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Old 10-24-2009, 07:55 PM #1
RisingFenix
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BAD FSDO - need help...

OK, this one has me puzzled. Maybe the collective knowledge of the DP family can shed some light for me.

Current setup (well, all that matters to this question):
Virtue OLED
TechT Bolt Engine
Stock G3 reg w/ red seat
Stock RAPS ASA
45 45 crossfire HP tank

Dwell = 11.5
my field runs at 240 FPS, so my reg pressure is lower than a typical 280-300 fps player.

OK, ever since I installed the new techt bolt engine i've experienced MASSIVE FSDO.
Description of the problem: My first shot after any string of shots (finger off trigger for 1 sec or more) results in fsdo.

I played around with the dwell and input settings to get the gun shooting reliably. Since I installed the board and engine the same day I had to tweak some settings. First I tried higher dwell (like 17 ms) with 1.0 ms anti bolt stick to no avail. The FSDO wasnt THAT bad, but i was eating air. Today I upped the input pressure and dropped the dwell down to 11 ms. This resulted in the gun outshooting my V35 Halo after the first shot. It stayed consistent all day, i just had to get that first shot out of the way and then it was lasers. I then upped dwell to 11.5 and ABS to an extra 6.5. I still have FSDO. For craps and giggles i tried a rediculous ABS setting and still no luck.

I also took the bolt out and cleaned the contact points where the rear of the bolt rests against the bolt stop (those of you with an Engine know what I'm talking about). I heard too much lube in this area could and does cause bolt stick. I cleaned the whole bolt system.

I honestly believe some of the problem is having the input pressure so low. I can up the input pressure and shoot 270-280 over the chrono with no problem. I dont know if higher pressure just overcomes whatever bolt stick issue i'm having, but I need this gun to run reliably at 240 fps. Does anyone think higher pressure and decreased dwell would help?

At what dwell setting does the G3 become unreliable?

Short of taking the solenoid off and seeing if somehow lube got in there, I'm stumped. Any suggestions?

Thanks!
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:14 PM #2
ThickandWide (Banned)
 
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Since you seem to have covered most of the bases I would start at trying a diff tank. Are you using hp or lp tank, also try a diff asa/on off and first and foremost try a diff high quality battery from a place that has a high turnover of them.

Most boards have a reset time for fsdo of ten seconds I believe, not sure though. If you can get one try another reg on the gun but try 1 thing at a timeover a chrono.
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:39 PM #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThickandWide View Post
Since you seem to have covered most of the bases I would start at trying a diff tank. Are you using hp or lp tank, also try a diff asa/on off and first and foremost try a diff high quality battery from a place that has a high turnover of them.

Most boards have a reset time for fsdo of ten seconds I believe, not sure though. If you can get one try another reg on the gun but try 1 thing at a timeover a chrono.
Tank is HP, I use Duracells pretty exclusively without any problems and I have a few other guns, I tried a CP with the same results. I will say that the CP was brand new, though I think the problem may be solenoid or bolt related, possibly an oring stickin somewhere that I'm missing. The only thing I haven't tried is a new ASA, I have a CP one on another gun, I may try that. I love the RAPS lever though, I really hope that's not the culprit!
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:45 PM #4
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Only problem noid rings ever caused me was a leak, never fsdo but never say never. I am not sure on the warranty issue but if you are confident in doing it yourself then I would try it. Remember to use sleek 33 on some other ( non oring swelling) on the orings though. Goodluck

But my experience was with the f8 and not your setup, might want to want for more infomative posters than me.
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:59 PM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThickandWide View Post
Only problem noid rings ever caused me was a leak, never fsdo but never say never. I am not sure on the warranty issue but if you are confident in doing it yourself then I would try it. Remember to use sleek 33 on some other ( non oring swelling) on the orings though. Goodluck

But my experience was with the f8 and not your setup, might want to want for more infomative posters than me.
im so baffled i welcome all input. Maybe someone can think of something that i'm overlooking.

