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Old 07-22-2009, 04:28 PM #43
Laureate
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I don't understand how this:

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Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
for many, orthopraxy is found through orthodoxy but occasionally orthodoxy is found through orthopraxy.
Answers this:

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Okay, ignore everything that has been said. You asked, "is it possible to love and fear God." I think what you should ask is, "is it possible to love god knowing that you will be punished if you do not." And I would say the answer is no, how can you love something if you don't have a choice?
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Old 07-22-2009, 04:47 PM #44
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1. As to your reworded question...did your dad ever punish you for not loving him? I hope not. Neither does God. You shouldn't think of hell as a punishment inflicted by God for your lack of faith or love.

2.Hell is the state of being eternally separated from God. If that is our state when we die, it simply continues in death.

3.We are responsible for our broken relationship with God. He freely offers reconciliation and restoration. If we refuse, that relationship remains broken. In human terms, if you have a falling out with your father/son and never reconcile before you/he dies, that relationship can no longer be mended.
1. I do not agree with the comparison of Keith and God:
a. The punishments offered by Keith are in no way comparable to those offered by God
b. I have a natural attachment to my parents which makes me automatically love them in the first place. Little time-outs here and there are not going to break the relationship of parent to son. Where as with god, I have no proof the guy exists, have never had an interaction with him, yet I know that if I do not love him, I will be punished. There is no way for me to come to love god in the first place because he has not done any obvious interacting in my life which would lead me to believe that I love him. All I know is that if I do not love him, I will be punished (for an infinite amount of time). How am I suppose to come to love this character?

The punishments are no way equivalent and the attachment is not natural.

If a girl you had never met before put a gun to your head and said "love me", would you actually love her?

2. I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that hell actually is not a place filled with demons and fire? If so, I choose not to take part in a debate that makes use of interpretation (because it will literally be impossible to make the situation more clear).

3. I have never witnessed an opportunity to repent to god. You also assume that reason is pure and is not distorted by past experience and socialization.


god damn these responses suck
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Old 07-22-2009, 05:47 PM #45
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...Where as with god, I have no proof the guy exists, have never had an interaction with him...
It's like God was the father who leaves when your born. Your only reason for loving him is because he created you. Yet this God you've never met will punish you for not loving him? Its hard to love what you cannot see, hear, or interact with, unless you have a lot of faith.
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Old 07-22-2009, 11:11 PM #46
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...Where as with god, I have no proof the guy exists, have never had an interaction with him, yet I know that if I do not love him, I will be punished. There is no way for me to come to love god in the first place because he has not done any obvious interacting in my life which would lead me to believe that I love him. All I know is that if I do not love him, I will be punished (for an infinite amount of time). How am I suppose to come to love this character?You are really hung up with the idea of 'being punished'. If your life were to end today, God is not going to punish you for your lack of relationship with Him. He won't 'send' you anywhere. You will simply remain as separated from Him as you are today.

If a girl you had never met before put a gun to your head and said "love me", would you actually love her?Pretty poor analogy. God in no way threatens you. He simply offers to have a relationship with you. The ball is in your court.

2. I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that hell actually is not a place filled with demons and fire? If so, I choose not to take part in a debate that makes use of interpretation (because it will literally be impossible to make the situation more clear).?We can only guess what hell is actually like, and that seems pretty irrelevant.

3. I have never witnessed an opportunity to repent to god. You also assume that reason is pure and is not distorted by past experience and socialization.The only thing I assume is that you currently have no relationship with God.

