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Old 06-12-2008, 07:15 PM #43
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:27 PM #44
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Notice that he never mentioned wages

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmag911 View Post
No one is reluctant, but having an on field ultimate is not, in my opinion, the answer to the problem of clarifying questions, arguments or protests. Like you mentioned, having the ultimate on field could very well result in him missing the call in question.

What is the difference in discussing a call with someone who is on the field and missed the call or a person who was no where near the field when the issue took place?

At this point, I don't feel there is a perfect or near perfect reffing "system" that you are mentioning. Reffing is getting much better, like Boogie mentioned. There are conditions that will help reffing get to the near perfect status. Here are the parts to me that contribute to a more accurate system:

* Consistent ref "teams" who work together all season as much as possible. Similar to a playing team, refs work better when they work with the same guys on a regular basis.
* Proper ref support from the leagues. This includes, but is not limited to, adequate room and board at an event, adequate numbers of refs per field, adequate ref supplies (paper towels, fruit, nutritious snacks, water, electrolyte replacing fluids, etc.) and support from the league officials when the above are not provided. If this support is provided, there won't be a revolving door with refs. Consistent, happy refs will keep coming back to each event.
* Better and continuted training, for new and veteran refs. From the ground up, refs should be supported with training. Ref training classes are a great start. You have to start at the bottom to work up, but the journey to become a better ref needs support. This could be in the form of e-mails from the league between events to go over suggestions, changes, compliments, concerns, etc. Additionally, training should continue to take place during events without hindering the quality of reffing during games. This could be in the form of mentoring, off or on field evaluations, etc.
* Proper support from the players. Yes, from the players. The majority of players are very respectful to the refs. But there is an attitude in paintball from a growing percentage of players that the refs can and should be taken advantage of. I haven't seen it in any other "sport" where players "practice" persuading or influencing refs to their advantage. Players need to play their game and leave the reffing to the refs.

Will all these things help end "bad" calls. Not completely, but remember, a bad call is just that. There are three sides to every call. Your side, the other team's side and the ref's side. It becomes the ref's job to balance this act and make the proper call based on the details provided. Wrong calls happen, bad calls happen, mistakes happen. Even in the NHL, NBA, and NFL. It happens to be part of the game(s).

Does this answer all the issues? No. This is also only my thoughts on reffing. I played tournament paintball from 99-2003 and have been reffing the NPPL since 2006, so I have seen both sides and appreciate both sides. My biggest concern with the advancement of reffing is the support from the leagues. In most cases, reffing is an after thought and not well organized or planned. I honestly feel that this should be a main priority. Attention to detail is lacking big time right now. Ok, I have typed enough...discuss as you see fit.
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Old 06-12-2008, 10:46 PM #45
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Originally Posted by MiLLz View Post
Notice that he never mentioned wages
The point is that refs get paid no matter how they ref a game, or what calls they make.
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:14 PM #46
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The point is that refs get paid no matter how they ref a game, or what calls they make.
Now that is a completely separate but valid point. I agree that experienced refs should get paid more and I think that there should be a "bonus" system where refs are individually rated and paid a bonus accordingly. However, I wouldn't personally give the teams much input on that.
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:17 PM #47
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Originally Posted by TeamShellShock View Post
Refs only get the full hour for lunch if there field is on time (which depends on refs and teams)

So the players who play 8 games a day (generally with an hour in between each game) have a harder day then the refs who ref 70 games (2-5 minutes between each game)? So on Friday and Saturday players will play a max of 112 minutes, refs will do a max of 980 minutes. Refs show up earlier then (most) players, and leave after them as well.
Okay, even if they don't get a whole stinkin hour for lunch doesn't mean they don't have any time to eat a lunch, they are provided with snacks and water all day, it's up to them to take advantage of it... if they don't hydrate themselves that's on them...

And I don't remember having an hour between any game, so I think you should retime that. And they aren't playing 70 games, they're watching, focusing, and do some running around. I'm sure a lot of players exert more energy in the games they play than the refs do all day. Stop *****in about food and water, they are supplements but they don't stop bad reffing. And I'm sure they aren't running around, doing laps before or after the players leave so that's not really relevant.

Who cares if that snacks might suck? I'm sure if you're dying in the desert you're not going to pass up food because you don't like what's being given to you... if you need food, you need food... you can't be too picky at that point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MiLLz View Post
Warning: get some popcorn, its a long one.

