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Old 06-04-2008, 10:33 PM #1
Tainen
 
 
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PMR- PSST PSST PSST PSST sound.

Hey all,

I just got done re lubing my bolt, reg, and entire gun up. I did the O-ring sizing from the corrected chart in the sticky, with the BN 14 x2 on the front of the bolt instead of the back, which concerns me a bit, because last time I did that, it chewed up the regular size 14 on the back side and almost spat it out the front....

anyways, I aired up the gun to make sure I got it all right, and after I fire, I hear a pfft pfft pfft pfft pfft pretty quickly, like, 10 per second or so, and then it slows down, and down and down, until it's about one per second. Doesn't sound more than 20 or so psi just letting itself out every second or so near the end, but it's still concerning. Also, it's coming out of the barrel- not the rebuilt reg, or the back of the bolt. Once in a while I'll get an extended "PFFFFFT" for 5 seconds or so.

Anyone ever had this? Also, anyone else experience issues with the "correct" O-ring placement?

I'm tearing apart the gun again right now to see if I notice anything. :/

Thanks!
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:20 PM #2
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O-ring issue

OK, I took it apart, checked out all the O-rings. Every single one looked fine. I re-lubed it just to be sure, and aired it back up, and it did the same thing. I messed with the reg pressure, it didn't help it either way.
Then it turned into a full fledged leak out the front.

I degassed it again, and decided to put BN14 x 2 on the BACK of the 3 O-rin stack, again, like it came stock and like the stock manual says, put BN 15 in the middle, and the BN14 on the front.


Aired it up, it worked like a dream.

This, in conjunction with me finding that BN14 torn up after it being in the back position of the 3 in a row O-rings, leads me to believe that the "editted" manual for the PMR bolt is wrong. For further proof, I switched the O-rings on my brother in law's PMR to the BN14x2 on the front, 14 on the rear, 15 in middle, and all day he played with it, he kept getting leaking down the barrel issues. During a tournament. I asked him to go check to see if it was trying to spit the BN14 out the venturi on his bolt, like it was mine. We'll see...

Here is what I feel gives me the best performance/reliability:

For the 3 O-ring stack, back to front, it's BN14, BN15, BN14x2


No leaks, no weird pffft sounds. Can one of the DYE techs please look into this? It looks like the rearmost of these three O-rings, if it's too small and not the x2 size, causes some leaks out the front. We also might want to put in the PMR troubleshooting sticky something that says "if you're getting a leak out the front or intermittent leak out the front, change BN14 to BN14x2 on the rear of the triple O-ring area."

Mods?
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:32 PM #3
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Interesting. I hope we get more input on this. Good job on troubleshooting.

I'll be glad to change the image if we get someone to confirm this. Maybe even sticky this thread.
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:53 PM #4
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i think i have the same problem let me change to BN14x2 and see
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:05 AM #5
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just keep in mind if u get a pfft.. pfft.. pfft. pfft.. type thing were it stops but is rele consistent with the time in between pffts.. thats the gun over pressurizing and telling u to turn down the regulator....
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:20 AM #6
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Jester,

I initially thought that as well, which is why I tested the regulator pressure. If I turned it down at all, it just did the regular "PMR underpressurized" signature not enough air to seal sort of leak.
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:26 AM #7
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so the picture i made isn't right? i've been playing with the 14x2 thats the second o ring from the front of the bolt. so now im really confused and i deleted the email from Ed about the o rings too. damnit. so what is the correct orientation of the o rings in front of the bolt? im so lost.

Edit:

so the picture above is wrong?
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Last edited by PMR13954 : 06-05-2008 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:33 AM #8
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I think you have the right idea... but I think Tainen is saying that the bumper o-rings are opposite of what you have in the pic. If he is correct, just switch the numbers around, and upload the pic.
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:40 AM #9
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but i have been playing with that setup since day one when i got my PMR. when i noticed the second front the left was badly shredded so i replaced it and it was thicker than the other o rings in my kit. this has been going on since november 2007.
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:44 AM #10
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Hold off until more people gives more input. As I said, if he is correct, it is easy to just switch the numbers. But if not, we can leave the pic as is.
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:47 AM #11
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I recently had to change an o-ring in my pmr for the first time this last sunday but since something seems to still be wrong with yours after changing the o-rings according to the manual sizes, try just finding o-rings that seem to fit without looking at numbers. Couldn't hurt to try since the organized method didn't work.
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:50 AM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erayser View Post
Hold off until more people gives more input. As I said, if he is correct, it is easy to just switch the numbers. But if not, we can leave the pic as is.
PM Ed to get a confirmation. if what tainen said is true, ill change the pic and send it to you.
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Old 06-05-2008, 01:52 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tainen View Post
OK, I took it apart, checked out all the O-rings. Every single one looked fine. I re-lubed it just to be sure, and aired it back up, and it did the same thing. I messed with the reg pressure, it didn't help it either way.
Then it turned into a full fledged leak out the front.

