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Old 09-10-2008, 12:34 PM #22
Big P
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Yep. SOA is the only people flying the AH-6 in the military now, but still. Its nice to see them floating around. I worked on one a few weeks back...and worked on one in April.
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Old 09-10-2008, 12:38 PM #23
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as long as the 160th SOAR still uses them, im guessing they will stay.

Either that or a better version is made.
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Old 09-10-2008, 12:48 PM #24
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Oh the task force loves them. They are not going away anytime soon. The M model is in a class all itself.....though the new ARH-70a (replacement for the Kiowa) will be pretty bad when it hits the field.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:00 PM #25
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same with the AH-1Z. Even though its just a variation of the cobra, will be better then just a mockup of an older model
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:04 PM #26
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Oh... I love the Zulu cobra. A wonderful machine also. I love the fact that they developed the Yankee model huey and the Zulu cobra at the same time to work together.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:09 PM #27
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work together in what regards
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:16 PM #28
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work together in what regards
Their ability to work as a team. The Yankee huey has capability to transfer video and target date from its sensor to the cobra now. This is not a military secret as it has been a great selling point for both aircraft.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:21 PM #29
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oh well then that is pretty badass
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:41 PM #30
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Yes, the ARH will be able to do it with both the cobra and the apache.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:42 PM #31
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Having worked in the military helo program for years now, I can tell you flying a sim is NOTHING like having stick time in the real thing. The sims are made to help the jock at the stick become comfortable with pushing buttons and the basic operations of the aircraft itself.

Nothing beats true air time. I work with many pilots here, a great many of them are former SOA task force guys. They all agree, if you want to fly for fun, Army aviation is not the place

If you want to learn to fly a fun aircraft, fly the 47g or f airframes. All digital cockpits and very advanced. These 47s have to slow down to be escorted by apaches so that should tell you what they are like.

Got big nuts? Fly a AH-6 little bird gunship! Little bird Guns drivers have a high demand rate because the rate they drop peopel from the program for not being good enough is off the charts.

Myself, and that is IMHO...the apache is one of the biggest wastes of money the army has undertaken.
i disagree, the Comanche was. if you look at the purpose for which the Apache was developed, destroying thousands of Soviet tanks pouring into the plains of Europe, it makes more sense. now that all the combat we see is urban and against infantry almost exclusively, it seems like a waste.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:56 PM #32
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i disagree, the Comanche was. if you look at the purpose for which the Apache was developed, destroying thousands of Soviet tanks pouring into the plains of Europe, it makes more sense. now that all the combat we see is urban and against infantry almost exclusively, it seems like a waste.
Well the only two comanches that were developed to fly were both here in my lab for some time. They have left to be put on display though...but to a point I have to disagree with you on that one.

The comanche program was killed by scope creep. Meaning that people kept tacking on extra requirements before the baseline of the mission was finished. My program was started with what we call comanche termination funds and equipment. 85% of the technology that was developed is still being developed for use on other aircraft, or has been deployed into the aircraft fleet. The money was not wasted there so much at that point.

I feel if if they could have developed and deplyed a base model if you will, THEN started expanding its role, it would have been one of the best aircraft ever built.

One such technology that was developed from the comanche is the CAAS sysem, (Common Avionics Architecture System) being produced by Rockwell Collins.

Like I said though, I disagree to a point. I think the Army themselves were the main cause of the death of the comanche program. The new ARH program is heading that way pretty quick, but in this case, they cant let it because they know that the current fleet of Kiowas cant remain operationl much longer.
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Old 09-10-2008, 02:00 PM #33
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My understanding was that the comanche was a scout chopper. If thats right, seems kinda moot to put a comanche and an apache in the same comparison. It would be like comparing a lambo and a prius. Totally opposite function.
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Old 09-10-2008, 02:10 PM #34
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My understanding was that the comanche was a scout chopper. If thats right, seems kinda moot to put a comanche and an apache in the same comparison. It would be like comparing a lambo and a prius. Totally opposite function.
Yes your correct, but the Army changed that requirement in 89 to be an ARMED SCOUT, then tagged the AH (Attach Helicopter) onto its name....RAH-66. Part of that scope creep that I was speaking of.

