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Old 07-25-2008, 03:39 PM #1
MiLLz
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ref decision wins

[url]http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=49907212#post49907212
Quote:
Originally Posted by fodash1 View Post
yeah I really want to see this to. I mean a refs call winning the championship is just poop.
I read this and other similiar posts and I thought:

Here is the nature of paintball: When players ride the edge of legal play & aggressive play near the end of games, the only way to correct rule infractions is to call penalties after the fact, which may result in the points swinging one way or another and the win being determined by a ref decision. Would it be better if the refs put away their penalty flags during the finals?

Case in point: Impact vs. Ironmen at Kansas City 2007. 4 Ironmen run down the field with 10 seconds to go. Not only was this foolish because there was no way the flag would be hung in time, but playing on penalties assessed also showed an Impact victory which was later overturned , ending in an tie breaker (which was also overturned ), eventually resulting in a tie which (you guessed it) was also overturned .

Honestly, many sports commonly determine winners by referee decision. Examples: UFC, Boxing, skateboarding, snowboarding, skiing, and most olympic sports. Penalties assessed have also won games in professional sports such as hockey (penalty shot at time 0:00), basketball (foul shots at time 0:00), etc. How is paintball so different that a ref decision win is unthinkable?

A possible, however sad, difference is that in this paintball league the players are allowed to whine their way into victory and that the league (scared from the Orange County 2006 Joy division-Dynasty debacle) does not consistantly support a ref decision win.
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Last edited by MiLLz : 09-13-2008 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 09-13-2008, 02:56 PM #2
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I posted this in the NPPL forum and got a response from a player who complained about "super refs" that call penalties to receive reactions from the crowds. I was surprised by this player's complaint because in the years I have reffed paintball, I have never met a ref who called a penalty specifically to hear the crowd roar. On the other hand, I have heard the crowd roar as a result of a ref call and then the player blame the call on the ref for various reasons, one being to make the crowd roar. I would like to know if any of the refs here have seen a ref actually try and make the crowd roar.
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Old 09-15-2008, 12:43 PM #3
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The crowd generally roars when they think the ref didn't do his job. Who in their right mind wants to piss off the crowd, their fellow employees and the people they are working for all at once and risk getting fired? That sounds like a pretty odd accusation.
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Old 09-15-2008, 01:25 PM #4
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I am assuming from your post that you were there to watch the KC and OC games? (talking to the OP)
i was... and I witnessed first hand the stupidity of the calls made.
refs are not perfect, and in a sport as fast paced as paintball is, it's very difficult for refs to make timed decisions that potentially have a life and death impact on games... yes that is the nature of the sport - and yes people will continue to complain. The problem is these rules that refs decisions can't be overturned on the field during play. Paintball is different than the other sports you listed in that there is no time between points/penalties to make well thought out decisions that are correct 90% of the time. We have no instant replay to verify that the refs decision is indeed correct, or that the player did indeed commit that penalty. Hence, many ref decisions are made after the game is already played that effect the final outcome. Don't mistake debating/discussion by players and captains with refs after the fact as complaints... a ref can't be everywhere at once, eyes only in one spot and sometimes it is possible that a ref did make a mistake, will be unbiased enough to realize that and overturn his decision. Even with that happening, you can't put players back in the game... and you never will know what could have happened with that guy there - we just have to take it one game at a time and continue to improve the sport and the way it's officiated. The biggest issue is consistency, many of the rules allow for open interpretation by refs and that is where it comes down to players not seeing eye to eye with refs on their decision.

there is controversy over ref decisions in other sports as well... including the patriots ravens game in 07, might have ended the pats winning streak right then and there. can't think of any others because I don't follow a lot of other sports.
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Old 09-16-2008, 12:48 PM #5
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John, I thought so too. I guess that player didn't like a penalty and the crowd happened to roar after it happened.

Fatalkitty, I think it sounds like you are ok with ref decision wins? I can't really tell what you are trying to say but I'll try and deal with the things you did say.

Well, I was on the field at KC and can honestly say the stupidity was not in the original call, rather it was in the players that decided to run down the field with not enough time to get the flag back when they still had the advantage in games won, and then in the subsequent flip flopping in the aftermath of that. Anyways that aside, I am not sure what you are trying to say.

Allowing the overturning of calls during a game is an incentive for players to try and jedi mind trick refs into second guessing every call they make which is not fair to the team that eliminated the player. Hence my "whine their way into victory" comment. Plain and simple it causes chaos on the field and that chaos and controversy is what we both are trying to avoid in the first place.

The rulebook for the NPPL is defintely very open ended, and the only way to consistantly enforce it is to be particularly stingy on every rule because players are constantly trying to circumvent the system (that's their job, I would too). However, players don't seem to like the stingy but consistant approach either. Hence various complaints on "141 happy refs" who are actually the most consistant refs on the field.

Today, when the viewers are clammoring for a free webcast and refuse to pay a modest $10 fee I don't see how an instant replay is possible. Maybe the league should charge each team an extra $15 per player to and call the webcast an "instant replay system," nevermind how blurry or jumpy it is and nevermind that it would only be on one field. How do you justify that for teams that never make it to sunday?
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:32 AM #6
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The players never like a penalty, but the crowd's reaction could simply be because they like the team that was penalized or it could have even be in support of the penalty.

A webcast can't fix calls and $15 a player won't get you any type of useful instant replay. Plus, what would you do with it anyway? It only works on football because everybody stops after each play. You can't go back and fix reffing mistakes after a game is done. That's like using the instant replay on a football game after the game is over.
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