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Old 05-14-2009, 08:45 PM #64
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Well whatever gets viewers/readers.
The media is a business and crap like that sells.
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:51 PM #65
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first off.

everyone who has claimed the NAACP seeks "equality" misunderstands the definition of equality.

the NAACP seeks PARITY


equality means the same rules apply to all people regardless of race religion etc. ( the ideals of MLK, the last great civil rights leader. )

PARITY means everyones outcome is the same ( or close ) an EXTREME example of parity is communism. all employees make the same wage regardless of skill or position.

this is essentially what the NAACP wants. PARITY. not equality.

(please note I said communism was an EXTREME example of parity, the NAACP are not a communist orgonization. but they do seek parity, and they do destroy equality. )



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Quote:
ending pay discrimination[women not getting equal wages]
for the record, there is a wage gap because women tend to enter into lower paying jobs, like yoga instructor, secretary, nurse, all kinds of care giver jobs.

the "wage gap" stats were determined using an average female wage versus an average male wage without regard for their chosen fields.

the wage gap is another PC lie.
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:10 PM #66
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Originally Posted by tv's jon dore View Post
the wage gap is another PC lie.
Yes, because women have definitely had equal access to the upper echelons of power in this country. There have been just as many female CEOs of Fortune 500 companies as men. We've had tons of female presidents, and women's suffrage happened hundreds of years ago.
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Originally Posted by CrazyLittle: Sapiens is a species. NASCAR is a RACE!!!
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:27 PM #67
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Originally Posted by shaka zulu View Post
Yes, because women have definitely had equal access to the upper echelons of power in this country. There have been just as many female CEOs of Fortune 500 companies as men. We've had tons of female presidents, and women's suffrage happened hundreds of years ago.
I could say the same thing about male care givers and add just as many little faces to try to make my point seem more valid.

I could say the same thing about male social workers. or day care workers, or paliative care givers.

your sarcasm is a great way to make people think "this guy obviously knows what hes talking about" but it doesnt address the issue that women choose to enter into lower paying careers.

we do what we are good at, and women are good at nurturing. not to say that ALL women are and not to say that there arent a slew of ball busting business women out there. there ARE. but the FACT is that more women CHOOSE to be stay at home mothers than men ( stay at home fathers ) they have a choice. there are breast pumps and I know I would LOVE to be a stay at home father for a year or 2.

they CHOOSE.

more women CHOOSE to go into the relatively low paying social work or care giver jobs. that is their CHOICE. they could work in mines as ticketed welders or trades people without ANY wage descrepencies. they could make very good money in the mining industry and some DO make this choice. I have personally met 2 women who decided to work in the steel fab/mining industry and made a KILLING. they got along well with the other employees and did their job well. most women CANNOT do this. most men could NOT handle dealing with 20 screaming kids in a day care.

ifr you REALLY want pay equity then stop *****ing and start paying 160$ a day for 8 hrs of day care.

anyone who is NOT willing to pay 160$ for a day of daycare, or an extra 100$ a day to keep your elderly parents ( or grandparents ) in a care home can stop *****ing about pay equity.

edit: at 5 children per care giver 160$ per 8 hr shift = 100$ per hour per care giver.
it is not uncommon for a shop paying its employees 20 to 30$/hr to charge them out at about 80 to 100$/hr
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:30 PM #68
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I'll tell you what. Prove your statement. You don't want smilies then give me something more than conjecture.
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Originally Posted by CrazyLittle: Sapiens is a species. NASCAR is a RACE!!!
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:33 PM #69
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you want me to prove that more women choose to enter into care giver careers?

no. I dont need to.
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:49 PM #70
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Originally Posted by tv's jon dore View Post
you want me to prove that more women choose to enter into care giver careers?

no. I dont need to.
Sure, pick the easiest part of all that mess you just spouted to prove. No! Prove that the "PC notion" that the disparity in pay is because women are inherently nurturers and most go fpr the caregivers jobs. Prove the disparity is because of that as you've previously stated.