The odd thing is that another member of my team has the exact same setup as me, except has the Ape board. Not a single problem. Same dwell setting, shooting same FPS, etc...

I thought I was a decent gun tech until this haha.
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Old 10-24-2009, 09:20 PM #6
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Originally Posted by RisingFenix View Post
im so baffled i welcome all input. Maybe someone can think of something that i'm overlooking.

The odd thing is that another member of my team has the exact same setup as me, except has the Ape board. Not a single problem. Same dwell setting, shooting same FPS, etc...

I thought I was a decent gun tech until this haha.
Maybe answer lies within. 1 by 1 use his stuff, bolt, asa, reg, tank,etc.... to see if you find the problem. remember 1 thing at a time. also reset your board to default and try yes another battery or a simple oring change out and a diff lube.
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Old 10-24-2009, 09:56 PM #7
RisingFenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThickandWide View Post
Maybe answer lies within. 1 by 1 use his stuff, bolt, asa, reg, tank,etc.... to see if you find the problem. remember 1 thing at a time. also reset your board to default and try yes another battery or a simple oring change out and a diff lube.
Thats the thing, we use the EXACT same stuff. Except board. Same color techt engine back cap even haha. RAPS, G3 reg, tank... all same.

It is a good idea though, thanks. I'll probably start with his bolt. For some reason I have a feeling the culprit lies there...
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:04 PM #8
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Try switching out some of the o-rings on the bolt. It might have too tight of a tolerance. If all else fails hit up techt too see if you can get another engine sent to you.
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:57 PM #9
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Perhaps you need to use thinner, slicker lube?

Try something like Hater Sauce or Gun Sav, dow33 in colder weather for spoolies could be causing stick
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Old 10-25-2009, 08:30 PM #10
RisingFenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAznInvazn View Post
Perhaps you need to use thinner, slicker lube?

Try something like Hater Sauce or Gun Sav, dow33 in colder weather for spoolies could be causing stick
You might be right. Come to think of it, he uses Hater Sauce and I use Dow33.

Compiling a pretty decent list of new things to try.
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Old 10-25-2009, 09:32 PM #11
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I had a problem with FSDO over the past 2 weeks. I come to find out after doing the same thing you were I just took out the valve in the noid and lubed it up and presto FSDO went away. May as well take it apart and lube it as its not complicated to do. That's if you haven't done it already.
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Old 10-27-2009, 06:37 AM #12
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Looks like everyone covered most of the points . My friend and I have 5 G3 ' s between us and love to tinker with guns . We are really having trouble getting that Techt bolt engine to perform well . The only suggestion I have is to try your gun with the stock bolt setup to see if that helps .
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Old 10-27-2009, 09:29 AM #13
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I had this problem with my rev-i where it just carries on firing it turned out the switch just had to be broken in
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Old 10-27-2009, 11:20 AM #14
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Stock dwell on a G3 is 15. I would say your dwell is too low at your operating pressure. Running only 240 fps with a dwell of 11.5 is a bit low.

How many blinks is 11.5 on a Virtue board? Usually with Virtue boards the amount of blinks does not correlate to the dwell time. 1 blink is not a dwell of 1 on virtue boards from my experience.

If you up the dwell to 15 you'll sacrafice a bit of air but since you're only shooting at 240 fps, it might not make that big of a difference.

I would also try "tuning" your dwell. Similar to what Ape does with their V4 software. Follow these steps.

1. Make sure your tank is full and lube your bolt. I would suggest whatever grease you're comfortable with and mix it with some gun oil. A very light coating is all that's needed.
2. Start with a low dwell. I would start at a dwell of 5 or 7.
3. Dry fire your marker. It should cycle slowly.
4. Up the dwell by 2. It should cycle better. Chrono. What is your reading?
5. Up the dwell by 2 again. Does it cycle good? What does it chrono at? Any FSDO? If it does not perform adequately...
6. Up the dwell by 2 again. If you started at a dwell of 7, this will bring you up to 13. How does it fire? Good? What are you chrono'ng at? Any FSDO? If you dropped your reg pressure to fire the gun at 240, do you still have FSDO? If so, up the dwell by 2.

