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Old 05-05-2008, 05:44 PM #43
frank-n-pulse
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unless your company has found a way to defy the laws of physics, and somehow limit the gravitational force the earth exerts on the ball as it flies through the air (which further slows it down) then yes, i am too.

Now, as to limiting the amount of potential spin on a ball via a fairly direct, none turbulent airflow. I can see that helping keep balls that wing off wilding down to a minimum.

That being said, if you found a way to use a portal gun to deliver the ball to the target, more power to you. Just an FYI. the cake is a lie.
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Old 05-05-2008, 06:14 PM #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
Angel Fragoza said the same thing as me. I guess we are both wrong? I guess I would say it has a flatter trajectory.
Yes, you are both wrong. Physics/science says you lie.
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Old 05-05-2008, 06:59 PM #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
It is not a perception. I guess you are one of those people that think that the exit veolcity of a paintball gun will give you the same range no matter what type of gun it is?
Way back on the original Shocker patent, Smart Parts has made claims stating "well documented tests proving the claims of added range". For 12+ years, Smart Parts has been repeating those claims.

Yet during that time, engineers, and experts have been requesting copies of those "tests". In fact, ANYTHING beyond anecdotes, and in that time Smart Parts has produced NOTHING. At this point, the only conclusion is its 100% hype.

That said, the way to improve range is through good regulation. A good regulator means you have a tighter FPS variance. Smaller variance means you can run at a higher FPS without fear of hot penalties. Higher FPS means farther range. Not exactly rocket science.

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Old 05-05-2008, 07:18 PM #46
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Please stop cluttering up my beautiful Luxe thread....
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:26 PM #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
It is not a perception. I guess you are one of those people that think that the exit veolcity of a paintball gun will give you the same range no matter what type of gun it is?
Typically you're the smart person at SP, the one that doesn't spew hype crap... but please don't tell me you're going to dispute the physics that identical objects moving at identical trajectories with identical spin, or lack of, will fly the same...
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:33 PM #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
I guess you are one of those people that think that the exit veolcity of a paintball gun will give you the same range no matter what type of gun it is?
I almost want to sig that
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:41 PM #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
It is not a perception. I guess you are one of those people that think that the exit veolcity of a paintball gun will give you the same range no matter what type of gun it is?
Please explain.
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Old 05-05-2008, 08:04 PM #50
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What is there to explain?

Sean is trying to explain that their gun defies the law of physics.
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Old 05-05-2008, 08:17 PM #51
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I held this gun at Sherwood paintball this weekend, frikken sweet.
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Old 05-05-2008, 09:50 PM #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
It is not a perception. I guess you are one of those people that think that the exit veolcity of a paintball gun will give you the same range no matter what type of gun it is?
Sean, I have a lot of respect for you as a player; but I haven't heard something that retarded since BillyG showed up and got curb-stomped over the 'Gas-Through-Grip' patent app.


Please, explain to me how lower firing pressure equates to longer range for a paintball that is traveling the same 300fps out the barrel as it is from my Automag, Rainmaker, Autococker, Piranha LB or Mokal Titan or Phantom.

That pretty much covers all the types of operation out there... Inline Blowback, Sheridan, Autococking Sheridan, Nelson, Stacked Tube nelson and Unbalanced Spool (blow forward)

Physics (yes that nasty 'P' word) states that two objects traveling at the same velocity will travel the same distance before coming to rest unless the forces of friction adversely interfere one way or another.

so, logically, if paintball 'X' leaves the barrel of a marker at 300fps and goes 80 yards before impacting the ground (let's say from a nominal hight of four feet) Paintball 'Y', exiting the barrel of a Luxe at 300fps will travel the same 80 yards before hitting the ground.

the ONLY way that will change is if one of those balls has a backspin to it, which will allow it to travel farther, but with a reduced energy state (meaning it is less likely to break upon target at those distances)


It's simple... no paintball marker is allowed to break these laws of physics.

So unless Billy and Adam have invented an anti-grav generator that requires low pressure to operate, this claim is total bunk.



