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Old 11-17-2008, 10:30 AM #85
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Originally Posted by ihateyourface View Post
Go play 2 7 man games. you'll be as tired as playing 2 full x-ball lite matches.
You have got to be kidding.
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Old 11-17-2008, 10:32 AM #86
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Originally Posted by xboxdave13 View Post
^^the exact point I was trying to get at with my post.

most people work hard to train there fingers and mind to be able to hammer a trigger consistantly, then once they can, they have to switch hands and start all over.
If by "most people" you mean NOBODY WITH AN ELECTRONIC GUN, then sure. How many people play with non-electronic guns nowadays? At national events at least, almost none.

Quote:
that practice to get and advantage over the player your dueling goes out the window with ramping. (I cant hammer the trigger for crap, that doesnt mean the guy that can should loose his advantage on me. ultimately he has worked hard to get that little advantage.)

cheating will be an element of any sport, harsher penalties for cheaters will help minimize it. make an example from a few cheaters who can be caught and the rest will see.
Here's the thing:

You have NO idea what you are talking about.

Virtually *NOBODY* playing national-level paintball with an electronic gun is using ANY gun skills related to pulling the trigger. The boards make it easy to shoot fast because the boards are not really semi-auto. You can't catch the people who are really trying to cheat because they are too good to get caught, so the only people you can catch are the people who are unintentionally cheating - mainly because they just don't realize (and you yourself are a prime example of this) that the reason their gun shoots so fast isn't because they have "learned" to shoot fast, but simply because the board is adding shots. So sure, you can make the penalties harsher, but then you're just letting the cheaters get away with cheating and selecting random honest (but technically uninformed) players to receive major penalties.


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Last edited by raehl : 11-17-2008 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 11-17-2008, 11:33 AM #87
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Old 11-17-2008, 12:35 PM #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raehl View Post
If by "most people" you mean NOBODY WITH AN ELECTRONIC GUN, then sure. How many people play with non-electronic guns nowadays? At national events at least, almost none.



Here's the thing:

You have NO idea what you are talking about.

Virtually *NOBODY* playing national-level paintball with an electronic gun is using ANY gun skills related to pulling the trigger. The boards make it easy to shoot fast because the boards are not really semi-auto. You can't catch the people who are really trying to cheat because they are too good to get caught, so the only people you can catch are the people who are unintentionally cheating - mainly because they just don't realize (and you yourself are a prime example of this) that the reason their gun shoots so fast isn't because they have "learned" to shoot fast, but simply because the board is adding shots. So sure, you can make the penalties harsher, but then you're just letting the cheaters get away with cheating and selecting random honest (but technically uninformed) players to receive major penalties.


- Chris
electronic or not one pull-one shot fired IS semi-auto. triggers have gotten easy and smoother. erganomics of guns have gotten better. resulting in ease of trigger walking. however if your gun is shooting more than one pull-one shot, than by definition its NOT semi. you sir clearly have more experience, i have very limited experience (almost none) with psp/xball, at anything more than a rec level. but I can clearly see when two players are dueling with semi-auto guns there can be an advantage to the player with more experience/training/practice regarding trigger speed.
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Old 11-17-2008, 12:37 PM #89
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tis called bounce
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Old 11-17-2008, 12:45 PM #90
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tis called bounce
then by definition its not really semi...
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Old 11-17-2008, 01:49 PM #91
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And it's added to every single electronic gun out there... Manufacturers' code isn't as wonderful and pure as you'd like to believe. Sure, some triggers may be easier to walk and whatnot, but you better believe that in order to make sure their gun shoots faster than their competitions' they throw little nuances into the code that starts to add shots once you really get on the trigger... You can't technically prove it either since it only kicks in after a certain ROF is acheived and it isn't full-blown ramping.

The robot is a joke too (if they even use that anymore??) so don't even try to bring that in...

And you're exactly right, by definition it's not really semi. That's what we're arguing, that with the advent of electronic boards semi-auto went out the flippin window. No matter whether you think you're shooting true semi-auto or not, you're gun shoots more balls than you pull the trigger, I can almost promise you that.

