[master2003]

Originally Posted by lildemon

On behalf of pumpers I would like to say that not all of us are only happy playing in low volume environments... I'm generally happy wherever I get thrown into a game, although I must admit I prefer what could be called a "target-rich" environment (In other words bigger games, 10 v 10 or more)

If you couldn't tell I was being very sarcastic. I'm a pumper also. I play where ever with who ever.

[rjferguson79]

Sorry to get off topic for a sec... Chris, will you please log onto facebook and freaking add me already! lol, fb name is Joey Paintballer

[raehl]

I have over 100 pending facebook friend requests from people I don't really know personally that are not likely to be accepted. Like to maintain some aspects of my life that are not overrun with paintball.

- Chris

[02zx9r]

I just started playing paintball this past summer. A buddy's friend was having a bachelor party and I decided, why not I have always been interested in paintball. Went and had an absolute blast, I was instantly hooked. I originally went out with a hopper full and borrowed two pods from my buddy, when the games were getting down to the end of the time limit, we would just start charging, of course we got lit up but I know that is part of the game.

-I started looking for my own equipment. Bought a SP EOS and like it very much (I love the ego but there is no way I was going to drop $1K plus for my very first marker) Vforce grill, pulse hopper, Pinokio hopper, 2 tanks, etcc...

-I love playing paintball. I only wish I would have started years ago. I am 36 and just getting into paintball and I hope to be playing for years to come. I normally get the $50 and under cases as I do like to shoot paint. I mean that is the main point of this right? I play mostly rec ball. The 2 fields near me have woodsball and speedball fields (1 has spoolball) and I want to check out other fields up to 1.5 hours away just to be able to experience different fields.



-I know I am like everybody else, rent, car payment, child support, bills etc...And while I would love to be able to play at least twice a month if I had to pay $200+ to play paintball everytime I would not be able to play but maybe once every couple of months, I would probably give it up. Sucks too, cause I really enjoy it.

-But I do see your point

[lildemon]

Originally Posted by 02zx9r

I just started playing paintball this past summer. A buddy's friend was having a bachelor party and I decided, why not I have always been interested in paintball. Went and had an absolute blast, I was instantly hooked. I originally went out with a hopper full and borrowed two pods from my buddy, when the games were getting down to the end of the time limit, we would just start charging, of course we got lit up but I know that is part of the game.

-I started looking for my own equipment. Bought a SP EOS and like it very much (I love the ego but there is no way I was going to drop $1K plus for my very first marker) Vforce grill, pulse hopper, Pinokio hopper, 2 tanks, etcc...

-I love playing paintball. I only wish I would have started years ago. I am 36 and just getting into paintball and I hope to be playing for years to come. I normally get the $50 and under cases as I do like to shoot paint. I mean that is the main point of this right? I play mostly rec ball. The 2 fields near me have woodsball and speedball fields (1 has spoolball) and I want to check out other fields up to 1.5 hours away just to be able to experience different fields.



-I know I am like everybody else, rent, car payment, child support, bills etc...And while I would love to be able to play at least twice a month if I had to pay $200+ to play paintball everytime I would not be able to play but maybe once every couple of months, I would probably give it up. Sucks too, cause I really enjoy it.

-But I do see your point

Thats all cool, and as you say you've played multiple fields and found what you like, and this price structure isn't it. I don't know if you've tried low-volume fields, but that is beside the point... There will probably always be low-price / high-volume fields to cater to you, this is more something for newer/new fields to consider, and for fields who feel like they aren't profitable to consider as an alternative.

Speaking for myself, I find it unlikely that an idea like this will ever be formalized... But I do think the business model itself is going to become more common.

[02zx9r]

Yes, I forgot that the original idea was for new/start up fields.

[Shru]

Sorry but i didnt read all 65 pages about this, But i can tell you one thing, if paintball was to get that expensive to play, the sport would be dead in less than 6 months.
I only play woodsball and am 46 yrs old, just started a month ago and i buy a case of paint every 2 weeks only, so thats basically 45.00 every 2 weeks and even than i think it kinda sucks, I make enough money to afford a case a week but i don't think i need to be that trigger happy.
This idea would make it impossible for any normal middle class family to play paintball more than couple times a year i would think.
I believe that paint should be cheaper than it already is, around the 25-35 dollar range for higher end paint and maybe around 20 for mid grade level paint, than i would thank that would really make the sport take off again.
Business men are business men, always out to make the quick buck without thinking of what may happen down the road to anyone else but themselves.

