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Old 07-15-2008, 08:38 PM #148
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I dont think that 2nd meeting was brought by the refs I think it was because someone was screaming about a call.
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Old 07-15-2008, 09:40 PM #149
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Quote:
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I dont think that 2nd meeting was brought by the refs I think it was because someone was screaming about a call.
someone had to organize it
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Old 07-16-2008, 09:39 AM #150
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I don’t agree with Tim’s comment when he said, “And because of the bad reffing at the MPS…”. The way he made it sound is that all events of the MPS has had bad reffing and that is NOT true. In fact, just the last event at DZ, that event had exceptional reffing.

As far as the ultimate calling people out on the sidelines, I was informed that was not happening by the ultimate himself. He told me that he was telling his reff to call people out when they are hit which is in his job description. If things happened outside of that, then I apologize. Having an ultimate directing reffs on the sidelines is nothing new to the MPS. We’ve had that at most of the events.

As far as the comment from the ultimate at the 2nd captains meeting, I don’t think he meant anything bad by it… he was just trying to be funny at the time as a response to the complaint that was brought up. The complaint that was brought up was that the reffs were talking and having fun with some of the players which in turn meant that the reffs were biased towards those players/teams and I do not agree with that either. I’m not defending his statement, I’m just saying that your reading more into it that what the reff intended.

Again, I’m not defending the bad reffing… there’s no excuse for that. But I am defending the comment from Tim that the MPS (which indicates to me all events) has had bad reffing. You T-Town guys should be arguing that statement as well since you guys did an awesome job at event 2.

As far as the 2nd meeting, it was instigated by me and I do think it was productive. I was receiving complaints all morning prior to that meeting and after the meeting, the complaints reduced tremendously. You may not have gotten anything out of it, but I got what I wanted out of it.

I don’t do this series as a primary source of income… and trust me, if you saw my numbers after each event, you would agree. Most of you that know me know that I have a full time career as a licensed architect. I do this series because I love the sport and I USED to have fun doing this series…. But that fun is slowly deteriorating. I’ve said at the last two events now to have you players help bring the fun back into the series…. After event #2 and after this past Saturday, some of the fun was brought back, but after this past Sunday and after reading all the complains on the forums, the fun has gone away again. So now I ask myself, why do the series if it isn’t fun anymore?? Or I ask myself, do I just do the 3man L3 and L4 on Saturday since I have fun on that day but not on Sundays?? I don’t want this series to stop because I know how much it means to some of you players but also keep in mind, that once the fun stops, the series stops. Don’t let that happen.

Later,

Dan
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Old 07-16-2008, 09:57 AM #151
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Again Dan I'll repeat myself stating that I appreciate the efforts you are putting in with the series. I enjoy having a regional tourney series to be able to play in.

Some of the teams see the MPS as a stepping stone towards bigger events, mine included. Let's do try to remember that paintball is supposed to be fun. We are paying and playing for entertainment. Sure I want to smash the other team every time I step on the field even in practice against my own teammates. Ultimately we need to remember that this is paintball not life and death.

One thing that the ultimate ref pointed out to me after one our games will help in the future. If calls don't go your way learn from them so that the same mistake doesn't happen in the future. Even though I didn't totally agree with the decision that was made after the game, I won't make that move again until a player is removed from a game. It's all about adapting and moving forward.
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Old 07-16-2008, 10:20 AM #152
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WHOA, Dan I didn't mean that the reffing was bad at all the events. This is only the first one Ive ever played in. Im sorry if it sounded that way. I guess what I was trying to say is that if you get a newer team who plays and exsperiences the bad reffing they might not want to come back, because it shows them thats how tourney paintball is. And thats not true. Sorry again. In no way am I bashing your series, just the reffing. Im glad someone out there is trying to improve tourney paintball in the area.
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Old 07-16-2008, 10:47 AM #153
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Thanks for clarifying. I did take it that way but know differently now and you have a valid point.

thanks,

Dan
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:06 PM #154
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I think the next event will be a lot of fun to Dan. I remember last year those hp guys had some great refs as well. Thanks agian Dan for putting on this series and thanks for all your hard work. I think the bigger the series gets, the more *******s your going to have. It sucks that its that way. There is always going to be someone whining about something because it didn't go there way. Its so much easier to blame others than ones self. I remember looking over at your table a couple of times during the day and seeing people surrounding you trying to argue about something that happened on the field. That has to suck. I don't blame you for not having anymore fun. I'm sure you don't get paid even close enough to how much crap you take. Maybe on Sunday you can just disappear. Have someone else run the score board. Hide out somewhere. Make yourself a disguise and set in the stands and enjoy the matches.

