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Old 07-22-2009, 07:43 PM #1
Cromagnum Tankerman
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Save the tanks at Skirmish

Hi everyone, During our pre-inspection of our tank at ION this year. I am assuming all tankers got the same speech from Terry Breslin. I was told that the Skirmish Management doesnt like tanks but currently still do accept a limited amount to the games because of the impact they make. He advised me that tanks were going to be scrutinized and if things went in a negative way then this game could be the last game for tanks at Skirmish. It appears from what I have heard that sometimes tanks and their crews cause problems on and off the field. One of the big things SKirmish Management doesnt like is the fact of a dedicated ref to each tank which causes staffing issues. This causes a shortage of coverage on the field for refs in general. I guess at most fields this could be a problem. If some people were wondering why only 6 tanks (3 Allied - 3 German) were allowed at Skirmish this year this was the behind the scenes reason. Actually the Germans had a fourth tank that was used in a limited way. So I am hoping that the tank crews that were at this game provided or recieved positive feedback to the SKirmish Management, tank refs, and many players. I am not sure about the other tanks. But our tank refs thanked us for listening to them. I am not aware of any incidents regarding tanks this past weekend. SO what I am asking here is for the players and refs provide some kind of positive feedback to Skirmish Management so we can bring our tanks back in future games.

Nelson - Allied Tank #1
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Old 07-22-2009, 08:13 PM #2
stevebski
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nelson,
I'm sorry but if they don't want to provide a ref to escort each tank, they don't seem interested in what we can bring to the game for the players. The refs are there not only for the player's safety, but our own. We did discuss this exact safety concern in the tank storming thread. At a field that pulls in the volume of players that Skirmish does, they should have the logistics of refs sorted out long before game day. Every game I've attended with my tank I have always made multiple attempts to make the field staff aware I am bringing my tank, and what on my end I need to do to make sure I can use it. I've only had one producer ignore me, my voicemails, emails, personal visits and act surprised on game day when I showed up with my tank. One of the many reasons that field's name is no longer on the side of our tank or on our website. As tankers, we are very responsible about bringing our tanks to the fields. The producers and field staff need to match this. From what I get from your post, Skirmish doesn't want to put in what we do. Let them take tanks away from their games and see who comes asking about them. I bet it's the group they will listen to. The paying customers. For my own liability I don't take my tank anywhere I don't get a ref to walk us. Skirmish is an awesome field. It's absolutely huge, it draws even larger numbers of ground pounders and has plenty of ground for a tank to cover. It would be a shame to lose this field as a tank-friendly field.
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Old 07-23-2009, 10:05 AM #3
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Don't like tanks because why? Risk? Philosophy?

The Refing requirements didn't quite float considering their revenue base did it? Other fields requires the tank to furnish their own walking ref or guard. Don't like that either but they could have done that if they didn't want to increase their payroll. So that reason just doesn't pass muster does it.?

Well, since I have only operated a walking tank that doesn't have the safety and liability issues a motorized tank has, my opinion may be a bit biased.

Still, I have been to a couple of games in my walking tank that REQUIRED a ref travel with a tank. Tour of Duty and they dropped it after a few games and did not require it. They were experimenting with letting tanks STOP on the tank roads and wanted to make sure players didn't use the tank for cover and get hurt when it starts to move again. Previously, tanks could not stop on a tank road so the grunts didn't have too many opportunities to be tempted to violate the 20 foot rule. They dropped it after they saw that stopping did not cause any more 20 foot rule infractions that before. Always a Newbie that didn't read the rules or attend the game briefing that had to be sent out of the game for 15 minutes to read about the 20' rules.

At all the other games, no refs were required to go with tanks - walking or motorized. Seems like a non issue based on my experience.

Still, there was always a ref around where the action was. Where there was a high density player environment and my walking tank or a motorized tank, there was usually a ref or two around. Just natural for the refs to be near the fights for the objectives.

No reason to run a ref to death trying to keep up with a tank that is just deploying to and from the insertion area and where the action is.

I am ALWAYS for safety. First time there is a big settlement, we won't be able to play with our toys anymore.

I would also say field management should err on the side of caution with something different or new until they develop some history with it and can evaluate the risk level.

Remember how many YEARS it took for the Nerf Round to be accepted by the field owners and how long it took to decide that 230 fps is a "Safe" velocity to use it? Now some games like Viper Games require you shoot a nerf DIRECTLY at an unprotected player. You have to HIT a helicopter with a nerf to shoot it down. That is a guy with a pole with a propeller mounted on top of it. Running like a tight end with the football, zigging and zagging to avoid getting hit with a Nerf. If it is an ATTACK Helo, coming in to take out your tank, you pretty much have to wait until he gets VERY close because you only get ONE shot. Viper has a lot of experience shooting Nerfs at players at close range. Not a problem unless the guy wasn't wearing a cup. Then after a while, he will get up off the ground and resume play.