Oh, and do remember that correlation does not equal causation. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by CrazyLittle: Sapiens is a species. NASCAR is a RACE!!!
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:49 PM #71
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Originally Posted by shaka zulu View Post
Yes, because women have definitely had equal access to the upper echelons of power in this country. There have been just as many female CEOs of Fortune 500 companies as men. We've had tons of female presidents, and women's suffrage happened hundreds of years ago.
The past is the past and is totally irrelevant, they can do as they please now and have ran out of excuses!
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:53 PM #72
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Originally Posted by tv's jon dore View Post
you want me to prove that more women choose to enter into care giver careers?

no. I dont need to.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/equalpayact1.html

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In 2009, President Obama signed the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Restoration Act, which allows victims of pay discrimination to file a complaint with the government against their employer within 180 days of their last paycheck. Previously, victims were only allowed 180 days from the date of the first unfair paycheck. This Act is named after a former employee of Goodyear who alleged that she was paid 15-40 percent less than her male counterparts, which was later found to be accurate. President Obama has vowed to reduce the wage gap between the genders: women currently make approximately 80 cents for every dollar that men earn.
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:11 AM #73
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The past is the past and is totally irrelevant, they can do as they please now and have ran out of excuses!
So you can say this about women..


But you can't say the same about "colored people" ?
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:39 AM #74
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I will rephrase because I think an assumption may have been made about my stance.

I wont say that inequality does not happen. but I dont believe that it happens on the scale necissary to cause a noticable wage gap.

NAACP.... your quote states NOTHING about carreer choice or specialization. it is a historical account of womens rights and some random uncited statistics.

It does not surprise me that obama would act on this. the female vote is 50% and there are ample lobbyists for womens rights orgonizations. I dont think that I have to go into detail about why obama ( or any president for that matter ) would act inorder to appease any number of special interest groups ( gun lobbyists, womens rights, pharmaceutical companies )




http://www.state.tn.us/sos/ecw/Mohiu...p%20Report.pdf
Quote:
to fully appreciate the nature of the wage gap between men and
women. There are certain prevailing myths about the wage gap that need to be dispelled. On the one hand, the earnings ratio is sometimes misunderstood as being for men and women “doing the same work.” This is not true because if employers do not pay the same wages to men and women who do substantially equal work, involving equal skill, effort, and responsibility, and performed under similar conditions in the same establishment, it would be a violation the Equal Pay Act of 1963, and hence illegal.
there is a law in place. obama amended it.


this paper comes to the conclusion that women make less than men due to their choice in careers as well as the fact that women tend to take jobs with fewer working hours, and a greater chance to take extended breaks ( for child rearing ).
socialization.

when these factors are taken into account most studies claim that 25 to 40% of the wage difference is un accounted for. ( ie. due to descrimination )
however the 48% wage difference between male and female physicians can be accounted for by choice in specialization.

Quote:
It is also noteworthy that the concentration of women in a few
occupations, known as “occupational segregation,” increases rather than
decrease as we consider more detailed occupational classifications. Thus,
within the physician and surgeon category, women are more concentrated in the relatively lower-paid specialties of pediatrics and family practice rather than the higher-paid specialties of gynecology and surgery.
page 5

Quote:
Some believe that we should control not only for education and work experience differences, but also occupational and industry differences so that we compare men and women in same occupations, same industry, with same education and work experience.
page 6

this is not how these "proofs" of wage inequity are discovered.

they take ( for example) all welders and find that women make 60% of what men make.

easy to say "prejudice" but this does NOT take into account how many female welders work high paying jobs. like high steel construction, mine work, pipe line welding, etc.

if the majority of women CHOOSE to work in shops and NOT to work in camp then they will make less money.

as stated in the article, the majority of female physicians choose NOT to enter into high paid specialties and opt to stay in family practice.

now if you have a .edu or .gov citation that DOES compare like jobs to like jobs I will pay your arguement more attention. for example reconstructive plastic surgeon to reconstructive plastic surgeon.... NOT reconstructive plastic surgeon to commercial plastic surgeon. and certainly not physician to physician
or another example might be comparing a civil engineer who specializes in building logging bridges to a civil engineer who specializes in building logging bridges, not civil engineer to civil ( civil covers a wide range of engineering )

another example ( off the top of my head ) might be that women tend to be less aggressive. as a salesman this would affect their income ( assuming pay is based on sales ) one could say "discrimination" when it is really an inherrant ability for men to be more aggressive and close a sale.


I have worked with many women in many different carreers. I have worked for women, and I have had women work under me. and they have never been payed less than an equivalent male worker. this could NOT happen in a union job or a government job. so I still dont buy it.
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:50 AM #75
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Originally Posted by shaka zulu View Post
Sure, pick the easiest part of all that mess you just spouted to prove. No! Prove that the "PC notion" that the disparity in pay is because women are inherently nurturers and most go fpr the caregivers jobs. Prove the disparity is because of that as you've previously stated.