I play in a woodsball field that requires no entry fee, around 25 acres of land and it is only once a week on saturdays, they have paint there if you want to buy at a reasonable price, air, and food, and in the last 5 yrs it has gotten huge.
Couple weekends ago i went and there was near 200 players playing and let me tell you one thing, when there is that many people out there, it's a blast and everyone talks about how it's the best place to play around, because it is free and they have what you need there if you need anything at all, food,bathrooms,nice people, air, some paintball accesory stuff as well.
They make some money by concessions and the air and paint they sell, you can buy a case of paintballs for about 10.00 more than it would cost normally, but it is right there if you need it, food is so cheap its not funny, all grilled right infront of you, and there are guys and girls that play that range from the age of 10-55 yrs old.

I just really got into this sport and i wish i did this 10 yrs ago, but i hope the heck the business people don't try to destroy it like they have done to just about everything else unless your rich.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Shru

Sorry but i didnt read all 65 pages about this

That's too bad. If you would have read a little more you would have found out that field owners are not interested in losing customers but on the contrary are trying to create a larger market. We are also not interested in making paintball more expensive. We are just interested in offering a less intense form of paintball to those who prefer that.

Glad to hear you are having fun and found a place you have people who enjoy a common experience with.

[generalee72]

Originally Posted by Shru

....... I believe that paint should be cheaper than it already is, around the 25-35 dollar range for higher end paint and maybe around 20 for mid grade level paint, than i would thank that would really make the sport take off again......

I second Horizons statement, but add that had you started 10 years ago you would have been here to see first hand what cheaper paint actually accomplishes.

Business men are business men, always out to make the quick buck without thinking of what may happen down the road to anyone else but themselves.

I always find these statements ironic. Short sightedness is what helped get us where we are, and the biggest contributor was cheaper paint.


The short version is that while it's true a cheaper case of paint would allow more people to try paintball out, it also allows people to shoot more paint. (Lots of players are not like you, they do not shoot lower amounts of paint because they are not trigger happy.) When the everyone is able to shoot more paint "they" will, and that creates an environment with a lot of paint being shot. So cheaper paint will allow more people to try paintball, but at the same time it will keep a large number of them from ever coming back.

[Kennard_Mafia]

Originally Posted by generalee72

The short version is that while it's true a cheaper case of paint would allow more people to try paintball out, it also allows people to shoot more paint. (Lots of players are not like you, they do not shoot lower amounts of paint because they are not trigger happy.) When the everyone is able to shoot more paint "they" will, and that creates an environment with a lot of paint being shot. So cheaper paint will allow more people to try paintball, but at the same time it will keep a large number of them from ever coming back.

ya thats true, but how fast do most rental guns shoot? and why not use billy ball mode (or just a slow rof cap) instead of charging an outrageous amount. the new players can play with new players. the experienced tourny guys will shoot massive amounts of paint at each other and that will offset the small amount shot by rentals. hence, everyone is happy

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Kennard_Mafia

ya thats true, but how fast do most rental guns shoot? and why not use billy ball mode (or just a slow rof cap) instead of charging an outrageous amount. the new players can play with new players. the experienced tourny guys will shoot massive amounts of paint at each other and that will offset the small amount shot by rentals. hence, everyone is happy

Billy Ball mode is a great way for new players to play. But realistically, if you forced everyone at your field to play Billy Ball you would have a tough time competing against a field that doesn't put restrictions on markers, like my field for instance (other than no full auto or ramping). But it isa a great add-on to most field product lines. But if you think Billy Ball is good, how much do you think fields are going to have to charge for those paintballs? They may distribute the high price between field fees, rentals and balls (or maybe even make up a "package"), but in the end, the consumer is going to have to pay much more for each time they pull the trigger than the customers who are shooting more paintballs. Dan from Delmarva Paintbal has a Billy Ball pckage. He has a different name for it, but that is what it is:

Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball

Every weekend I run games where the average player only shoots 12.5 balls.

When they call I tell them for $20 they get everything they need to play paintball for 2 hours. Nobody asks "how many paintballs will I need?".

This is the fastest growing program I have ever tried. I havn't even advertized it yet and I probably won't since I am booked up.