Still, other games FEAR that Nerf strikes directly on players is a risk. Can't shoot nerfs at anything except tanks. Other games, Can't shoot directly at players but can at bunkers and buildings occupied by players that could potentially get hit but less likely and usually at a fair distance away.

I run into that 'err on the side of caution' all the time building my special weaponry. Fields are hesitant to be the first guy to allow a field test of something new.

I have TWO gizmos that I have a scaled down, working prototypes ready to field test. I have yet to find a field that will give it a try. One is a flamethrower with a 25 YARD range that could potentially be scaled up to a 100 yard range. That would give this SPORT something it doesn't yet have and that is field artillery that marks players with splatter so they can call themselves out.

The other is my STKT anti tank round with a 100 yard range that uses PAINTBALLS just like the old style "Shotgun" rounds that many fields still allow. This is RECYCLED and UPGRADED old paintball technology that the fields and producers should be comfortable with. But I get resistance.

I keep getting EXCUSES not to be the first field to try something new that really isn't new at all. Safety considerations and ain't FAIR to the other tanks and players are most frequently. But they already have countermeasures for them. Attack helos can raise havoc with field artillery. And they could have field artillery too. Take each other out.
After the safety issues have been met, as long as there is a balance of power, and everybody is having fun, it makes no business sense to not let the sport evolve with new things to draw players to their games.

Still, specific to Skirmish, is there a basis for this opinion? Did they have a near miss or close call? More than one? or is this a perceived risk with no basis in fact or experience.

Is it just a POLICY disquised as something else? Tour of Duty and OK D Day cited 'insurance requirements' in their ban of home made RPGs and Nerfs.

There are only TWO underwriters for paintball in the entire country and neither require that of the REST of their fields. It was a convenient lie about 'safety and insurance requirements'.

The REAL reason was the previous D Day game the Allies showed up with over 100 home made RPGs and neutered the German armor... An inappropriate solution solution to the problem. We wouldn't have had that many RPGs if they evened up the number of tanks on each side in the years before. It was like 30 German vs 6 Allied for the YEARS before. Too many players got TIRED of Too Many Tanks on one side and the Producer NOT responding to the customers complaints. He has a Cash Cow and sees NO REASON to change anything as long as 4000 players show up with their wallets open......

So we adapted, made our home made RPGs and got some PAYBACK. I was there with my RPG. My favorite game quote from inside a tank. "Are we dead again?" A little too much payback as it turned out...

Some players and I'm sure some fields have the philosophy that paintball should be about paintball and just don't LIKE tanks, RPGs, helicopters, etc. They think we can have fun playing war games with just markers and I have been to some of those games and had a blast playing as a grunt. They have the right to run their field any way they want.

After we pointed out D Days and Tour of Duty convenient lies to the paintball community via the Internet, they changed their tune and said paintball should be about paintball and we should just use paintballs to kill tanks..

Fine, their privilage but hitting a 2" target on the front of a tank with one or two paintballs pretty much makes armor invincible compared to a RPG nerf round that can hit a tank anywhere. Anybody notice the Tour of Duty died due to lack of growth in attendance (and revenue) while Smakzone in the same state grew in attendance to a 500+ player game and pass the Tour of Duty like they were standing still. You can't blame that on the 'economy'. The players VOTED with their pocketbooks..

More than a few fields and producers KNOW that tanks draw players to the game and give a FREE admit to a tank crew if they pre register. After all, this is a business and is basically about Money!

So what does Skirmish SAY is the reason why? Do you buy it at face value or is there maybe an unpublished reason?

Last edited by Boom Master : 07-23-2009 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:06 AM #4
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Nelson, I wish you luck with Skirmish.

Yeah I have to question why they dont like like tanks? The tankers are causing problems on and off the field??? What kind of problems are the tankers causing that are such an issue as it negates the bennefit of having them in a game? I mean tanks are a draw. They add an extra element to the games. Most players doing large scale events like to see tanks in play.
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:15 AM #5
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I have played with Nelson at many games under the Tyrell umbrella. I can say with conviction that neither he nor anyone who gets in his tank cause problems on or off the field. We also had a second tank this year that ran under the Allied banner and I heard no complaints from anyone about them.

I have watched Blackangels 6x6 tank at numerous Skirmish games and haven't heard anyone say anything negative about the way he runs his tank. So from my perspective I do not know why Skirmish has a probblems with tanks.