I degassed it again, and decided to put BN14 x 2 on the BACK of the 3 O-rin stack, again, like it came stock and like the stock manual says, put BN 15 in the middle, and the BN14 on the front.


Aired it up, it worked like a dream.

This, in conjunction with me finding that BN14 torn up after it being in the back position of the 3 in a row O-rings, leads me to believe that the "editted" manual for the PMR bolt is wrong. For further proof, I switched the O-rings on my brother in law's PMR to the BN14x2 on the front, 14 on the rear, 15 in middle, and all day he played with it, he kept getting leaking down the barrel issues. During a tournament. I asked him to go check to see if it was trying to spit the BN14 out the venturi on his bolt, like it was mine. We'll see...

Here is what I feel gives me the best performance/reliability:

For the 3 O-ring stack, back to front, it's BN14, BN15, BN14x2


No leaks, no weird pffft sounds. Can one of the DYE techs please look into this? It looks like the rearmost of these three O-rings, if it's too small and not the x2 size, causes some leaks out the front. We also might want to put in the PMR troubleshooting sticky something that says "if you're getting a leak out the front or intermittent leak out the front, change BN14 to BN14x2 on the rear of the triple O-ring area."

Mods?
confirmed i changed the BN14 with BN14x2 on the rear oring on the three oring thing and it works like a charm now
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Old 06-05-2008, 02:34 PM #14
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^^^ Who did you confirm this with.

I'm starting to wonder if the original picture in the manual is correct now. This was posted by Ed a while back on a thread about front and rear bumper o-rings shreading:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed-Dye Tech View Post
Your veloctiy is way too high. Make sure the bumper o-rings are a 015 bn90 in the front and a 14x2 mm bn90 in the back. Using the wrong size or softer o-rings will cause them to shred that easy.
I can see that you would want harder material orings for the bumper orings so they don't shread, but I'm confused about how the front bumper oring changed to 014. What is the issue with 015 bn90? I'm very confused now.
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Old 06-05-2008, 02:37 PM #15
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no, the original manual is still wrong, because it says to put a BN15 O-ring on the front spot. That's incorrect- it should be a BN14. But thats the only difference, not the BN14 front/BN14x2 rear.

BN15 should only be placed on the middle of the three O-rings.
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Old 06-05-2008, 02:40 PM #16
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In Ed's post he mentioned 015 BN90. This is different than your normal 014 BN70. So you think the 014 front bumper should be BN90? I know there is an 015 BN70 for the sail oring. But what size is the BN90's?
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Old 06-05-2008, 02:48 PM #17
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Just called Devon (dye_ewok) at DYE to get the correct info.

Front bumper: 015 BN90
Sail (middle) oring: 015 BN70
Rear bumper: 014 x 2mm BN90

Original picture in manual is correct. It just doesn't have the durometer ratings. I'll update the PMR sticky when I have a chance.
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Old 06-05-2008, 02:52 PM #18
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Okay, I knew the "updated" one in the sticky was wrong, as soon as it chewed up an O-ring.


Are there 15 bn90 O-rings in the rebuild kit that comes with the marker? I don't think I have any. I've been using a 014 regular size and it's been ok, but there is a little extra room in the metal groove for it, definitely a slightly bigger one would work better here.
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Old 06-05-2008, 02:57 PM #19
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If there is a 015 BN90 front bumper oring in PMR parts kit, look for an 015, that is stiffer than the 015 BN70 sail oring. You can tell the difference in stiffness by pinching the outer part of the oring between your index finger and thumb.
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Old 06-05-2008, 03:19 PM #20
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Jebus I still lost. So I guess the picture I made is wrong then.
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Old 06-05-2008, 03:27 PM #21
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The original pic in manual is correct from what dye_ewok told me over the phone. The only thing missing in the pic/manual is what durometer the o-rings should be.
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