Bad calls are a fact of sports. There is no sport that does not have bad calls at the pro level. Yes, it can be minimized with instant replays and league overrulings and what not, but in paintball where the camera does NOT see everything, the instant replay is an unaffordable luxury.

It infuriates me to hear a player claim bias. In my experience, I have seen bad calls, questionable calls, missed calls, and downright incorrect calls, but I have never seen nor heard rumors of a biased call EXCEPT from players. And belive me, refs discuss mistakes in detail amongst each other. A whole slew of "bias" could be explained by the simple fact that it takes two people to cover a player, and that the second ref might be on the opposite side of the field. A lot of the rest of "biased" calls are simply "questionable," but remember since refs see more than the player, it is more likely that their dissection of the events and their order is correct versus what the player saw.

Soccer lady, at the end of the day, we players and refs alike are all tired be it equal or not and that does affect decisions. Believe it. Fatigue and hunger does not magically go away just because you are given a paycheck at the end of a long weekend. Precision is ideal, but our job as refs is not to be that. Our job is to enforce the rules fairly and consistantly.

This simple PROVEN facts are:
-more than one ref making a call just creates chaos on the field
-an on field ultimate ref is a waste of a body and is cost prohibitive

Realize that even with 12 refs on the field many times there are only 2 eyes watching the act in question. An extra pair of eyes from above will not see everything AND can still be wrong. An improvement on the current system would target the weaknesses of the original call on the field. John and Shell are absolutely right- food, water, fatigue, inexperience, and an ability to make a prompt (not precise) call are points that can be improved upon in any ref.
I don't believe I said anything about a paycheck? And I do believe I said it's up to a person to feed his/herself... so I don't see how that has anything to do with anyone but the person in question... they ARE provided with the tools/items to feed and hydrate themselves... they have to do that on their own accord. However, there isn't a problem with food/water being available so it's pretty much irrevelent. Also, I never said I didn't believe it affected a person, yeah if you are tired, I understand it's a little harder to respond as quickly..... I think everyone is missing the point of BLATANTLY bad calls, BLATANTLY ignored calls, calls that the refs know they f'd up on... the proposed system is not suggesting every single game that has a bad call shall be in line to be replayed. And you said it yourself "fairly and consistently" however that was NOT happening nor were "prompt" calls at a fair percentage...


I also think it's complete bull**** a ref can't admit when he screwed up... that's pathetic... after one of the games we had seriously blatant bad calls on, in which the ref screwed up, he knew it, we knew it, everyone did... but all he could do was threathen us to stop talking? OR what? What would he seriously have done to us for calling him out on that ****.... and all he could do after telling us to stop talking was walk away... so, you can say what you like but it doesn't mean anything if you can't own up to it...

Last edited by John : 06-12-2008 at 11:25 PM. Reason: Please stop avoiding the swear filter. Spell swear words correctly or don't use them.
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:21 PM #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThndrCat View Post
Is time really a problem? If at the next event you ref, a team feels they got a bad call and you say "ok we'll have a replay at the end of the day." Do you think they'd say "no thanks, we've got places to be" or "well it's getting kind of late..." Come on. Who's worried about time at a tournament with so much at stake.
I think the team that won the game will very much not want to replay the game. You might have made one team happy but another team is now very pissed. Plus, now you are advocating making the refs day even longer and playing games in low light conditions. Neither of those are good ideas if you want a well reffed game.


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You're probably one of those guys that people don't like.
That made me laugh a little. Boogie is one of the most well known and well-liked people in paintball. He has played and done everything in the sport and then done it again as a ref.
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:28 PM #49
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Now that is a completely separate but valid point. I agree that experienced refs should get paid more and I think that there should be a "bonus" system where refs are individually rated and paid a bonus accordingly. However, I wouldn't personally give the teams much input on that.
That's an interesting comment. Perhaps using incentives could promote more consistant, accurate reffing. Be it bonuses or another perk. Maybe an anonymous vote at the close of an event for the 'Best' reff'd field? It might spark some motivation. How else do you judge the refs themselves then by asking players??
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Old 06-13-2008, 12:39 AM #50
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Originally Posted by Shockmanwo!man View Post
Okay, even if they don't get a whole stinkin hour for lunch doesn't mean they don't have any time to eat a lunch, they are provided with snacks and water all day, it's up to them to take advantage of it... if they don't hydrate themselves that's on them...