I really hope they don't ban them beacuse they add an element to the game that I beleive adds to the overall great game play. It also makes the commanders think just that much more beacuse it is one more aspect you have to take into account when planning your strategy.

Hey Nelson, I posted your comments in the ION thread. I felt you get a better resposne from the other groups that had tanks at ION in that thread.
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Last edited by deadpooll : 07-24-2009 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:55 AM #6
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Grunts tend to WHINE about tanks. They feel defenseless against a tank and dislike their options when there are no anti tank capabiliities in their squad. Run, Hide, Surrender, or Die.....

If they get shot, they whine about that too even though it is part of the game.

They complain about being overshot by tanks. Primarily because they ASSUME the tank gunners can SEE a break on them or HEAR them call themselves out. NEITHER is the case.

The tank gunners have paintball splatter on their masks, looking through netting and half the time have the sun in their face.

They are inside a CAN, with motor noise, and firing a marker. The grunts are pounding the outside with paintballs. The gunner can't communicate with the DRIVER much less hear a grunt call himself out...

Because the grunts don't know HOW to call themselves out when killed by a tank they collect Bonus Balls and it is NOT intentional overshooting. However, it FEELS exactly like overshooting and they whine about it.

My favorite whine of all time was when everyone ran away but ONE guy when my walking tank rolled into the objective followed by 20 grunts. He hid behind a HUGE elm tree. I invited him to surrender. He had no place to go and would die shortly between myself and 20 grunts that would flank him. He responded by firing at my tank which I took as a NO response to the invitation to surrender. So I went to the tree and chased him down until I could get a shot. Double tapped him. 2 Balls.

He went to the Producer and said a tank shouldn't be allowed to chase him around a tree and hosed him with paintballs..... The producer was going to pull me out of the game but when he called the ref to let me know the ref told him what REALLY happened...

So the field hears a LOT of complaints about tanks from the grunts.

All of us tankers need to BEG the Producers and Field Owners to TELL the players how to call themselves OUT if killed by a tank to avoid Bonus Balls or Over Shooting.

Raise BOTH hands, stand up, and WALK out of the firefight. Do NOT run or you will draw fire. You look like a guy making a move AND players CAN'T run with their hands high up over their heads. Give the tank gunner a clear VISUAL Cue you are dead....

If the producer DOESN'T do that at the game briefing, they get to any questions part. Then YOU tell the grunts how to avoid Bonus Balls from your tank.

Help educate the GRUNTS how to play with a paintball tank and have fun.
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Old 07-29-2009, 04:02 PM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Master View Post
Grunts tend to WHINE about tanks. They feel defenseless against a tank and dislike their options when there are no anti tank capabiliities in their squad. Run, Hide, Surrender, or Die.....

If they get shot, they whine about that too even though it is part of the game.

They complain about being overshot by tanks. Primarily because they ASSUME the tank gunners can SEE a break on them or HEAR them call themselves out. NEITHER is the case.

The tank gunners have paintball splatter on their masks, looking through netting and half the time have the sun in their face.

They are inside a CAN, with motor noise, and firing a marker. The grunts are pounding the outside with paintballs. The gunner can't communicate with the DRIVER much less hear a grunt call himself out...

Because the grunts don't know HOW to call themselves out when killed by a tank they collect Bonus Balls and it is NOT intentional overshooting. However, it FEELS exactly like overshooting and they whine about it.

My favorite whine of all time was when everyone ran away but ONE guy when my walking tank rolled into the objective followed by 20 grunts. He hid behind a HUGE elm tree. I invited him to surrender. He had no place to go and would die shortly between myself and 20 grunts that would flank him. He responded by firing at my tank which I took as a NO response to the invitation to surrender. So I went to the tree and chased him down until I could get a shot. Double tapped him. 2 Balls.

He went to the Producer and said a tank shouldn't be allowed to chase him around a tree and hosed him with paintballs..... The producer was going to pull me out of the game but when he called the ref to let me know the ref told him what REALLY happened...

So the field hears a LOT of complaints about tanks from the grunts.

All of us tankers need to BEG the Producers and Field Owners to TELL the players how to call themselves OUT if killed by a tank to avoid Bonus Balls or Over Shooting.

Raise BOTH hands, stand up, and WALK out of the firefight. Do NOT run or you will draw fire. You look like a guy making a move AND players CAN'T run with their hands high up over their heads. Give the tank gunner a clear VISUAL Cue you are dead....

If the producer DOESN'T do that at the game briefing, they get to any questions part. Then YOU tell the grunts how to avoid Bonus Balls from your tank.

Help educate the GRUNTS how to play with a paintball tank and have fun.
QFT! God bless all tanks and tankers!
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