In the end trigger pull regulations are just too hard to enforce... There isn't a really feasible way to do it. There are going to be people who sneak in illegal equipment and exploit the advantage they gain with it. The way the PSP worded their mode of fire rules makes it incredibly easy to enforce and all but eliminates advantages some players or teams may try to get by using illegal firing modes. Breakout modes are pretty much useless now too because of the radar guns the PSP has... They can measure your velocity and ROF from like 5 feet behind you so good luck starting/stopping a cheater mode before refs can check you.
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Old 11-17-2008, 01:55 PM #92
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i've played in both leagues. the major differences is xball is offensive, and in my opinion 7 man tends to be more defensive. yes my opinion is biased because i enjoy xball more. and i will be honest when i started playin national events, it was 7 man nppl tampa in 05. I had no interest in xball...but that was only because i had not had the opportunity to play it. i'm not doggin 7man....if its your thing...go for it. I just think its more of a sit and wait for them to make a mistake game, rather than break out and shove it down they're throat game. its understandable though, you have one shot at each game. if you screw up...your out. thats why people tend to sit and wait more. xball you have more chances. ok i'm done
I think x-ball would be a lot better to watch WITHOUT the coaching. Almost no one ever gets surprised by anything, and surprises are hella-fun to watch.
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Old 11-17-2008, 01:57 PM #93
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we took 2nd overall and didnt have a paint deal...so yes...your misinformed...
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:32 PM #94
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I am a Milsim/ Scenario player myself, the CPT/ Founder of my team. and I would honnestly say that I have never played/ tried either 7-man nor 5-man. I would say I see more tactics that change "on-the-fly" in the 7-man/ NPPL and then in 5-man its faster, more blunt excitement.

I will be honnest and that is, I like watching paintball, regardless of what league/ style... well as long as its not rednecks shooting each other ahah

I will say that there is something to be learned from all sides of paintball. weather you play Scenario/ NPPL/ PSP/ Xball whatever! you can learn something from ALL of them.
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:49 PM #95
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Originally Posted by flarkey25 View Post
And it's added to every single electronic gun out there... Manufacturers' code isn't as wonderful and pure as you'd like to believe. Sure, some triggers may be easier to walk and whatnot, but you better believe that in order to make sure their gun shoots faster than their competitions' they throw little nuances into the code that starts to add shots once you really get on the trigger... You can't technically prove it either since it only kicks in after a certain ROF is acheived and it isn't full-blown ramping.

The robot is a joke too (if they even use that anymore??) so don't even try to bring that in...

And you're exactly right, by definition it's not really semi. That's what we're arguing, that with the advent of electronic boards semi-auto went out the flippin window. No matter whether you think you're shooting true semi-auto or not, you're gun shoots more balls than you pull the trigger, I can almost promise you that.

In the end trigger pull regulations are just too hard to enforce... There isn't a really feasible way to do it. There are going to be people who sneak in illegal equipment and exploit the advantage they gain with it. The way the PSP worded their mode of fire rules makes it incredibly easy to enforce and all but eliminates advantages some players or teams may try to get by using illegal firing modes. Breakout modes are pretty much useless now too because of the radar guns the PSP has... They can measure your velocity and ROF from like 5 feet behind you so good luck starting/stopping a cheater mode before refs can check you.

imo thats like saying "wipping shots cannot be 100% enforced, and everyone does it, so lets allow it."

people are more willing to let semi die because it levels the playing field that much more for the newer player vs. the veteran.

dont get me wrong I dont remotely think that fast fingers alone can win a match, its just one more skill taken away from players to try and level the playing field.
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:53 PM #96
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no i do not have add...i just think if your going to pay $2000 you should get to play more than 7 games....

while i think the ramping thing does take something out of it....and i dont think its necessary at all (probably thought up by the paint companies...cuz last time i played an xball event we shot like 75 cases...) i just like the whole you play a team a bunch of times so you KNOW who the winner is. all it takes is one lucky ball and things can change.

at least i'm not the only one though...
I definitely see your point. While I used to play nppl, PSP is more fun to watch for people that have very little interest in paintball (aka myself now). But nppl as an organization is the only one I think that will be able to survive this recession [depression].
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Old 11-17-2008, 03:12 PM #97
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No guns add shots! Timmies are just really fast guns! where did I put that dodgy thing?
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Old 11-17-2008, 03:25 PM #98
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Originally Posted by xboxdave13 View Post
imo thats like saying "wipping shots cannot be 100% enforced, and everyone does it, so lets allow it."

people are more willing to let semi die because it levels the playing field that much more for the newer player vs. the veteran.

dont get me wrong I dont remotely think that fast fingers alone can win a match, its just one more skill taken away from players to try and level the playing field.
See, that's where I disagree... Wiping shots can be enforced pretty easily. It's pretty easy to see whether or not you're hit. Sure there are still those that are going to push it and some that will get away with it, but trying to compare hiding a paint mark a good 1-2 inches in diameter to electronic programming just isn't going to fly.
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Old 11-17-2008, 03:25 PM #99
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I'm always amused by the people who believe things that are just plain not true.

"semi-auto" guns shoot every bit as fast as ramping guns. If you don't believe me, just ask al the players who are convinced they're shooting 18 bps in real semi, or all the players mad about 13.3 bps ramping because they think they're shooting faster than that.

Ramping guns shoot 13.3. "semi-auto" guns shoot 13.3 AND UP.

Virtually *EVERY* electronic gun on the market ramps, even in semi-auto mode. If it didn't, you wouldn't buy it because you'd think it shoots slow.