god damn these responses suck
But back to your initial question (from your prior post)...
Yes, it is entirely possible to both love and fear someone at the same time.
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Old 07-22-2009, 11:33 PM #47
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"God in no way threatens you. He simply offers to have a relationship with you. "

why does he kill millions of creatures then, most of which never heard of him
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Old 07-22-2009, 11:36 PM #48
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But back to your initial question (from your prior post)...
Yes, it is entirely possible to both love and fear someone at the same time.
Could you please copy your responses into a post so I can quote them for my retort?
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Old 07-22-2009, 11:38 PM #49
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You are really hung up with the idea of 'being punished'. If your life were to end today, God is not going to punish you for your lack of relationship with Him. He won't 'send' you anywhere. You will simply remain as separated from Him as you are today.
Eh, I disagree to be honest. Despite the exact wording you're still being 'punished' in the end if there's simply never any room for gray. Plus, even if you don't move an inch from the very spot you died, you're still in fact given a destination on His grid.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't see the need to split hairs.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:11 AM #50
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Eh, I disagree to be honest. Despite the exact wording you're still being 'punished' in the end if there's simply never any room for gray. Plus, even if you don't move an inch from the very spot you died, you're still in fact given a destination on His grid.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't see the need to split hairs.
I don't think it's splitting hairs. I think there's a very important distinction. Punishment, implies some negative consequence being imposed by the punisher. That's very different from allowing one to realize the consequenses of their actions/choices.

A fair analogy would be to view us 'men overboard'. We're floundering in the water and without help we will eventually drown. A rescuer has thrown us each a life saver (not the candy). If we choose to take hold of the life saver, we will be pulled to safety. If we choose to ignore the life saver we will drown. Those who choose to ignore the life saver are not being punished by the rescuer, they are simply realizing the consequense of that choice.

As far as black/white vs gray goes. I think the 'destinations' are ultimately black/white (separated from God/with God). Where the gray comes in is defining who actually has a relationship with God and who does not (is separated) prior to death. I don't think that is as clear cut as some would like to think.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:23 AM #51
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I don't think it's splitting hairs. I think there's a very important distinction. Punishment, implies some negative consequence being imposed by the punisher. That's very different from allowing one to realize the consequenses of their actions/choices.

A fair analogy would be to view us 'men overboard'. We're floundering in the water and without help we will eventually drown. A rescuer has thrown us each a life saver (not the candy). If we choose to take hold of the life saver, we will be pulled to safety. If we choose to ignore the life saver we will drown. Those who choose to ignore the life saver are not being punished by the rescuer, they are simply realizing the consequense of that choice.

As far as black/white vs gray goes. I think the 'destinations' are ultimately black/white (separated from God/with God). Where the gray comes in is defining who actually has a relationship with God and who does not (is separated) prior to death. I don't think that is as clear cut as some would like to think.
*Cracks knuckles*

1. There isn't just one lifesaver, theres thousands. And according to several of the rescue crews, if you don't choose their lifesaver, you'll drown anyways. There's no way of telling which rescue crew will legitimately save you, and which will end up leaving you for dead anyways. You have a one in a thousand chance of picking the right one. Doesn't seem so simple anymore does it?

2. God has created the system by which we, imperfect and ignorant beings, can potentially make the wrong choice and separate ourselves from him without even knowing we're doing it. We have no concrete way of knowing that we're actually drowning and he refuses to give us that knowledge. The best we can do is assign outrageously subjective meaning to experiences we have. And even then, that's not proof.

So in the system that God designed, we're being pulled in a thousand different directions with no concrete way of knowing which direction is the correct one. And if we don't choose that one correct direction, we don't get a second chance after death. Nope, once you die separated from God, you're ****ed for eternity. God doesn't give you a chance to say, "I say, I was indeed wrong. My mistake, terribly sorry wot wot!"

God created our condition, he therefore indirectly (but knowingly) punishes us for eternity, for a mistake we made in life.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:28 AM #52
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perhaps there are a thousand Gods and you don't know which one.

if you don't accept the christian one, why would you want to be with him anyways?
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:44 AM #53
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"God in no way threatens you. He simply offers to have a relationship with you. "

why does he kill millions of creatures then, most of which never heard of him
He may offer to have a relationship with you, but in a way that is questionable. It's pretty much saying:
"It's completely your choice, just if you don't choose the right answer, you spend eternity in hell. But I'm not forcing you to choose me, it's still your choice."