I think all of us players need to grow up some more. We need to be more honest when were hit. We need to not complain about this and that and just play or were going to end up ruining a very great series in our area.
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:22 PM #155
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I would like to say thank you to Dan, Hank and his wife Evett, Mark A, and all of you players for a great weekend. I have never seen an event so well organized in my 16 years in this sport. It was great to see players having fun for the sake of playing rather than for just the prizes. For the most part, it appeared that is what most of you were there for. I will try to play the Witchita event.
I'm sure you saw this already Dan, but this was in the Oklahoma forum. I'm sure most of you know who Ryan Gray is. If not, he plays for X Factor. I thought that would say alot of how well you ran this series. I'm sure were all grateful for it to.
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:47 PM #156
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Ya, I had dinner with Mark and Ryan on Saturday evening and he was really impressed with the tournament. Thanks for copying that.
Dan
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:48 PM #157
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Maybe on Sunday you can just disappear. Have someone else run the score board. Hide out somewhere. Make yourself a disguise and set in the stands and enjoy the matches.
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:52 PM #158
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I'm sure you saw this already Dan, but this was in the Oklahoma forum. I'm sure most of you know who Ryan Gray is. If not, he plays for X Factor. I thought that would say alot of how well you ran this series. I'm sure were all grateful for it to.
He is actually their coach, but all the same. He is a very nice guy as well.
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Old 07-16-2008, 06:02 PM #159
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Wichita Mayhem is looking forward to event #4 HPP did an awesome job last year.
hopefully it won't be as hot as the last time we were there.
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Old 07-16-2008, 07:41 PM #160
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I wasn't at the event because I had to work. I have however played the previous 2 MPS with Truth. I've heard various opinions about this past weekend. All I know is that if you can't get people pleased with the refs at the NPPL/PSP level. Then you will definitely never have everyone 100% satisfied with the reffing at a regional/local level. For every team/person who thinks the refs did an amazing job, odds are there will also be a team/person who didn't think the reffing went that great because they were on the losing end of a call. I enjoy the MPS and definitely want it to succeed, but perfect reffing will never be obtainable... humans fail. Hope to see u guys at the next event!
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Old 07-16-2008, 07:46 PM #161
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I wasn't at the event because I had to work. I have however played the previous 2 MPS with Truth. I've heard various opinions about this past weekend. All I know is that if you can't get people pleased with the refs at the NPPL/PSP level. Then you will definitely never have everyone 100% satisfied with the reffing at a regional/local level. For every team/person who thinks the refs did an amazing job, odds are there will also be a team/person who didn't think the reffing went that great because they were on the losing end of a call. I enjoy the MPS and definitely want it to succeed, but perfect reffing will never be obtainable... humans fail. Hope to see u guys at the next event!
QFT. 95% of the calls were dead on. Even when one of my players thought he was overshot right after he traded with someone. The refs did an excellent job. Like I said, I had one bad call where I called a ref over to tell him I knelt on some paint and he still called me out. The guy in the OU headband was awesome. He was laying in a perfect spot and I saw him get shot alot. I didn't hear him whine once. I also liked having Aaron(sp?) out there checking people before games to look for old hits.
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Old 07-16-2008, 10:18 PM #162
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Don't sweat it Dan. You will always hear more from the vocal minority than the silent and satisfied majority. It looks to me that players complain all the way to the pros so I'd say you're right there with the big boys. I think the attendance numbers speak for themselves. Some teams drove right past a tournement in Salina to go all the way to PCOC to play the midwest series because they have confidence in the series.

The reffing Saturday was "hazy" to start and I was happy to see the ultimate ref coaching the refs and trying to do what's right. The effort counts for a lot. I'm sure the refs were volunteers as are most of them. Maybe the L1/L2 teams can ref Saturdays and the L3 teams can ref Sunday?
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Old 07-16-2008, 10:57 PM #163
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Awesome discussion.

My only question is: Did the L2 teams that didn't make the top 3 list in their division get their $250 worth?

Dan, something to think about. Not sure if you're getting repeat attending teams that fail to rise to the occasion. First of all, I think you can hone in on the type of equipment L2 teams are using and obviously the top placing teams aren't shooting lower priced guns such as the Mini (less them half of them are). You see high end guns, such as Egos, with some teams shooting $1K+ Egos. That tells me, they don't care about the Minis, other than to sell them to buy more paint and get the trophy. I just find that 7 games aren't worth the $250 or $300 for late sign ups (not to mention the gas $ to get to site). At least, not to win Minis. It might make more sense to make the prize package more appealing or lower the entry and provide a "Paint" prize package or something more useful for those teams that already got the Egos, etc. Or best of all, get us a minimum of 10 games per event. (Yeah, hard to do with so many teams. Can you talk the field owners to use two fields?)

