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Old 10-13-2009, 09:16 PM #43
NewYorker51
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Excellent work. I'm sticking with 68.
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Old 10-13-2009, 09:29 PM #44
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Well, if the .50 cal paint weighs 1.21 grams, then I am not sure if I want to shoot it. I like having the range of a .68. BUT, if the paint companies can increase the density of the 50 cal balls to 1.5g or maybe even 2g, there is no reason why I would ever want to shoot .68 cal again.

If these numbers are right, count me out almost for sure. But if they are wrong, I am a wait and see.
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Old 10-13-2009, 09:46 PM #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GI MilSim Paintball
The paint is not finished yet.. Once the actual weight is accomplished, then we shall see. Also, another thing is that the 50 cal has a much thinner shell. It breaks on impact much more easily at distance then the 68.
The fact that the paint is not finished yet leads me to believe they haven't figured out a formula that they are able to inject. Maybe they will, but at this point I am skeptical and it seems more likes a desperate move from failing companies/people that have burned one too many bridges in the paintball industry.

Here's a good quote from Tom Kaye that I haven't seen posted over here yet:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AGD
Hello Everyone,

Well I don't come to the forum for a few days while I am chasing dinos and look what pops up.

First of all, I have actually PLAYED with 50 cal back in the day using Budd's Sniper. In the 80's 50 cal held the same hope it does today, a way to sell cheaper paint and get more of it in the gun. Back then it was a double bonus since a 12 gram would fire a whole lot more 50's than 68's. As you can imagine, the 50 had piss poor accuracy and didn't break. It was quickly given up on along with 62 cal. promoted by Tippmann.

My read of the story tells me something different that I will SPECULATE on. Richmond sold his company from what I understand, and likely has a specific non-compete. The 50 cal ball probably gets around this and this could be the major motivation. I know personally because we have the same thing between Pepper Ball and FN, in our case the weight of the ball makes the difference.

I have to think that as you have already speculated, they took the ability to make fragile paint and mixed in a heavy fill to get a small 3.3 gram paintball. This should in fact be more accurate and fly farther at the same velocity. The reduction in frontal area is a big plus and the issues with a smaller ball and vortex shedding should not negate all of those gains.

The big trick will be to see if they break well. With a 50 you are distributing the energy no matter what over a smaller area. The smaller shape of the ball makes it inherently harder to break all things being equal. I don't think you can go much thinner in the paint shell and still be able to seal it together so they are probably making the shell tensile strength weaker. By my estimations they will hurt more with 3.3 grams at 300 fps.

The fill will absolutely be the most challenging part hands down. I calculated that a 50 has .07 cu inch of fill against the 68 at .16. So a bit better than 2-1. In order to make a heavier 50, you have to come up with a NON-TOXIC fill that's TWICE as heavy. This is no easy task. Most liquids hover around a specific gravity of 1-1.5 ish. There are liquids that get up to 2.0 but they are all toxic that I know of. We used liquids to 3.0 in the early 90's when we were investigating paintball accuracy and I still have the stuff today because you can't throw it away.

So here is the specific problem the way I see it. In order to up the weight of the fill you have to put some type of particle in it. Ground rock, powdered metal (bismuth) etc. We went down this road, the problem was that we could never inject a slurry through a needle without the needle plugging up no matter what we did. Eventually we gave up and put the powder in first and the fluid in after. Today's gelatin machines absolutely depend on a needle injecting the fluid into the ball as it pinches off the seam. I am dying to see how they accomplish this but Richmond has some pretty smart people around him.

Other problems you don't think about are things like the size of the holes in the mask. A 50 can squeeze through a pretty small hole in a rubber mask guard. My question is who is going to build a motorized hopper for these guns???

The can fit way more holes in the drum of the gelatin machine so the output per hour per machine will probably be more than double having an impact on cost. The fill has to add to the price so we will see how it shakes out. Remember to calculate the price per POUND of 50 vs 68 paintballs to see if there was really an economic advantage.

