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Old 10-21-2009, 03:41 PM #64
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Me, no never I didnt throw brian under the bus any more than I threw myself.

My point is it doesn't matter what the players do for their income if they are playing on the pro circut. Is the trust fund baby who doesnt need income any more or less of a pro player that works two jobs and goes to school? Doesnt seem like it should matter
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Old 10-21-2009, 03:41 PM #65
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I didn't say it wasn't a sport, my point was that it wasn't a BUSINESS. I agree that Roger is in the 1%, but what I am challenging is the fact that an entire region needs to share his ideology. Roger is blaming New England for his woes, in a sense, when realistically Roger has only himself to blame. "Winners self-select". It appears that Roger was not one of the people who "self-selected" in the region.

What I am arguing is that it is NAIVE to think of paintball as more than a hobby for 99% of the population, so that's where you and I agree Dan. It is a hobby for almost everyone! There are people that want to win. There are people that for them, this is there football, baseball, hockey, tennis, etc. I just think there are too many kids out there who believe they are entitled to something when they are not. Every tournament paintball player thinks they should get a sponsorship just because they have matching jerseys and masks, or because they show up to tournaments. We see it all over the forums here, and in person. It isn't like that in other sports, people see the discipline necessary to be a top level athlete in Football and Basketball and they say, "hey, that isn't for me, I'd rather play for fun". In paintball, everyone thinks that it is that easy. Roger included, he has only played for 1 year, and all of the sudden he is on this forum telling people Pro Players should have picked him up.

It's not easy to do what you guys do Dan. I know that. Smart people know that. Most of paintball DOES NOT know that. That is my point. Too many people think they are going PRO when they are engaging in a HOBBY.

you keep on calling it a hobby and your wrong. its a sport. when i use to play football and baseball and basketball and soccer i use to have to pay to play in the league. same with paintball. you have to practice and pay your way and when you get better you get some financial backbone and when you prove to yourself and others you can play pro you dont have to pay. same with little league baseball you pay to play up untill you get picked up by a highschool or college. and then minors and pros.

you calling it a hobby makes me feel like i play magic cards and worship world of war craft like all those other crazy 2012 the worlds gunna blow up outcasts.
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Old 10-21-2009, 03:49 PM #66
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Cant something we do be a sport and a hobby?? I play indoor soccer with a group as a hobby in winter to keep in shape. But soccer is a sport, so what am i doing a sport or a hobby?? Its both same goes for paintball, It is a sport (atleast i want it to be) but is also a hobby for most people.
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Old 10-21-2009, 03:53 PM #67
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Originally Posted by FU2N View Post
you keep on calling it a hobby and your wrong. its a sport. when i use to play football and baseball and basketball and soccer i use to have to pay to play in the league. same with paintball. you have to practice and pay your way and when you get better you get some financial backbone and when you prove to yourself and others you can play pro you dont have to pay. same with little league baseball you pay to play up untill you get picked up by a highschool or college. and then minors and pros.

you calling it a hobby makes me feel like i play magic cards and worship world of war craft like all those other crazy 2012 the worlds gunna blow up outcasts.
Technically a sport can be a hobby.

Fishing, Golf, Tennis, Swimming etc.

They're all sports AND hobby's, whether you decide to do it competitively or not is your choice.
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That doesn't account for investing one's time.

If you were to start up your own company but tend a bar at night to pay the rent until things got going, then what would your job be?

So, if you believed paintball was your future, would provide for your lifestyle and retirement, but you delivered pizza in the mean time (btw, Dan, you just threw Brian right under the bus there). Then you job is still pizza?
Example 1.)
Your real job is bar tending. If your company has yet to prove that it can provide a sustainable living, then it isn't a reliable job.