Plus you could not fly it if you were left handed. The control stick sat on the RIGHT of the air craft, instead of between ones legs.
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Old 09-10-2008, 02:12 PM #35
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ah, i see. Guess thats their own ******* fault then. Should have let it stay scout and replace the kiowa as intended.
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Old 09-10-2008, 03:13 PM #36
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Having worked in the military helo program for years now, I can tell you flying a sim is NOTHING like having stick time in the real thing. The sims are made to help the jock at the stick become comfortable with pushing buttons and the basic operations of the aircraft itself.

Nothing beats true air time. I work with many pilots here, a great many of them are former SOA task force guys. They all agree, if you want to fly for fun, Army aviation is not the place

If you want to learn to fly a fun aircraft, fly the 47g or f airframes. All digital cockpits and very advanced. These 47s have to slow down to be escorted by apaches so that should tell you what they are like.

Got big nuts? Fly a AH-6 little bird gunship! Little bird Guns drivers have a high demand rate because the rate they drop peopel from the program for not being good enough is off the charts.

Myself, and that is IMHO...the apache is one of the biggest wastes of money the army has undertaken.

Sorry, got off on a rant. I willl dig out some of my pictuers of the CAAS equiped aircraft I work on here and get them posted tonight.

But getting a sim would be helpful just to learn how to fly correct?
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Old 09-10-2008, 04:16 PM #37
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May I ask why the Apache was the biggest waste of money? This is a serious question too, not trying to be sarcastic. It came as a shock to me to hear that, cause when I was on the ground, we would absoloutely without a doubt rather have an Apache over us than a fast mover.
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:24 PM #38
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A sim can help you learn to fly the basics..yes.

Sure Aero, based on the amount of work (read man hours required to maintaince these birds) after deployments, as well as depot work in the field (often done by civy contracters like myself) the cost to actual flying time doing missions over your head is off the charts. The aircraft itself was designed to kill tanks in Europe. The cost that went into getting it stable enough to fly missions in both places we are fighting is also off the charts. For every hour in the air there is X amount of hours going through that bird.

The last thing is the refit of the birds. Its insane what it costs to send the older apaches in for avionics upgrades on an regular basis.

I am thankful that your glad to see a roter on station instead of a jet. The apache is just a nightmare when you look at the money side of things.

The postive side is that our allies love to buy it from us and give us contracts to support them through their lifecycle.
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:41 PM #39
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Yes your correct, but the Army changed that requirement in 89 to be an ARMED SCOUT, then tagged the AH (Attach Helicopter) onto its name....RAH-66. Part of that scope creep that I was speaking of.

Plus you could not fly it if you were left handed. The control stick sat on the RIGHT of the air craft, instead of between ones legs.
Handedness doesn't really matter in a helicopter, you have the collective in your left and the cyclic in your right no matter what hand you have dominant.

I'm not at all interested in the military, but I have always wanted to be a helicopter pilot and hope to do that in college next year. Can't wait to get started.

As far as the Apache deal, yes at this point its not a very viable aircraft. You are exactly right, it was designed and purpose built to load full of Hellfires and kill Russian tanks in eastern Europe. That didn't prove necessary, and while in the first Gulf War it was a bit more tactically efficient (because Saddam had some tanks) now it is almost moot. I hear that in the sandbox they're taking off the Longbow mast-mounted sighting system since they really don't even need them, agreeable since I recall the price of just that is about $3 or so million of the $18 million of the aircraft.

I'm also a huge fan of the Y Huey and the Z Cobra, proven airframes that now perform about as well as their counterparts in the other services. For some reason Marines hate Blackhawks.
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:42 PM #40
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Are the requirements for helicopter crew chief pretty much the same thing? How about (dunno what else you'd call it) Gunner?
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:45 PM #41
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You mean, like, the crew chief of a Blackhawk or something like that? Or like a gunner on an Apache?

I know for a fact to be a gunner on an Apache you have to know how to fly the thing, they all have dual controls.
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:47 PM #42
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You mean, like, the crew chief of a Blackhawk or something like that? Or like a gunner on an Apache?

I know for a fact to be a gunner on an Apache you have to know how to fly the thing, they all have dual controls.
Crew Chief for black hawks, gunner as in bottom seat on a cobra(if they still configure it like that)
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