And I don't remember having an hour between any game, so I think you should retime that. And they aren't playing 70 games, they're watching, focusing, and do some running around. I'm sure a lot of players exert more energy in the games they play than the refs do all day. Stop *****in about food and water, they are supplements but they don't stop bad reffing. And I'm sure they aren't running around, doing laps before or after the players leave so that's not really relevant.

Who cares if that snacks might suck? I'm sure if you're dying in the desert you're not going to pass up food because you don't like what's being given to you... if you need food, you need food... you can't be too picky at that point.




I don't believe I said anything about a paycheck? And I do believe I said it's up to a person to feed his/herself... so I don't see how that has anything to do with anyone but the person in question... they ARE provided with the tools/items to feed and hydrate themselves... they have to do that on their own accord. However, there isn't a problem with food/water being available so it's pretty much irrevelent. Also, I never said I didn't believe it affected a person, yeah if you are tired, I understand it's a little harder to respond as quickly..... I think everyone is missing the point of BLATANTLY bad calls, BLATANTLY ignored calls, calls that the refs know they f'd up on... the proposed system is not suggesting every single game that has a bad call shall be in line to be replayed. And you said it yourself "fairly and consistently" however that was NOT happening nor were "prompt" calls at a fair percentage...
Were talking about working 11 hours straight (minimum), and I've been at events where we had maybe 15-20 minutes to go and get food, and eat it. Now thats not a good amount of time to digest which of course can make refs sluggish. But since you don't seem to want to agree with a water/food issue, I think its been beat to death...

I've chrono'ed plenty of events, and you may not have an hour between every single game, but you don't play all your Prelim games straight in a row. But your right my time is wrong, players only have a max of 56 minutes for Friday Saturday not 112 thanks..

I don't know how often you actually watch the refs, but I cant believe that you think that players run around more in there short list of games. Try watching a flag ref sometime. As for showing up before the players, how do you think fields get blown up? It sure as hell isn't always the field crew...at SD I did our field 2 mornings and another ref did it the 3rd, much more work then filling pods eh? And I assume you players don't run laps after your games right? So if you have all morning games your done by noon (assuming 4 games a day) guess who is still around reffing, or cleaning?

oh and this smiley --><-- Means the sentence was meant to be a joke..
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Old 06-13-2008, 04:57 AM #51
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soccer lady, given the ignorant attitude and aggressive nature that I am perceiving i am not surprised the ref walked away and admitted nothing. I am going to do exactly what the other ref did and walk away. I encourage my counterparts to do the same. I hope you remember to have fun in your next tournament and that in the end, the sport of paintball is still a game.

I highly encourage any remaining civil discussions in this thread.
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Old 06-13-2008, 05:07 AM #52
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Shockowomen for someone who has to deal with extrememe heat you should know better than anyone that when you work /play in such conditions that in order to eat you have to cool down a bit unless you like puking it all back up.This is a point i have fought for years without much success.Referees need time to hydrate and feed themselves but are never given such so they troop on best they can.The better you take care of your refs the better your reffing will be.Also referees should be starting there hydration process a day or 2 prior to a event to keep dehydration at a minimum.I do agree that refs should take care of themselves better and that some forget these important steps but it takes time to lern this stuff for no matter how much i repeat my self on this there are always a few who just wing it and pay the price.


yes refs get paid no matter what some get 100 bux a day for 12-14 hrs work that $7-$8 bux a hour not bad eh???Some even get paid less than that so basically you get what you pay for.Now dont forget some of us do it for the love of the game and money is just a bonus to some of us.

I wish there was some magical solution to better reffing but there isnt we play a very fast paced game in which errors will and do happen the trick is to keep them at a minimum.One thing is tho if PLAYERS would cooperate with rules and such and quit pushing the rules we wouldnt have this problem.Before 1990 refs were there just to start games and keep the time players played with honor and integrity but this new generation seems to have lost that and now we need as many refs as we can afford to keep the peace.
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:27 AM #53
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Good lord, that makes you 60 years old or something like that!
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Old 06-17-2008, 11:47 PM #54
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First off do not take it as criticism , like some have said many here speak from experience.