Example 2.)
Yes, your job is still pizza. It doesn't matter what you "believe" when you open those white-windowed envelopes at the end of every month. Hopes and dreams don't pay. You have bills, you have to pay them. If delivering pizzas is paying them, then that's your job. However, it doesn't have to stay your job. Since we live in the good 'ol US of A, you're free to go after your dreams. If after 5 years of delivering pizza's, Dynasty decides to pay you more money than Dominoes to help them shoot up those crazy NE Hurricanes, then you have a shot of changing your real job from Pizza-boy to face-blaster. If you want, you can still deliver pizzas one night a week for extra money (gotta pay for lap-dances for the big guy right?) but since playing paintball is now your major-bread winner, that's now your real job, and your delivery position just became optional.

-edit- Likewise, if your newly created company ever takes off, eventually it could replace bar tending as your real job.

Last edited by WillyW0nka : 10-21-2009 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 10-21-2009, 03:54 PM #68
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Cant something we do be a sport and a hobby?? I play indoor soccer with a group as a hobby in winter to keep in shape. But soccer is a sport, so what am i doing a sport or a hobby?? Its both same goes for paintball, It is a sport (atleast i want it to be) but is also a hobby for most people.
i agree and it is. paintball is both. most of us talking right now play tournaments and we practice almost every weekend. i consider that part a sport

you go play a scenario or big game or even just walk on recball that is a hobby.
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Old 10-21-2009, 03:57 PM #69
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I think this thread gets too attached to what things 'should be' when it's entirely based upon the mindset of the person involved in the activity. Koreans play starcraft like a sport and get paid very handsomely to play on televised teams. They've taken a hobby to 99% of the world and turned it into a competitive sport. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

It gets me back to my point earlier: Roger wasn't surrounded by like minded people. Someone earlier commented that 99% of paintballers consider paintball a hobby and that's it, but there are a lot of people that want it to be more and hold it in higher regard than just a hobby. Why hate on their perspective? For all the pro's that get paid like Federov and Lang and Cuba they had a goal and they made it happen. Why shoot down someone that is trying to make that happen by telling him he's crazy for thinking it's more than a hobby?
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:02 PM #70
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FU2N,
You can't play a sport as a hobby?

What Jon is saying is that playing paintball for 99% of people is a fun thing to do with their time and money. Many people have this misconception that it’s an investment. If they get good at it will pay the bills and that’s why they get into it.

Jon,
Don’t you think that many players in High school sports or College sports pick them up with the intention of getting paid? That’s what being a Pro is all about. Money, Fame and Girls! I’m sure a lot will play because they like it and have fun with it. If you did a comparison to other sports I’m sure there are similar people who are doing it to try to get famous.

It’s kind of the American way LOL. We measure success with dollar signs $ here like it or not.


The sport is young. Only time will tell if it picks up enough to see people getting paid. We are a violent society. We love seeing people get abused. Thats why people pay to watch UFC and Boxing. Everybody loves the crashes in Nascar. Bone crunching hits in Football. Hockey fights.

Im sure if derder's Bring Out Your Dead was played on TV it would have much better ratings than NPPL did. Who wouldnt want to see a non stop hour of people getting their heads torn off. I got faith we'll see it eventually.
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:46 PM #71
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you keep on calling it a hobby and your wrong. its a sport. when i use to play football and baseball and basketball and soccer i use to have to pay to play in the league. same with paintball. you have to practice and pay your way and when you get better you get some financial backbone and when you prove to yourself and others you can play pro you dont have to pay. same with little league baseball you pay to play up untill you get picked up by a highschool or college. and then minors and pros.

you calling it a hobby makes me feel like i play magic cards and worship world of war craft like all those other crazy 2012 the worlds gunna blow up outcasts.
Just because you practice something doesn't mean it's a sport. The majority of paintball players out there are not athletes (myself included), and certain formats do not lend them well to calling it a "sport" (I don't want to do the whole 7 man versus X-Ball thing). Most of the people I see playing in the NEPL are enjoying a competitive "hobby". They are not athletes, they can barely play 5 minutes of paintball on a field smaller than a basketball court without throwing up. No offense, I'm sure the people who are reading this ARE ATHLETES, but not all paintball players play paintball for sport.

With your argument, WoW or Magic require just as much physical discipline as Paintball in a sense. I know plenty of people who play WoW a lot more than the CANES and DYNASTY practice. Some of them are exceptional it. Doesn't make it a sport. It also doesn't mean that everyone who plays WoW needs to enjoy it like they do.

