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Old 04-21-2001, 01:57 PM #1
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Talking

: Jeff Orr April 16, 2001
Vice President
Worr Games Products Inc.
13517 Alondra Blvd
Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
(562) 407-2898

RE: CO2 Mail, *** magazine, May 2001; For the record.

Hello Jeff,
Just to keep this from being a novel, I'll get right to the point. In short, your letter to *** was completely out of line, since you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
It appears that your father is not being completely honest with you and that is quite unfortunate. Steve Novak's statement in the referenced article is quite accurate and your rebuttal is based entirely on misinformation propagated by your father and associates to preserve a false image. While I certainly didn't invent pneumatic automation in general, I am certainly the one that figured out how to put it to use effectively in/on a paintball gun. Bud didn't even get a chance to actually see how it worked for over a year after I had my semi auto going and in use. The fellow that he was getting his info from here in Nor Cal, the one you describe as an "engineer", was a local field operator here in Sacramento that was looking at the guns that I had in operation here. The only engineering that he did was in reverse and then got Bud involved in trying to do the conversion. That turkey (Jamel) even had the audacity to call me and tell me what they (him and Bud) were doing. They were going to "put you out of business" by offering the conversion at half the price that I did. That was at least good for a laugh as I told him to go for it. Keep in mind that this was well over a year since I built my gun and shortly after building a couple others. So you see, everything that Bud was doing with pneumatic automation was a direct result of my development work. I even explained the process to him personally and showed him exactly how the system could be adapted to the Sniper at an Easter seals benefit game in Northern Calif., exactly 11 years ago this week. (April 1990)
You also ***-u-me that Matt Brown (AGS) was into the process of developing a semi before I was; which is a big mistake. Matt's partner at the time, Dave Craig showed the prototype of what they were working on at a tournament in New York in June of 1988 and I was already well into the process. Enough so that I offered to help them finish their design in exchange for some sources on components. I was not at all interested in production of such equipment at the time, but was determined to have a semi for myself so as not to aggravate an old shoulder injury farther. Another important fact is that their attempt at making a semi with pneumatic automation never really made it to market. After I got mine running and called Dave with the info that they would need to finish theirs, including a regulator design that would fit inside the gun, AGS had decided to not market the gun because it was too complicated. In my deal with Dave Craig, I agreed to not build more of them for a period of time and in that I am a man of my word, I upheld that agreement even though AGS had chosen not to market the equipment. I was quite happy to have the only functional, gravity fed semi on the field. By the way, the first semi autos utilized the same system that we use now. You mentioned a "sentinel" valve as being used on the AGS version. Wrong again. The valve that they were trying to get to work was a standard Clippard pneumatics 4-way valve, model FV-4. Quite similar to the 4-way valves used today, except that it is spring return operation. That's the main reason the gun wouldn't fire effectively; there was no means to time the gun to set the cycles of operation effectively. In my design, I modified the 4-way valve that I got from AGS to remove the spring return and latter chose to use a Humphrey valve model 4PPX on my rifle conversions and later in pistol setups as well. The Humphrey 4PPX valve is still used to this day on the semi auto rifles that we build and is the design that bud copied exactly in the 4-way valves that were made for the 'cocker until the 2000 model. He copied exactly, the internal workings of the Humphrey valve to the point that parts from either are completely interchangeable. The only difference between the valves was the positions of the hose barbs. As you know, a couple of my older guns have been stolen recently during trips to southern cal. but I still have a couple around that predate anything built by WGP by quite some time. Some of those even have sliding triggers
That provided easier access to control the 4-way over a pivoting trigger. Coincidentally, I have to wonder why the AutoCocker bears such a close resemblance in the layout and even the internals of some of the components.

Now, you folks can play all the games that you want with image and reputation but you best get your facts straight before you start trying to make yourselves look better at my expense. I will no longer let it slide as I have in years past. In fact, I know a way that we can settle this once and for all. How about we both (Bud and I) set for a polygraph (lie detector) exam. He can tell his story and I'll tell mine and we can let everyone see who is telling the truth? Come on Bud, let's get it on and get this over with.

Sincerely,

Glenn Palmer
Owner: Palmer's Pursuit Shop
Developer of the automation system used in the WGP Autococker.

cc: to every one that I know of.
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Old 04-21-2001, 03:12 PM #2
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I don't feel like reading that so can you summarize it? Why did you censor APG?
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Old 04-21-2001, 07:58 PM #3
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Sounds like this controversy will end in a fist fight.
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Old 05-02-2001, 08:46 AM #4
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im definitely with palmer on this. i like the way that he cooly and quietly goes about making some the best mechanical guns and custom work on the market. bud orr tends to be full of crap alot, and he prolly will try to eat glenn. but i hope justice prevails.
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Old 05-02-2001, 04:22 PM #5
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palmer makes excellent products (i'd give my left nut for a blazer). i'd much rather take a blazer over a cocker. i cant knock cockers cause they rule. just not as much as palmer stuff.
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Old 06-03-2001, 03:40 PM #6
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rofl, Bud eat Glenn... that's funny. To summarize, Urban Assault, apparently Bud tried to take credit for inventing the pneumatic system used on the 'Cocker, and Glenn got pissed and wrote down his version of the story.

P.S. Why did you edit the name of the magazine? What was it? PGI, APG, or something?
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Old 06-03-2001, 07:40 PM #7
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It's APG, CO2 Mail is in APG.
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Old 06-04-2001, 05:33 PM #8
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Im not gonna take sides cause i think both companies make outstanding guns, but from what i know, bud got his design patented first which is what counts.