As for the millions of creatures, do you mean humans who have never heard of God or all animals?
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Old 07-23-2009, 10:52 AM #54
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Quote:
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*Cracks knuckles*

1. There isn't just one lifesaver, theres thousands. And according to several of the rescue crews, if you don't choose their lifesaver, you'll drown anyways. There's no way of telling which rescue crew will legitimately save you, and which will end up leaving you for dead anyways. You have a one in a thousand chance of picking the right one. Doesn't seem so simple anymore does it?

2. God has created the system by which we, imperfect and ignorant beings, can potentially make the wrong choice and separate ourselves from him without even knowing we're doing it. We have no concrete way of knowing that we're actually drowning and he refuses to give us that knowledge. The best we can do is assign outrageously subjective meaning to experiences we have. And even then, that's not proof.

So in the system that God designed, we're being pulled in a thousand different directions with no concrete way of knowing which direction is the correct one. And if we don't choose that one correct direction, we don't get a second chance after death. Nope, once you die separated from God, you're ****ed for eternity. God doesn't give you a chance to say, "I say, I was indeed wrong. My mistake, terribly sorry wot wot!"

God created our condition, he therefore indirectly (but knowingly) punishes us for eternity, for a mistake we made in life.
*Gets the willies from
the cracked knuckles*

1. You'll have to define what you mean by 'thousands of lifesavers', but I don't think it comes down to a one in a thousand chance. There may be some 'false lifesavers' out there, but those typically reveal themselves pretty quickly.

2. Being separated from God is our natural state so it's not a matter of we're either drowning or not...we're all drowning and we've been told we're drowning (that knowledge has been given, not withheld). The only 'proof' that you're drowning is if you do nothing and as a result, in fact, drown. Waiting for proof is not a real good idea.

God has told us what our condition is, has provided the means to change that condition, and has given us the freedom to choose whether or not we want to change that condition.

Just because you don't think you've been told in a 'concrete' enough manner does not change the fact that you have been told. If you choose not to change your condition, you have no business blaming God if that turns out to be a bad choice.
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:30 AM #55
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It's pretty much saying:
"It's completely your choice, just if you don't choose the right answer, you spend eternity in hell. But I'm not forcing you to choose me, it's still your choice."
Lol, the game, I am glad you remember that video! I love that one...
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:42 AM #56
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perhaps there are a thousand Gods and you don't know which one.

if you don't accept the christian one, why would you want to be with him anyways?
I answered this in the other thread.

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*Gets the willies from
the cracked knuckles*

1. You'll have to define what you mean by 'thousands of lifesavers', but I don't think it comes down to a one in a thousand chance. There may be some 'false lifesavers' out there, but those typically reveal themselves pretty quickly.

2. Being separated from God is our natural state so it's not a matter of we're either drowning or not...we're all drowning and we've been told we're drowning (that knowledge has been given, not withheld). The only 'proof' that you're drowning is if you do nothing and as a result, in fact, drown. Waiting for proof is not a real good idea.

God has told us what our condition is, has provided the means to change that condition, and has given us the freedom to choose whether or not we want to change that condition.

Just because you don't think you've been told in a 'concrete' enough manner does not change the fact that you have been told. If you choose not to change your condition, you have no business blaming God if that turns out to be a bad choice.
1. I mean that there are thousands of choices as far as religion goes and many of them claim that if you don't follow it, you'll suffer somehow.

2. Prove that God has told us at all. If so, he hasn't done a very good job. Like I said, he's put us in a situation where we have thousands of choices, many of which could lead to eternal damnation under his rules. Grabbing the wrong lifesaver for example. I have every right in the world to blame God if he couldn't show me which lifesaver was the right one.

You're simplifying this as if there are two choices (Accept God and live, or deny him and drown). It's not that simple. I have already explained why.
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Old 07-23-2009, 12:55 PM #57
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My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God.
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:53 PM #58
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My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God.
Proverbs 2:1-5
Plenty of people have opened their hearts and received nothing, myself included. Then of course you can concoct the counter argument that I chose to ignore the message of some experience (aka I didn't assign subjective meaning to it beyond the concrete facts of the matter). Your scripture reference is therefore totally meaningless.
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Old 07-23-2009, 08:02 PM #59
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One may have justified belief in God but choose not to believe. And justified believe means different things to different people, so I'll say that and leave it at that. But lets assume that if you don't have a justified reason to not belief in God, there's a possible justified believe in God. Many people (way smarter than myself) have argued for the two views and I will not bother discussing them here.