In the final equation my personal opinion is that its a bad idea for paintball only because it puts us that much closer to airsoft. If cheaper smaller balls are a good idea, why not get the cheapest smallest balls you can find (airsoft)? We already made the guns look mil-sim and hands down the airsoft guns look cooler and go full auto. So I don't personally understand it but hey, Richmond made WAY more money in paintball than I ever did so he must see things I don't.

My final comment. Everyone seems to agree that the paintball industry has been in trouble for some time. If I was god-of-paintball and wanted to get the industry going. I would get all the existing manufacturers together and force them to agree to licensing anyone their patents for 5 years for a dollar. This would bring a flurry of new businesses back into the market and you would have a flood of new products and cool ideas. In my opinion, that would help paintball more than anything.

AGD
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Old 10-13-2009, 09:48 PM #46
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I keep seeing people say "it's not the final production fill". And that bothers me somewhat. So we have a company making claims on a paint they haven't created yet?

I mean... What is this paint I have in these sealed plastic bags nicely labeled GIMilsim? The junk stuff?

So let's assume it's the cheaper stuff... Fine.

Paint varies roughly 10% in fill weights. .68 caliber paint I ran numbers at 3.0 grams, the real heavy tournament stuff weighs in at even MORE and is roughly 3.3 grams. That's a 10% increase. You can only make the paint weigh so much and still have it go splat on it's target. Any more and you're just shooting silly putty.

So let's add 10% to the current "production" fill. That brings us to 1.331 grams. Again, we can only go so high without making the cost either really expensive, or any higher and it won't be viscous enough to make a splat.

Here are those numbers:
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/50ballis...rcentmore.html





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Old 10-13-2009, 10:05 PM #47
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yes its very interesting gi milsim would make videos of this all around better paintball topping the .68 in all categories that matter then show up to cup with something else. if not now then when? all that hype that started early 2009 leading up to cup and they don't even have a top of the line batch that they can use for demonstrating range? i'm a bit disappointed.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:14 PM #48
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It is rather odd that a company is telling us how great their new product is and then in the same breath are telling us they haven't actually got the final product figured out yet.

Maybe they should have waited until they got it right? Marker manufacturers have already gambled on a new product. What happens if the new product never materializes and we end up with this mediocre product that they are currently showing us? Why do I get the feeling that the product is never going to get much better? Starting to look more and more like marketing BS to me.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:15 PM #49
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I agree with Tom on pretty much everything he said. I know Richmond, and there is no way he's in this "for the sport" lol. He can't make 68 cal, so he's trying to start a "Revolution" that will allow him to sell the 50 cal at a greater profit margin even at current market conditions.

I doubt it will ever meet expectations.....the only real choice will be to increase the chrony speed for 50 cal to give it similar performance. Even then it will only give it ballistic performance. Markability and breakability may still be inferior. Cheaper yes, but he's just trying to steal a part of the paintball market he's not allowed to get into at this point. Lasoya is just one of his lapdogs. They've always been good friends.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:32 PM #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orionz06 View Post
The issue remains that the "final batch" or "final formula" has not been finished, atleast thats what I was told when this thread came out

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3227357

Your data omits the denser rounds that are capable of exceeding .68 at 300fps. Once it is confirmed that the "final bs" they told me is done, and we have information on that, then we should exclude the rest of the data.
brainwashed...
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:08 AM #51
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Awesome work- thanks for sharing it.

From what I'm reading, in order to be 100% as effective as .68 cal, .50 cal needs to be shot at about 450Fps (so what? a 115FPS increase? sounds right). That's pretty bogus- and takes a page from air**** in that certain systems are allowed to shoot faster For whatever reason.

Similarly, I'm not impressed with the companies excuses for this. "it's not final product!" Assuming I accept that (I don't) why was an imperfect, not-final product used for the unveiling of the system at World cup? That just seems like a bad business move, you know, using something that could ruin a product's reputation before the product is even widely available. Then again, I'm no business major, so I have no idea.