Oh, and do remember that correlation does not equal causation. Thank you.


the above post was for you.

and note that socialization is a large factor, they do not discount descrimination, however they do point out that one line of thought.....(my line of thought) is that an adequate statistical survey has not been done. classifying civil engineer with civil engineer is entirely inadequate.

Quote:
A comparison of the distribution of men and women across more than
200 occupations in the U.S.4 shows that women are especially concentrated in
administrative support occupations (such as secretaries and administrative
assistants, file clerks, bookkeeper, computer operator, customer servicerepresentative, postal service clerk, reservation and transport ticket agent), and
in service occupations (such as childcare workers, waitresses, hairdressers and
cosmetologists, cooks and maids, and housekeeping cleaners).
page 2/3
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:59 AM #76
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Ok, so if an adequate statistical survey has yet to be done, then both our points are conjecture or educated guesses with no sound proof.....yet.

amiright?

I still think my point bears out when we're talking high power jobs. CEOs, CFOs, etc. etc. I'll see if I can find any studies to support my pov.
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Originally Posted by CrazyLittle: Sapiens is a species. NASCAR is a RACE!!!
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Old 05-15-2009, 01:02 AM #77
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Originally Posted by tv's jon dore View Post
NAACP.... your quote states NOTHING about carreer choice or specialization. it is a historical account of womens rights and some random uncited statistics.
Reread it, it says that women currently make 80 cents per every dollar that a man makes.

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So you can say this about women..


But you can't say the same about "colored people" ?
I was just being sarcastic.
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Old 05-15-2009, 01:06 AM #78
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Originally Posted by shaka zulu View Post
Ok, so if an adequate statistical survey has yet to be done, then both our points are conjecture or educated guesses with no sound proof.....yet.

amiright?
that sounds pretty good.

edit: your ninja edit is true. there are more males in ceo jobs, engineering, etc. however I am stating that women arent having any doors shut on them, they are simply choosing to open different doors.


I personally feel that gender HAS been detrimental ( historically ) but in todays society with "new" legislation in place and from personal experience I dont believe it is a large problem. I think that statistics can be bent to "prove" whatever you like, and without a "mens rights" movement to counter the large womens rights groups I think that womens rights have been able to use these stats and because of the PC air inn society people feel obligated to believe it, or become so indoctrinated by hearing it that they assume it to be true.

so in short, I dont think it CAN be proven or disproven. but I would be more concerned if I saw the same wage gap and knew more male nurses, and more male daycare workers, and more female medical specialists, or female structural engineers.
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Old 05-15-2009, 01:12 AM #79
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Whatever the breakout, there certainly are numerous studies that show discrimination -- however unconscious -- still exists. For instance:

* A recent Cornell study found that female job applicants with children would be less likely to get hired, and if they do, would be paid a lower salary than other candidates, male and female. By contrast, male applicants with children would be offered a higher salary than non-fathers and other mothers.

* A recent Carnegie Mellon study found that female job applicants who tried to negotiate a higher salary were less likely to be hired by male managers, while male applicants were not.

Then there's the phenomenon of wages going down when more women move into a field.

A few years back, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology found that its women scientists were routinely given less pay, space, funding and rewards than their male colleagues.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/21/comm...hadi/index.htm
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Old 05-15-2009, 03:17 AM #80
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Old 05-15-2009, 06:16 AM #81
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So you can say this about women..


But you can't say the same about "colored people" ?
I think young folk that have been mingled would say the same. I am not so sure about older folk. I mean the US only abolished slavery 144 years ago, it then took another 100 for colored folk to get equal rights under the law. And now everyone expects those that have only had those rights for 49 years to just say everything is peachy? Really? I could see that being the case if the law instantly made everyone forget the past, and instantly color blind, but it doesn't. There are millions of Americans that were raised during the years where segregation took place. I am sure you could find quite a few that thought it to be a good idea. Shoot I bet you could find some that still think it is a good idea (on both sides). So until those people all die, and the remaining folk become fully integrated (no I have a black/white friend crap) we will still have racial problems.
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Old 05-15-2009, 07:37 AM #82
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Why the **** do I even come to this website anymore.
The same reason I do... I paid for ASM...
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