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FU2N,
You can't play a sport as a hobby?

What Jon is saying is that playing paintball for 99% of people is a fun thing to do with their time and money. Many people have this misconception that itís an investment. If they get good at it will pay the bills and thatís why they get into it.

Jon,
Donít you think that many players in High school sports or College sports pick them up with the intention of getting paid? Thatís what being a Pro is all about. Money, Fame and Girls! Iím sure a lot will play because they like it and have fun with it. If you did a comparison to other sports Iím sure there are similar people who are doing it to try to get famous.

Itís kind of the American way LOL. We measure success with dollar signs $ here like it or not.


The sport is young. Only time will tell if it picks up enough to see people getting paid. We are a violent society. We love seeing people get abused. Thats why people pay to watch UFC and Boxing. Everybody loves the crashes in Nascar. Bone crunching hits in Football. Hockey fights.

Im sure if derder's Bring Out Your Dead was played on TV it would have much better ratings than NPPL did. Who wouldnt want to see a non stop hour of people getting their heads torn off. I got faith we'll see it eventually.

I agree the sport is young, but the sport lacks discipline and a vision to achieve greatness. Most of the tournament players believe they are owed something for just existing. We don't have the right systems in place and personalities in place for this sport to go anywhere. I don't have the answers to these problems, but we're moving backwards and we're ignoring about 95% of the people who play our sport.
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:59 PM #72
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Forget the business thing its just a distraction. Dan, our own real life pro, has come out to speak on the real subject. That NE has lost its competitive drive and is now lacking in the competitive area. In the fun area were still kickin. Everyone doesn't have to share my enthusiasm for the game at a competitive level.

Some people seem to think that im all about myself and just getting better but i will say this:

WHEN I go pro (which is not soon but im workin on it)...It wont be long before I come back to play for the Hurricanes (if Jeff will let me). Not because it will be the best move financially or competitively but because im a part of NE paintball. Hell I might even make my own divisional team here in NE even though I dont live here.

The boys club that i speak of should be about dedication and competition, women players are cool too, not just "these are my friends we dont care if we lose and we dont need to practice but twice a month or work out"

I am not talking to people who do it for fun. Yall do you're thing. I am talking to people who want to get better and also those to PRETEND to want to get better.
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:05 PM #73
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Forget the business thing its just a distraction. Dan, our own real life pro, has come out to speak on the real subject. That NE has lost its competitive drive and is now lacking in the competitive area. In the fun area were still kickin. Everyone doesn't have to share my enthusiasm for the game at a competitive level.

Some people seem to think that im all about myself and just getting better but i will say this:

WHEN I go pro (which is not soon but im workin on it)...It wont be long before I come back to play for the Hurricanes (if Jeff will let me). Not because it will be the best move financially or competitively but because im a part of NE paintball. Hell I might even make my own divisional team here in NE even though I dont live here.

The boys club that i speak of should be about dedication and competition, women players are cool too, not just "these are my friends we dont care if we lose and we dont need to practice but twice a month or work out"

I am not talking to people who do it for fun. Yall do you're thing. I am talking to people who want to get better and also those to PRETEND to want to get better.
Alright, yes, there are people out there with the drive and dedication to be the best. Just don't knock what the rest of the sport does, as it is that 99% of people that allow the 1% to be "pro".
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:21 PM #74
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I knew you would see it my way jon. Now loan me some money. Hollywood is expensive!
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:51 PM #75
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Ok.... I guess I will say something here... Roger says that paintball is different in other parts of the country.... This I agree with. It was the attitude in the New England area that pushed me away from trying to make things work around here. Instead, I just said screw it and started my pro career in other parts of the country. I have played for teams down south, in the Midwest, NY, and worked with a couple of Cali teams. Yes there was a different feel. I think there was a greater maturity level to their approach. But there is logical reasons for this as well. The New England area/Boston is much more high strung and people react differently to things around here which creates more reactions and so forth which turn towards a certain attitude. Now I will say, I think there have been improvements in the area, but due to alot of the entitlement issues with players it has declined a bit. I'm not saying this area is the **** hole of paintball, but it is different. I have experienced it myself.