I had pretty high hopes for this- after all, who among us doesn't want to reload less in games and carry fewer pods without carrying less paint?- But for now, I'll be keeping to my .68 gear, and giving this a year or two.
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:51 AM #52
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I'm seriously expecting that GI Milsim will announce sometime soon that their paint should be shot at anything up to 400 fps.

Personally that doesn't bother me - a smaller, brittler (in theory) round wont hurt any more or be any more likely to break my mask at that rate than a 68.

I guess we'll just wait and see.
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Old 10-14-2009, 03:42 AM #53
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God bless painthappy and his associates!
Since the paint is still in 'development', why can't they add magical heat-seeking, laser-guided, uzi-saw'd off shotgun powers...
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Old 10-14-2009, 03:46 AM #54
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it seams like a lot of you are forgetting that in the 80s when this came around the first time they had all the same stuff we have now for the most part(even carbon fiber was made in 1958). their have not been any brand new chemical break through that can increase the density of a fluid. and if their has i bet its not cheep .this is the highest density fluid i could find http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4292183.html but its ingredients are about as hazardous as chlorine gas not a good thing to shoot someone with by the way this was patented in 1978 even if this could be made safe by the 90s they would have found it.

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Old 10-14-2009, 04:09 AM #55
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Great job on this.

Stick this thang.
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Old 10-14-2009, 05:02 AM #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG DOG View Post
brainwashed...
hardly...
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:00 AM #57
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Originally Posted by cockerman dan View Post
Well, if the .50 cal paint weighs 1.21 grams, then I am not sure if I want to shoot it. I like having the range of a .68. BUT, if the paint companies can increase the density of the 50 cal balls to 1.5g or maybe even 2g, there is no reason why I would ever want to shoot .68 cal again.

If these numbers are right, count me out almost for sure. But if they are wrong, I am a wait and see.

your forgetting one little point if they make it go up to 2g, which they wont. that much force while less mass, will be hitting in a much smaller area considering the size of the balls are different, meaning if you do up the FPS, and mass, it could almost make it more painful since itll be hitting in a smaller spot and not spread out as much as the .68 cal. which would kinda get away from people saying that its to make it less painful for newer players. ill prolly try it out, but by borrowing someone else's marker, not goin and spending a ton of money on it first.
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:14 AM #58
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Wait a minute. I thought Tom was a paintball God !

You can't be an ex-God. There's no such thing as an ex-God.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:03 AM #59
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Figured we also might as well run the numbers on how the paint is affected by wind. The lighter the projectile the more affected it will be.

Throw a golf ball and a ping pong ball in a strong wind. Obviously the lighter ball will drift further off your original target than the golf ball would.

We have the same situation here.

Data:
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/50ballistics/wind.html

Using a 10 MPH wind, I figured the drift for a 3.0 gram .68 caliber ball, the current production 1.21 gram .50 caliber ball, and our theoretical (but not a reality yet if ever) heavier 1.331 gram .50 caliber ball.



The sooner the curve (at distance) the more affected the paint will be due to wind.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:18 AM #60
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I'm glad to see that one. I was reserving judgement on the smaller projectile being influenced by wind. I knew it was less mass, but I had assumed it to be smaller might balance out. I'm glad to see the formula results posted on that matter.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:20 AM #61
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These graphs further strengthen my resolve against using .50 cal paint. I personally will not trade accuracy for more efficiency. And if you really think about it you won't even save any money because if the .50 cal is less accurate that means you'll have to shoot more paint.

.50 cal = fail imo
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:32 AM #62
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Now, now. These aren't the final production series yet. My sources confirm that they are ramping up production on the 'Magic Pixie Dust' that will confirm their claims. Problem is that Pixies are small and so it takes awhile to make sufficient quantities...

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Old 10-14-2009, 08:36 AM #63
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Our current nano fabrication technology in use for other industries is easily adaptable to producing magic pixie dust on a scale that would sufficiently supply the industry. Using the proprietary process also allows less pixies to be harmed, and is substantially better than previous attempts at producing pixie dust on any level.
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