But if this is our premise and one finds oneself without justified reason to not believe in God and with a possible justified believe in God but without motivation in belief of God, how could God condemn us to this limbo?

Well, in appealing to faith one might rely on testimony to justify the uncertainty that comes from belief. Testimony is necessarily a weak source for truth, but with possibly less uncertainty than the previous scenario where one was dependent on one's own acquaintances.

Which is sort of paradoxical. Because we are always more certain when we are acquainted with what we know, but with testimony there is a possibility of "knowing" more about God (quotation marks because I don't feel safe calling this knowledge). Testimony will always require doubt and one must always take testimony with a grain of salt. Most importantly, testimony must always be questioned. But testimony may also provide motivation for a justified belief in God.

And of course not all testimony deserves the same credentials.

NOTE: I was just writing as a response without any certainty. I haven't really thought this through and I know some of it may be vulnerable to skepticism. I don't claim this is all correct.
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:00 AM #60
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I don't think it's splitting hairs. I think there's a very important distinction. Punishment, implies some negative consequence being imposed by the punisher. That's very different from allowing one to realize the consequenses of their actions/choices.
Usually, punishment occurs when bad little boys and bad little girls don't choose to follow directions. Most Christian parents I don't believe will issue consequences (within context) unless the act in the first place was willful against their wishes as lawful guardians. In which case, If our parents are our best analogy towards God, than it still stands within some reason as an intending word.

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A fair analogy would be to view us 'men overboard'. We're floundering in the water and without help we will eventually drown. A rescuer has thrown us each a life saver (not the candy). If we choose to take hold of the life saver, we will be pulled to safety. If we choose to ignore the life saver we will drown. Those who choose to ignore the life saver are not being punished by the rescuer, they are simply realizing the consequense of that choice.
Whether I decide to eat the yummy cherry flavored life savor or the nasty lemon one still isn't disregarding the fact that they're still both made of sugar. Ultimately, my body will digest the two equally

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As far as black/white vs gray goes. I think the 'destinations' are ultimately black/white (separated from God/with God). Where the gray comes in is defining who actually has a relationship with God and who does not (is separated) prior to death. I don't think that is as clear cut as some would like to think.
I understand, but...

Do you honestly think God cares one bit on what we interpret as, "gray?"
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Old 07-28-2009, 04:52 PM #61
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I have come to assume that love and fear are oppisites, yet in Christianity, people are told to love and fear God. So I ask, is it possible to truthfully love and fear something at the same time?
You love your dad right? But you fear him and respect him at the same time. It's like that with me for God anyways. ie " Thanks for giving me life, I worship and love you and respect you and dare not to disobey, cause you can strike me down"
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:32 PM #62
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You love your dad right? But you fear him and respect him at the same time. It's like that with me for God anyways. ie " Thanks for giving me life, I worship and love you and respect you and dare not to disobey, cause you can strike me down"
That would work if love and fear of God was dumbed down to earthly famlies. First of all, I dont to my Dad. Second of all, (I think it's Mark 12:30 *paraphrased*) Love God with all your mind, all your heart, and all your soul. Lastly, my Dad can't damn me to hell for all eternity, I'm not afraid to disobey him. But God has set himself up in a way that people should do things because if they don't they face the wrath of God.
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Old 07-28-2009, 06:15 PM #63
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That would work if love and fear of God was dumbed down to earthly famlies. First of all, I dont to my Dad. Second of all, (I think it's Mark 12:30 *paraphrased*) Love God with all your mind, all your heart, and all your soul. Lastly, my Dad can't damn me to hell for all eternity, I'm not afraid to disobey him. But God has set himself up in a way that people should do things because if they don't they face the wrath of God.
nice!
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