It is also the most profitable program I have ever done.

12.5 paintballs x 8 games = 100 balls per player

So I get $400 per case which includes a 2 hour entry and rental package.

None of the players feel ripped off because they only paid $20 and had a blast.

Originally Posted by Kennard_Mafia

ya thats true, but how fast do most rental guns shoot?

Fast enough with the potential to shoot too many paintballs. Limiting people's equipment leaves a bad taste in their mouths. As paintball continues, we get more and more people with their own gear. I mean that's what we are all hoping for isn't it? That more and more people play regularly and naturally they are going to want their own gear. I'm not going to make a group of friends seperate and play in different games and I'm not going to make the guy that bought his own dream gear rip it apart and make him play with a shake and bake hopper or dial his marker down so it doesn't shoot a ball when he pulls the trigger.

The self budgeting that higher priced paintball promotes is so much easier and so much more effective. And contrary to many people's beliefs, it's also a very popular way to run a field. It's not for everybody obviously, but it works to attract many people who are not attracted to the way most North American fields operate today. The beauty about a free enterprise system is that business people can choose to offer something different if they think there might be a market there and consumers can choose to spend their money where they see fit. There is no conspiracy here to make paintball more expensive. It's just business people offering a different product to anyone that wants to take part.

There is no law coming that business people need to change over to the higher price/lower volume model and there is no law coming that forces players to take part. It's all based on free will.

[Kennard_Mafia]

horizon, i was talking to limit the rental players, if you want to shoot fast, shoot fast with the experienced guys. if i understand everything its to provide a more fun environment for the new players. which can be had with lower rof's they can see the other guys shooting fast, but no one is paying more to play. u could even have 2 diff rental setups, one with billy ball on, and one on true semi or something. but i know how your field works, we've argued back and forth about it and i realize that your field works, im just saying there are other options out there than jackin the price up

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Kennard_Mafia

horizon, i was talking to limit the rental players, if you want to shoot fast, shoot fast with the experienced guys. if i understand everything its to provide a more fun environment for the new players. which can be had with lower rof's they can see the other guys shooting fast, but no one is paying more to play. u could even have 2 diff rental setups, one with billy ball on, and one on true semi or something. but i know how your field works, we've argued back and forth about it and i realize that your field works, im just saying there are other options out there than jackin the price up

But the guys shooting less HAVE to pay more per ball shot. Otherwise the field will not make money on them. You can't base your business model on a player that shoots x amount of balls and then expect to make money on those that are only shooting .5X or .25X amount of balls without changing the pricing structure.

Unless of course you've built in an over abundance of profit when players shoot x amount. Then you might still make out OK if they only shoot .5X amount. But in a free enterprise system, that will not work very well as someone else will see you are making a pile of money and will enter the market and take away some or all of your business.

So when I say I limit the amount of balls my customers shoot with my higher price pricing structure, that is true. But in reality, I've priced my product at a point where I need that amount of money to provide the product I wish to offer to the public and still make a profit. If it was grossly overpriced and I were getting rich, you can bet there would be others entering the market and offering a similar product (in large enough markets that would be fine of course to have multiple fields offering similar products).

[Kennard_Mafia]

thats why originally in the post you first replied to of mine, i said that there was also the option of having the more experience players using whatever mode was legal at that time (psp changes ever 5 min) that way you still have lots of paint being shot, just not at the new people. yes there would still need to be a slight increase, but, it wouldnt have to be as much as if the complete customer base at your field shot slow...so an extra dollar a case spread between all players would more than likely even it out.

[raehl]

Originally Posted by Kennard_Mafia

thats why originally in the post you first replied to of mine, i said that there was also the option of having the more experience players using whatever mode was legal at that time (psp changes ever 5 min) that way you still have lots of paint being shot, just not at the new people. yes there would still need to be a slight increase, but, it wouldnt have to be as much as if the complete customer base at your field shot slow...so an extra dollar a case spread between all players would more than likely even it out.

That requires that you separate players. If you read the thread, you will note that that is not a viable solution for many reasons.

Not to mention, it doesn't solve the root problem: When players shoot lots of paint, the field is forced to waste a bunch of money buying paint.

- Chris

[raehl]

I think I finally came up with a good analogy.

Let's imagine that we are running a Go-Kart course, where people come, pay $X, and get to race Go-Karts for a while. Let's further assume that our Go-Karts have reached the end of their life cycle and it is time to get some new ones.