We have tried it and some of it worked and some of it didn't.

Is there room for improvement, of course.

But ask yourself this question. Are each of the teams that compete ready to fork out 20-50 percent more in entry fees? I do not think so since I have spoke to enough who are satisfied with the current system and are not in a position to pay more.

Another thing you have to be careful with is the direction that you seem to be aiming at just refs and not about the players.

Yes they are paying customers but they also enter a tournament where they are suppose to follow the rules. If this was true there would be 90% less issues but they do not follow the rules and now you put it all on the refs. Refs are there for after the play not to dictate the plays. If certain things did not happen then the issue you bring up would not be.
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Old 06-19-2008, 01:28 PM #55
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Okay, even if they don't get a whole stinkin hour for lunch doesn't mean they don't have any time to eat a lunch, they are provided with snacks and water all day, it's up to them to take advantage of it... if they don't hydrate themselves that's on them...

And I don't remember having an hour between any game, so I think you should retime that. And they aren't playing 70 games, they're watching, focusing, and do some running around. I'm sure a lot of players exert more energy in the games they play than the refs do all day. Stop *****in about food and water, they are supplements but they don't stop bad reffing. And I'm sure they aren't running around, doing laps before or after the players leave so that's not really relevant.

Who cares if that snacks might suck? I'm sure if you're dying in the desert you're not going to pass up food because you don't like what's being given to you... if you need food, you need food... you can't be too picky at that point.




I don't believe I said anything about a paycheck? And I do believe I said it's up to a person to feed his/herself... so I don't see how that has anything to do with anyone but the person in question... they ARE provided with the tools/items to feed and hydrate themselves... they have to do that on their own accord. However, there isn't a problem with food/water being available so it's pretty much irrevelent. Also, I never said I didn't believe it affected a person, yeah if you are tired, I understand it's a little harder to respond as quickly..... I think everyone is missing the point of BLATANTLY bad calls, BLATANTLY ignored calls, calls that the refs know they f'd up on... the proposed system is not suggesting every single game that has a bad call shall be in line to be replayed. And you said it yourself "fairly and consistently" however that was NOT happening nor were "prompt" calls at a fair percentage...


I also think it's complete bull**** a ref can't admit when he screwed up... that's pathetic... after one of the games we had seriously blatant bad calls on, in which the ref screwed up, he knew it, we knew it, everyone did... but all he could do was threathen us to stop talking? OR what? What would he seriously have done to us for calling him out on that ****.... and all he could do after telling us to stop talking was walk away... so, you can say what you like but it doesn't mean anything if you can't own up to it...
Although it seems like this topic is revolving around the NPPL, i'll step in for the xball reffs.

An hour for lunch, oh god that would be my dream come true. The reality is that the reffs get a scheduled break for lunch, usually not amounting for much to begin with. Then if the field is behind schedule that break gets reduced, and at times completely eradicated. I have reffed events where we have had to power through our lunch break just to get games done before nightfall. On average xball reffs (not speaking for nxl, different scheduling) will get 10-15 minutes to eat their lunch. This is the only food we get, don't know where your abundance of food theory is coming from.

Yes we get as much water as our little hearts desire but you can't throw an individual a cooler full of water in 90+ heat and 85+ humidity for 13 hours with pretty much 0 breaks and expect him to stay healthy. You need vitamins, minerals, electrolytes, and all that other good stuff. You can drink too much water and get sick, not enough and get sick, or just the right amount and still probably get sick.

As for reffs not running around as much as players and doing less physical work. I will not even start at this because quite frankly that statement infuriated me when i read it earlier.

By the end of the day a typical referee has trooped through the following.
  • Heat exhaustion
  • puked once or twice
  • been *****ed and screamed at all day by players, coaches, and spectators
  • Gotten little to eat with no time to go to the food vendor for additional food.
  • has been shot up all day, and shot at all day
  • has most likely some type of minor injury, some cases more serious

Not to mention after an event when the referee weighs out the pros and cons, and wonders why the hell they keep doing this to themselves and their body.

And what do the reffs get...an occasional much appreciated handshake, some cash to pay their expenses and book a flight for the next event, with a little left over to buy their girlfriend a gift so that she won't break up with him because of paintball and traveling.
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