As for lubing the solenoid, it isn't needed. If you lube your bolt, some of that lube will transfer into the solenoid therefore your solenoid should be lubed fine. A trick that I learned from a member here named Brian Rodela, is to put 2-3 drops of gun oil in your ASA prior to air'ng up your marker. The oil will transfer to your solenoid and will break up any hard grease that may be caked in there. This little trick worked great for me. It may not work for you the first time you do it, but if you drop oil in your ASA everytime you air up, this will help alleviate any solenoid stick, which in turn can solve your FSDO. I used to have issues with FSDO but it was due to me lubing the back cap on my stock bolt setup. After I cleaned it off, I still had minor issues with FSDO. I then used the oil in the asa trick a few times, never had bolt stick or FSDO ever again. I now use this trick with my EGO and my DM.
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:23 PM #15
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You said you use Duracell (good!) but have you changed it out?

Also, the "insert" for the TechT engine cap ... what way do you have it facing as it should only be installed one way.
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Old 10-27-2009, 05:54 PM #16
RisingFenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowboardgeek1 View Post
Stock dwell on a G3 is 15. I would say your dwell is too low at your operating pressure. Running only 240 fps with a dwell of 11.5 is a bit low.

How many blinks is 11.5 on a Virtue board? Usually with Virtue boards the amount of blinks does not correlate to the dwell time. 1 blink is not a dwell of 1 on virtue boards from my experience.

If you up the dwell to 15 you'll sacrafice a bit of air but since you're only shooting at 240 fps, it might not make that big of a difference.

I would also try "tuning" your dwell. Similar to what Ape does with their V4 software. Follow these steps.

1. Make sure your tank is full and lube your bolt. I would suggest whatever grease you're comfortable with and mix it with some gun oil. A very light coating is all that's needed.
2. Start with a low dwell. I would start at a dwell of 5 or 7.
3. Dry fire your marker. It should cycle slowly.
4. Up the dwell by 2. It should cycle better. Chrono. What is your reading?
5. Up the dwell by 2 again. Does it cycle good? What does it chrono at? Any FSDO? If it does not perform adequately...
6. Up the dwell by 2 again. If you started at a dwell of 7, this will bring you up to 13. How does it fire? Good? What are you chrono'ng at? Any FSDO? If you dropped your reg pressure to fire the gun at 240, do you still have FSDO? If so, up the dwell by 2.

As for lubing the solenoid, it isn't needed. If you lube your bolt, some of that lube will transfer into the solenoid therefore your solenoid should be lubed fine. A trick that I learned from a member here named Brian Rodela, is to put 2-3 drops of gun oil in your ASA prior to air'ng up your marker. The oil will transfer to your solenoid and will break up any hard grease that may be caked in there. This little trick worked great for me. It may not work for you the first time you do it, but if you drop oil in your ASA everytime you air up, this will help alleviate any solenoid stick, which in turn can solve your FSDO. I used to have issues with FSDO but it was due to me lubing the back cap on my stock bolt setup. After I cleaned it off, I still had minor issues with FSDO. I then used the oil in the asa trick a few times, never had bolt stick or FSDO ever again. I now use this trick with my EGO and my DM.
Agreed, dwell on regular Virtue boards does not always correlate to one blink = 1ms dwell, however on the OLED board I'm able to read exactly what my dwell is set at.

The engine will cycle at 10 for me, so I run 11.5 for consistency. However, all the way up to 17ms I still had FSDO (no need to up dwell any further, pretty much useless as far as efficiency is concerned at that point.)

I do run oil through the ASA, but I think it may be time to pull the solenoid and try cleaning it completely through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntenseImage View Post
You said you use Duracell (good!) but have you changed it out?

Also, the "insert" for the TechT engine cap ... what way do you have it facing as it should only be installed one way.
My battery is fresh (confirmed by the OLED), the insert i BELIEVE is tapered end facing the bolt. (took it apart Saturday and it stays at my shop. I won't be messing with it again until this Saturday).
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