BLV hasn't competed in the MPS for this reason since MPS #1 in which we played only 5 games for $300 bucks (yeah, we signed up late). We were a new team and we sucked. We've been practicing since then and we have our eyes set on MPS #4, however, if it's for just 5 games, then it is an event setup to to see some harsh play. Anyone can guarantee that you'll see some cut-throat play regardless of ref calls or how high the temperature gets. According to other thread contributers, the players' (and refs) antics that was observed at your last tourney are not the standard of a good tournament, I'd suggest you get a radio and have the ref closest to any ruckus "hot-mike" it so you can hear the entire thing go down until you can actually appear on the scene. You need to start reinforcing your threats and actually ban those teams or players that give this sport a bad name. It's pretty obvious that there are teams out there that play the series like it is "life or death". I'm not saying we'll be there with that kind of attitude, but there will be tensions and tempers that rise -because a lot is at stake when you got just 5-7 games to be in the top 3 seed for the finals.

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Old 07-16-2008, 11:47 PM #164
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the only thing i would change about sunday,( didnt play saturday or have a chance to watch but 3 games), is the pace of the games, there was alot of time between games. i know when the ua's where called to the hole we were already cronoed and ready to get on the field. other teams not so much.

As for the refs, they started out, well ok. then after the 2nd metting they were pretty good, alot better from earlier and satruday. then once finals hit lazy.... Trust me i know once finals hit, refs are tired and ready to go.

Just some food for thought, but next year over shooting needs to be inforced. Not sure what the rules say, but i have seen many people in the last few events take 15+ balls in the back while being bunkered. I know that some of you will say well its 15bps ramp, bs....the trigger still has to be pulled atleast 4 times for it to ramp. you dont need to put 4 into a back of a player that you bunkered. that is why it has been getting so heated out there.
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Old 07-18-2008, 03:46 PM #165
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Pictures of this event have been posted on the Oklahoma forum on PBNation.

Dan
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Old 07-18-2008, 04:15 PM #166
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I’m playing catch up on everyones comments….

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but perfect reffing will never be obtainable... humans fail
True that. Reffing will NEVER be perfect for ANY competitive sport. If you can’t accept a bad call, pick yourself up, bounce back and win the next game… then competitive sports isn’t for you.


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, they don't care about the Minis, other than to sell them
I know that. I never give away a Mini thinking that someone will sell their ego to use the mini. The purpose of Mini’s is either for a back-up marker or to sell.


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make the prize package more appealing or lower the entry
I’m not about to give away details of what KEE is offering the series. I can tell you that if I stick w/ KEE products, I am able to give away A TON MORE PRODUCT FOR LESS PRICE. I can do the Ego’s like you said but 5 of those would be 90% - 100% of my prize budget and the prizes for 2nd thru 6th would be crap. Not a win-win situation.

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get us a minimum of 10 games per event
There are many factors that one must consider when going the game schedules. You can’t just say…. 10 games… and things magically happen. I must consider the total number of games (including finals), the number of reffs, the number of fields, etc. If a host field only has 1 field set up for Sundays (which is all that most fields have because of lack of staff and bunkers) then it is impossible to guarantee 10 games on Sundays.

Take event 3 for example. As it was, L2 had 14 teams so we did two brackets of 7 giving teams 6 games each in prelims and we STILL didn’t get done till 4:30 or so. If we would have done a single round giving you teams 13 games, the games would have gone on till 9pm at best guess.

Not to mention there is the cost factor. Most teams shoot an average of 1.5 cases of paint per game in 5man. With 10+ games, your buying 15 cases of paint ($900). A lot of teams can not afford this and appreciate having 5-6 games and still winning over $2000 worth in prizes for first place.

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I'd suggest you get a radio
Good idea.

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is the pace of the games, there was alot of time between games
You players… not me is the determining factor on the pace of the games. I timed a game at event #3 and the game was over in just a little over 1 minute…. However, by the time the players (slowely) picked up their pods, walked off the field, the new teams walked on the field, did their thing and got ready to play… my stop watch on my phone had over 5 minutes on it! So if you want faster games, encourage players to hurry on and off the field.

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over shooting needs to be inforced. Not sure what the rules say
Overshooting is at the reff’s discretion and it is all circumstantial. For example, if it is 4 against 1 and that one player ends up with 15 shots on them with 4 people shooting, I do NOT call that overshooting. However, if it is 1 on 1 or something and that player has 15 shots on them, then it could be called.

Not to mention, overshooting is at the fault of the player being shot too. I seldom seeing a player raising their hand as they walk off the field, or players will stand straight up out of their bunker while the other team is still shooting (some waive their hands to the side) or some players will walk in a lane of paint. None of this I would call overshooting either.


We’ll I’m off to Kansas City.

Later everyone!

Dan
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