I do want to make one thing clear... With everything I have done this year, I can say there are a number of players that do have the right attitude, approach, and passion that this region needs to move into a positive direction... If not, I would of given up on my project... lol

As for the business part of it... any serious team needs to conduct itself in a business like manner in order to be sucessful and sustain itself for a long term run. I look back to the days I was practicing in Chicago every weekend with Aftershock and seeing what a big group of crazy hacks those guys were, they still had a business like approach when it came down to it. Ironmen, Dynasty, Extreme, Avalanche, AAs, and even some Am teams like OBR, Farside, Strange, Naughty Dogs(before pro), Fusion, etc.... These teams were business like, but at the same time had fun (like a hobby). Beyond that, its all up to the team and their goals on how much of a business it would like to be and how their players fit into that arrangement.

As for making money... When I was playing pro, there was only a very small handful that was making money on top of their free rides, travel, meals, gear, etc. I can honestly say out of the 200 active pros, maybe 25 of us got money on top. And now that the fat and happy days are over, it is back to the way it was in 2000.

Ultimately, As a player you have to have a true passion for the sport the get somewhere and achieve your goals... Whatever they may be. Hobby, Sport, something to do with the guys.... all up to the individual. As for me, it is a competitive sport and a passion. Those are the things that drive me to push my team's organization forward. Do I run it businesslike, yes... But do I keep it fun... Absolutely.... It's the balance a team needs.

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Old 10-21-2009, 06:27 PM #76
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I knew you would see it my way jon. Now loan me some money. Hollywood is expensive!
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Old 10-25-2009, 09:40 AM #77
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I read the whole thread, but I am still stuck on the Hypocrisy comment Roger made.

I will not address you directly, because my memory sucks. I will just share my reaction.

Roger basically listed all the reasons he should have been looked at, but he is still missing the most important point. His opinion is not the important opinion.

For some reason his player didn't get a break. It happens.

The music industry is similar in some ways. It is not always important how good you are, but more important where you are, when being good. Who sees you being good and what opportunities are available when all these factors come together...
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Old 10-26-2009, 03:58 PM #78
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Catch up to sumorai and Ill put in the jersey order.

But in all seriousness. Why do most teams look for players? Because they need players...

When I have a full roster thats productive I dont look to make changes (perhaps thats a fault). So thu the year I more or less make a mental list(sometimes physical list my memory sucks) of players that I think would fit in my system. Then if the time comes and a spot is open I ask the people on that list.

Roger was on my list for sure until he told me he was moving. I guess wether or not he would have considered it is another story lol. But he was on my list.

At the same time I make a mental list of who wont wear a jersey.


How bout you guys. Captains/Team Owners are you always on the hunt for new players and thinking about who you should cut to make the team stronger.

More or less when are you looking at players.
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Old 10-28-2009, 10:35 AM #79
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In my experientialy supported opinion all of this is B.S. I mean pure hypocrisy. Just using myself as an example I have been picked cut from more teams in my 1 year than most people do in thier whole career yet I embody every single one of the most desierable qaulities in a player.

I have all the POTENTIAL in the world! But I guess I didnt fit in. I didnt fit in to anyone's boys club. So there it is.

So I am calling you all out. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU!

JEFF STEIN! What does a player REALLY have to do to get taken seriously in this game!?
Sorry for the delay.

First off, I cannot answer this for the teams you should have been talking to. Some of them may have posted here, some not. But I can't say why you didn't "fit in" with local teams.

Nor will I judge teams for their decisions. I donít know what's going on behind the scenes for Crisis or 187 or Identity or anyone else. I know the Hurricanes, and that is all I know, and therefore I won't pass judgment on anyone else.

