous if a kid got sent to jail if he stole a pack of gum. That's why there are different levels of theft. That's why it's a lot worse to steal a car, vs. downloading an album. I agree they're both illegal, and they're both crimes... JUST LIKE SPEEDING. There's also a difference between going 10 over the speed limit and going double the speed limit. That's why you get punished differently. You get your car towed and license suspended if you are pulled over going double the speed limit. And you get a $100 ticket if you're going 10 over... if that... but most people don't care if you're going 10 over, and most cops won't even pull you over. It is illegal, it is a crime, but nobody cares.

Just like downloading music... it's illegal, and it's a crime... but nobody cares... Yet suddenly if you steal a CD from a store, people do care... it's kind of silly how it works that way, but that's how it is...

Like I said, this isn't going to change my opinion or your's...
The real difference that I see now is the level of wrong assigned to these various acts. While we can agree that illegal acts have different degrees of punishments and that some acts are "more wrong" than others, I think the real disconnect is the level of stealing movies/music is a more serious act to the likes of me and Patrick than you. For me, I think of the people like Patrick or Buckfast and what effect stealing their work has. And while I don't think Kid Rock sweats each loss as much as they do, that doesn't change the act for me.

<shrug> Maybe when you have something you've made downloaded with no benefit to you, you might take the act a bit more seriously.

I will say, though, the model for buying and selling music (iow, the entire record/movie studio model) will have to undergo drastic changes to stay profitable with current technology, and that they are reaching serious dinosaur stage. I would love to see artists taking more advantage of the internet to create direct links to their fans and remove much of what labels do to artists. What happened to Destiny's Child can teach lessons about what needs to change.
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Old 12-06-2009, 04:07 PM #80
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Sounds like you did say that here...

And yes I do know that there are different penalties for different crimes. That was never the point. The point is that it is stealing, plain and simple.

-patrick
And just as you pointed out earlier, just because something is publicly accepted doesn't mean it's OK.

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The real difference that I see now is the level of wrong assigned to these various acts. While we can agree that illegal acts have different degrees of punishments and that some acts are "more wrong" than others, I think the real disconnect is the level of stealing movies/music is a more serious act to the likes of me and Patrick than you. For me, I think of the people like Patrick or Buckfast and what effect stealing their work has. And while I don't think Kid Rock sweats each loss as much as they do, that doesn't change the act for me.

<shrug> Maybe when you have something you've made downloaded with no benefit to you, you might take the act a bit more seriously.
And realize that's why I support MWAG / DerDer, because I know that it does make a difference to them. I don't even lend out my DVD's because I know my friends will just make copies of them. I've paid full price for those DVD's even though I'm friends with the guys who make them. I bought all of the Buckfast CD's, although I had to resort to the Amazon marketplace for some of them. Like I said earlier, if the people can see a direct effect of my support, and I can actually talk to the people behind the work and see what they're about then I'll pay for it. That's my personal belief...

And I do film, edit, and create my own videos, the difference is I make them free so I don't have to deal with all this. I know I can't make a living out of it so I don't even bother trying. It also helps avoid copyright issues with bands because I'm not making money off of it... so I can use this.

But if I happen to catch anyone trying to profit off my work, I would be pretty pissed. And I think that's reasonable... as I've always said that I really don't agree with people stealing to resell/profit off.
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Old 12-06-2009, 04:21 PM #81
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His music is not worth stealing.
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Old 12-06-2009, 05:13 PM #82
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Edit: Or if you have more time try http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/6223.html too.

BTW, morals are pretty subjective so arguing that seems kinda idiotic.
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Old 12-06-2009, 05:17 PM #83
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Also I think since Paintball Films/Videos are such a small market, when they do get pirated, the effect is greater than when you download music from a more mainstream artist/movie. Again not arguing the crime, just the effect it has on our little part of the world.

To throw more gas on the fire, hehe, I think the advent of small HD cams and giving people broader field access at national tournaments has diluted the product that MWAG and Derder are trying to sell. Why would a kid want to buy a Paintball film when he can watch something similar here on PBN. Granted the quality of the work will not be the same (technically or artistically) but to them they may not care.

I honestly think that for MWAG and Derder to survive they will have to reinvent themselves to a degree. The DVD days are going away quickly. They will need to think of something more to continue to exist. MWAG has the webcast, but I am not sure what Derder has up their sleeve.

Again like Joe, I gave up trying to make profit on videos. Having a full-time job and this on the side took too much work. I prefer doing it the way I do now and just as a hobby.
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Old 12-06-2009, 05:56 PM #84
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half the time i want a cd for only a few songs, so im not gonna waste 15 bucks on a cd for a few songs so im gonna keep downloading em for free
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