For example. It doesnt matter if i came up with windows a year before Bill Gates if he was the first one to patent it.
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Old 06-04-2001, 05:51 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by xoniceguyox
palmer makes excellent products (i'd give my left nut for a blazer). i'd much rather take a blazer over a cocker. i cant knock cockers cause they rule. just not as much as palmer stuff.
Not me,I'd give my right nut for a blazer. Hehehehehe I have a cocker with palmer pneus....mmmmm
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Old 06-08-2001, 10:56 AM #10
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Glenn Palmer can suck my d1ck. He may have come up with it first but he's a damn d1ck head. My brother bought a Quickswithc a while back and the stupid thing came broken. So Glenn told him to send it in and then had the audacity to charge him to repair it cause he said that he had messed around with it and fu(ked it up, even when it came that way. If Glenn is so smart, how come Worr Games is a much larger company than his.
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Old 06-09-2001, 12:43 PM #11
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APG was the magazine. It was cencored because it sucks IMO
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Old 06-09-2001, 01:03 PM #12
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that is trure, glenn charged me 20 dollars to service a quickswitch that CAME broken. the damn thing costed 40 dollars then another 20 to fix it when they have a "1 year warrenty" i think their warranty is the biggest load of crap. if you read it, it says opening anyhting (including the quickswithc) voids the warranty. who doesnt oppen up their 3 way to look into it and clean it. so by basic cleaning YOU VOID YOUR WARRANTY. plus hes a huge basterd. he makes nice stuff but shockteck is comign out with really nice stuff and other companies on the rise.

the purpose of his fight to always say he invented it first is a cry for attention. who cares who did it first, i care who does it at a good quality and with an affordable price. which is worr games. True bud and jeff alwas say they did it first. WHO CARES. they probably do it cause palmer likes to cry. there is NOT A LETTER i dont see glenn bragging about how he used it first. and btw, all the 4 ways and rams and stufff were used from other industries, so why the hell should they argue, they used something that wasnt even a new idea, just a way of recock. maybe if they came out with the idea from scratch without any prior instruments to use it would be worth argueing. its retarded and everyone knows about the cat fights between bud/jeff and palmer.
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Old 06-09-2001, 02:29 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bigfoot16
Im not gonna take sides cause i think both companies make outstanding guns, but from what i know, bud got his design patented first which is what counts.

For example. It doesnt matter if i came up with windows a year before Bill Gates if he was the first one to patent it.

P.S. If it did come down to a fight, my money is on Bud. THe thought reminds me of fat bastard.

" I'm bigger than you are, I'm higher on the food chain, GET IN MY BELLY!"

i don't remember bud having any substantial design patents on the cocker.........

and glen has every right to be pissed off, he is telling the truth.

his designs were around long before anyone else has a "working" semi. and his was the first one that actually worked for quite some time.

Bud did make a lot of money, but nobody has the customer loyalty that Glenn Palmer has. i've owned 2 of his guns and would still own 2 if some bastard hadn't stolen my typhoon.

this problem will never go away. it's just one of those rivalry things.

-y
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Old 06-11-2001, 03:55 PM #14
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It seems to me that since bud own's a giant company already, he's trying to turn everyone on to the autococker... saying that he invented the auto-cocking system. I think the greed has gone to his head. Just my $0.02
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Old 07-03-2001, 10:40 PM #15
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Angry

People really piss me off when they start putting down the fore-fathers of our sport! How are all of you to judge? Did any of you create one of the greatest non-electric semi's of all time? Or make the best pneumatics and regulators in the sport?

It's unfortunate that these two paintball icons have to come to blows about their contributions to the sport.

I've been playing since 1987. It's no accident that Im on my 4th Autococker now ...(oddly enough, it's a Palmerized Cocker.) I'm too old fashion to cross over to the Darkside and buy an E-gun. And those workhorse's we call Cockers are just tough to beat!

As for Palmer stuff, all of my Cockers have had Palmer pnuematics up front, and Stabizers too. Ive owned a Typhoon, Stoker, and a Palmerized Cocker presently. I've met the man at the Michigan Monster Game last year. And sent him countless emails about gun mods, and always recieved a return email the next day or so.

To sum things up: They both probally deserve more credit and recognition than what they get.

Take care,
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Old 06-21-2004, 11:02 AM #16
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cockers will own no matter what

end of story
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Old 06-21-2004, 11:08 AM #17
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seef your a ****ing retard. Go kill yourself you ****ing *****.
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Old 06-21-2004, 12:40 PM #18
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it comes down to the rule of stand up comedy........the first on to say the joke on t.v. is the person to get credit for it.........no matter who wrote it. it sucks but it is the same way in this case. their was a few guys that were working on the thing they are talking about. but bud was th first one to get to market so the rest of them can cry al they want but bud will have the last laugh. hahahahahahah all the way to the bank.....
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Old 06-21-2004, 01:21 PM #19
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i'm not a fan of palmer stuff... reliable, but slow and clunky... there guns kick like a mofo too
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Old 06-21-2004, 01:24 PM #20
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I know that Craig Palmers is a PIMP. If you are reading this craig this is Phil Chesters friend at last years IAO. Craige is a very very kind person and I remember him fixing a kids blazer that was broke for free. The kid dropped his gun on a concrete floor and broke a part off his gun, craig laughed, took the stupid kids gun, and fixed it for free. This does matter in the paintball world because wouldnt you be pissed of if you created the first semi auto gun that changed the whole world of paintball, and the guy you showed how it worked, went out on his own, stoll your idea, marketed your idea, and then had the nerves to say publicly that he had indeed invented the first semi auto. Patents or no patents that is still really ****ed up and I see why Palmers is so pissed. Thats my two cents.
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Old 06-21-2004, 01:46 PM #21
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You guys realize this is almost a 3 year old thread...right?

...
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