So, why you were not noticed by NEH: NEH doesn't have the infrastructure to 'train our own." We rely on players participating with local teams. You start on team A, move to team B, then practice against team C. And somewhere along the way you get noticed. Maybe we practice against you or maybe we see you at the NEPL or maybe someone mentions you to us. Most often, though, a player gets noticed by one of the teams we have connections with (NEX, 187) and then we see you through them. NEH itself lacks the manpower to be actively in the trenches of NE paintball.

We tried that a little this year, with "Bob's B-Team." And you were on that. That's how I met you (I think. At least, that's why I remembered your name). But once Bob retired, we didn't have the bodies to keep that project going. It wasn't really an NEH project from the start; it was Bob's baby. Maybe it would have turned out great if things went differently, but they didn't.

So, why didn't NEH pay you more attention? Because you weren't at the point where we can pay you more attention. I can only cater to so many non-Hurricanes at a time, and you weren't there yet.

The failure point came in that you didn't go through the system and end up at the point where I start paying you direct attention.

And, again, this isn't a personal swipe. You have potential. I figured you'd find your way. I just have too much going on with everything else to be involved with players who project to be 2+ years away.

So, the real question is why you didn't fit in with local teams and I already said I can't answer that.

As for your question, "What does a player REALLY have to do to get taken seriously in this game!?" The best answer I can give you is that it takes all the intangibles everyone mentioned, it takes good chemistry - fitting in with the group you are with, it takes a willingness to work through the system, not outside or alongside it, and it takes some luck and good timing. You can be a great snake player today, but as long as Billy is with NEH, that spot is pretty well filled. Ultimately there is no one answer. There is no one way. There are a lot of variables, some that you control and some that you don't.

So, it may not be a good answer, but it's the best answer I have for you.
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Old 10-28-2009, 11:43 AM #80
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You can be a great snake player today, but as long as Billy is with NEH, that spot is pretty well filled. Ultimately there is no one answer. There is no one way. There are a lot of variables, some that you control and some that you don't.

So, it may not be a good answer, but it's the best answer I have for you.

Take this portion of the post and save it.
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Old 10-29-2009, 08:04 PM #81
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As far as 187, we weren't planning on picking up anyone during this past season because we already had a full roster. I think our roster was set since December '08.

I will say that I see a lot of potential in Roger.
He pretty much played anywhere that people were at and would come to Fox to drill also.
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Old 10-29-2009, 08:42 PM #82
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The median salary in the NFL in 2009 is roughly $770,000.
The average salary of an NBA player in 2009 is roughly 5.3 million.
The average salary of an NHL player in 2007-2008 was 1.9 million.
The NE Patriots made 282 million dollars last year after operating expenses.

How much did the Canes make last year? How much, for that matter, did the Ironmen make? Let's take the three most winningest team in the last three years. . .Ironmen, Legion and Dynasty. How many of them are operating on a profitable budget?

It's not a business. You are not making money, that is the purpose of business. It is a hobby.

Definition of Business:

1. an occupation, profession, or trade: His business is poultry farming.
2. the purchase and sale of goods in an attempt to make a profit.
3. a person, partnership, or corporation engaged in commerce, manufacturing, or a service; profit-seeking enterprise or concern.

No Paintball Team is a business. They are money sink holes. Maybe instead of trying to pretend we're a business oriented sport, we should start understanding that we are a competitive hobby run at the will of folks who have money.
if thats truely how you feel why do you own a paintball team? honestly jon i feel that you are just pissed because no matter what you did last season the team didnt meet your expectations. but thats not a reaosn to be negative about the whole sport. if ytou dont like it stop running a team. it's pretty simple
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Old 10-30-2009, 07:38 AM #83
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if thats truely how you feel why do you own a paintball team? honestly jon i feel that you are just pissed because no matter what you did last season the team didnt meet your expectations. but thats not a reaosn to be negative about the whole sport. if ytou dont like it stop running a team. it's pretty simple
I don't own a team to make money. I own a team because it is fun. Work is work. Playing paintball is fun. All of you who think paintball is work are really barking up the wrong tree.
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Old 10-30-2009, 09:07 AM #84
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Okay you're right. But if its making you so miserable why do it? It can't be that fun if you're so negative about the sport. Just seems like you've been down lately jon
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