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Old 11-17-2008, 03:27 PM #100
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And no this as not KSpica I totally Failed he was signed on my account and I used his name so this is not KSpica
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Old 11-17-2008, 03:28 PM #101
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If you can't hit it with one ball, you're not going to hit it with 13.3... Ramping just makes people who suck miss you more often. Believe me, I know... I personally completely suck at laning/running and gunning. I can't hit crap, even while ramping. A few other guys on the team however, will shoot anyone going anywhere whenever they want. They did it when ramping was 15, and they're doing it at 13.3, and I'm sure in semi they could do it too.
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Old 11-17-2008, 03:29 PM #102
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I'm always amused by the people who believe things that are just plain not true.

"semi-auto" guns shoot every bit as fast as ramping guns. If you don't believe me, just ask al the players who are convinced they're shooting 18 bps in real semi, or all the players mad about 13.3 bps ramping because they think they're shooting faster than that.

Ramping guns shoot 13.3. "semi-auto" guns shoot 13.3 AND UP.

Virtually *EVERY* electronic gun on the market ramps, even in semi-auto mode. If it didn't, you wouldn't buy it because you'd think it shoots slow.

- Chris

Your quite wrong. The ammount of people who can shoot 18 rounds per second is very few, its irrelvent to the argument but there is alot of people out there who claim they can shoot it,

Every electronic gun ramps? Have you ever played NPPL, the refs shoot your guns before every game and often they say "To bouncy cant play" Happened to my team personally, and many others.

Lets hypotheticaly take someon who can shoot 18 rouns per second. And lets even say he can consitantly hold for the sake of your argument that were talking to these kids who shoot 18 BPS.

18 for 5 seconds goes to load and shoots 3-6 bps per second for about 5-8 seconds. so 30 (+- however many you want) balls over that period of time. So in 13 seconds you just shot about 140 balls. 10.7 BPS.

And some one who is ramping can shoot 13.3 while loading and holding lanes. This Situation is also only taking into consideration an amazing paintball player who can shoot 18 bps consistanatly, load perfectly and shoot pretty quick while loading. Totally give your argument favor.

-Running and Shooting semi vs ramping? Way way way easier ramping,

-Lanning semi vs ramping? Much easier you can stay very relaxed and shoot a very consitant stream of paint. Which most people cannot shoot as constitant a stream, I for sure cant, or do not know many people who can

Left handed shooting v.s right handed shooting? Way easier ramping.

Ramping ruins alot of paintball, taking away many skillful aspects. And no shooting on semi is much slower than on ramping.
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Old 11-17-2008, 03:51 PM #103
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Your quite wrong. The ammount of people who can shoot 18 rounds per second is very few, its irrelvent to the argument but there is alot of people out there who claim they can shoot it,

Every electronic gun ramps? Have you ever played NPPL, the refs shoot your guns before every game and often they say "To bouncy cant play" Happened to my team personally, and many others.

Lets hypotheticaly take someon who can shoot 18 rouns per second. And lets even say he can consitantly hold for the sake of your argument that were talking to these kids who shoot 18 BPS.

18 for 5 seconds goes to load and shoots 3-6 bps per second for about 5-8 seconds. so 30 (+- however many you want) balls over that period of time. So in 13 seconds you just shot about 140 balls. 10.7 BPS.

And some one who is ramping can shoot 13.3 while loading and holding lanes. This Situation is also only taking into consideration an amazing paintball player who can shoot 18 bps consistanatly, load perfectly and shoot pretty quick while loading. Totally give your argument favor.

-Running and Shooting semi vs ramping? Way way way easier ramping,

-Lanning semi vs ramping? Much easier you can stay very relaxed and shoot a very consitant stream of paint. Which most people cannot shoot as constitant a stream, I for sure cant, or do not know many people who can

Left handed shooting v.s right handed shooting? Way easier ramping.

Ramping ruins alot of paintball, taking away many skillful aspects. And no shooting on semi is much slower than on ramping.

None of this ever would have mattered if the NPPL and PSP didn't change the rules to allow force-fed loaders. We'd still have people using Revvies, Warp Feeds, high-rises and all that crap. But I guess when some of your biggest sponsors are the companies making the paint, any rule that increases revenue is a good rule.

I'm actually shocked that the PSP dropped the ROF cap by 12%. That's gotta eat into the profits.
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Old 11-17-2008, 03:59 PM #104
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i think im one of the few that that likes nppl better, to me (and yes i have played both) psp is too much ramping and too much individual play, nppl puts the team play backing into it and at a semi auto play, puts more skill into it, its a lot harder to walk a trigger and play then one finger a trigger and play, the x is annoying bc it limits it to virtually all sideline and tape play, nppl has a lot of lanes but at least you can play the whole field, and with those lanes you actually are working to make them by walking the trigger, right now xball is just a new fad, it will die soon enough and something new will come up, that's my 2 cents
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Old 11-17-2008, 04:04 PM #105
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right now xball is just a new fad, it will die soon enough and something new will come up, that's my 2 cents
Paintball blowgun fights on a giant moonbounce ftw.
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