You have a choice between two different models of Go-Karts. They are identical in every way, except that one uses twice as much gas as the other. Which one do you buy?

Obviously, you buy the one that uses half as much gas, because the gas is a cost of doing business.

Paintball is the same way - if you set up your field so that twice as much paint is being shot, you are wasting a ton of money on paint.

I'm sure someone wants to say "But Chris, we SELL paint! We make more money when we sell more!"

But you don't. If that were true, we could buy the Go-Kart that uses twice as much gas, and then charge for gas! That's brilliant! Now not only are we charging for gas, but we're making the people driving the carts buy twice as much gas, so we make even MORE money!

Yet for some reason not a single Go-Kart place operates like this. Why? Because all it takes is someone else opening up a Go-Kart track using the Go-Karts that take half as much gas and he gets all your business - because he provides the same experience, and costs less.


PAINT IS A COST. The less paint the player uses, the better.


- Chris

[NeCanes]

or you could see it as your paint is the same as the go karts. you have 2 models, both are the same in every way but one cost twice as much. Which one do you buy. Do you buy the special field paint that cost twice as much and you have to sell for more or the regular paint.

Originally Posted by raehl

When players shoot lots of paint, the field is forced to waste a bunch of money buying paint.

if they are selling the paint they are making money off the paint. So its not "wasting" your money. Its just being tied up until it sells. I mean if your looking at it that way why not have 5 rental guns instead of 15. You might not get a full 15 people so your just wasting money with them sitting there.

[generalee72]

Originally Posted by Kennard_Mafia

ya thats true, but how fast do most rental guns shoot? and why not use billy ball mode (or just a slow rof cap) instead of charging an outrageous amount. the new players can play with new players. the experienced tourny guys will shoot massive amounts of paint at each other and that will offset the small amount shot by rentals. hence, everyone is happy

Volume being shot doesn't always pertain to ROF, even though that is a concern, but when people talk about volume being shot it could also just be how much is consumed per game. I could set my marker to under 10BPS, or use a mech, but if I don't choose to regulate myself I would have no problem shooting 5-7 pods a game. (if the paints cheap enough, and I actually live long enough) That's not 20 balls in the air at once, but that's still me pounding a bunker or to the whole game.

Some fields just don't want lots of paint used. Experience level, aggressiveness and attitude aside. I have seen numerous moms turned off by watching experienced players play each other, and they were not even being douche bags. Even after it being clearly explained that her "little baby boy" wasn't going to be playing with them it didn't matter, that thought was stuck in her mind as how the game was played and her son would never be apart of it again. Did the son ever come back? Don't know. Did she go tell the other soccer moms to "stay away"? Probably. Did they keep their kids away? Can't say. Is it worth the risk? Can't say, to each field their own.

[NeCanes]

thats like someone going to a football game and seeing wes welker getting hit over the middle or milan lucic hitting someone through the board and being like my kids not going to play football or hockey.

Theres different divisions for everything. you wouldnt put a 10 year old kid that hasnt played football out on the field with a d1 college team. Youd start him out slow and work him up through the divisions. Dont mix the rec with the advanced players.

[generalee72]

Originally Posted by NeCanes

thats like someone going to a football game and seeing wes welker getting hit over the middle or milan lucic hitting someone through the board and being like my kids not going to play football or hockey.

Theres different divisions for everything. you wouldnt put a 10 year old kid that hasnt played football out on the field with a d1 college team. Youd start him out slow and work him up through the divisions. Dont mix the rec with the advanced players.

Kinda, except there are clear divisions in football and hockey, and you would not be allowed to let your kid go play a college team. For the most part parents know their kid won't be playing older kids. In paintball the lines are a little more blurred, if I had the ability and desire I could take my [theoretical] 10yr old and have him play pro. More importantly in this instance is the parents perception of what is true, they don't know what is true, and unless they are comfortable with the situation there is a good chance they won't listen.

[raehl]

I don't think the way people WATCH paintball being played has much effect on anything. They don't know whether or not it's fun until they try it. It's not like the Pros make it look like paintball is a horribly painful endeavor or something.

It's when people play and do not have gun because there is too much paint being shot at them that most of them decide paintball is not the activity for them, when if they'd just had less paint shot at them they would have had a great time. That's what needs to be fixed.

- Chris