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Old 05-05-2008, 10:49 PM #53
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i think u need some lux pics to make their jaws drop n stop talking... well typing...
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:58 PM #54
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And what Sean actually said was...

>>>It is more accurate than my other guns, and had better range.

Not more accurate or longer ranged than your guns, or mine, or Tom Kaye's, or Ken Griffey's. More accurate and longer ranged than his - meaning, than the rest of the guns in Sean's personal collection. Maybe all his other guns stink, or maybe their regs aren't as consistent, or maybe he does a poop-job of maintaining them. Nowhere did he say "the Luxe is more accurate and longer ranged than every other marker ever made".

On a related note:

I've never done the test myself - that is, seeing what the range really is from a 280FPS marker in a gun vise on an indoor range. I'd be surprised if the range from a 5" CQB barrel (Lapco, Sharktooth, SpecOps, etc.) were the same as the range from a bore-matched 14" barrel (Freak, Pipe, Scepter, etc.). Maybe, as HPL indirectly suggested, the Luxe's [perceived] greater range comes from better regulation allowing it to be run right at the FPS limit instead of a safe 5-10FPS below it to avoid hot-shooting penalties.
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:58 PM #55
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It is more accurate than my other guns, and had better range.
The gun does not effect accuracy or range. It is all about the velocity, mass, and spin of the paintball. So long as your gun fires it at the same velocity every time, then it is all up to the paint where it is going to fly. Now, if you told me that you were getting a more consistent velocity over the chrono, I might listen.

According to those numbers you should be able to get:
1 180rnd hopper
+11 140rnd pods
+ 20 extra shots
-Will

I find those numbers hard to believe. I would think that if this gun was efficient that someone would have advertised it instead of the speaker. Especially since these internals look very similar to a shocker's. However, I will keep an open mind for now.
Quote:
Maybe, as HPL indirectly suggested, the Luxe's [perceived] greater range comes from better regulation allowing it to be run right at the FPS limit instead of a safe 5-10FPS below it to avoid hot-shooting penalties.
If that's the case then Sean needs to try a Macdev or AKA gun and start shooting +/- 2 fps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
I guess you are one of those people that think that the exit veolcity of a paintball gun will give you the same range no matter what type of gun it is?
I'm sigging that one. Sorry, but dumb stuff from SP is too good to miss.
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Old 05-05-2008, 11:13 PM #56
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Does the gun have an SFT o-ring??

I hope not. SFT + Cold = no go.
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Old 05-05-2008, 11:36 PM #57
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heh, i get +/- 2 FPS on my AGD Classic Automag when shooting HPA and +/-4 when shooting CO2.
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:11 AM #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
It is not a perception. I guess you are one of those people that think that the exit veolcity of a paintball gun will give you the same range no matter what type of gun it is?
I think you guys are reading this all wrong "It" isn't defined clearly here. However if you read it as:

The change in kick is not a perception. I guess you are one ofthose people that think that the exit velocity of a paintball gun will give you the same range (and accuracy) no matter what type of gun it is?

Then the theory totally changes. And you can argue physics all you want however there is a logistical side of this that needs to be taken into account.

A Barret M82 runs at 853
The M2 has a slightly higher velocity of 930.

The M82 is effective at 2000 yards
The M2 is effective at FOUR AND A HALF MILES..
thats 10x a difference over only a 80 (just over 10% gain)
Same .50 cal bullet.....
That would be like me getting 200 feet off of a 300fps shot, then raise it to 303fps and getting 2,000 feet. By that same math decreasing your gun from 300 to 270 your ball would no longer be able to leave the barrel.

On top of that comes in the "kick" issue. At 100 feet a 2* at the barrel makes a 3 foot change. But assuming you have a 16" barrel, and your gun is another 8 inches if your gun "kicks" 5 degree that is a 2" change at the barrel. Much larger then 2 degrees.

So there is no doubt that by eliminating this kick a gun will become more accurate.

All things aside, there is a lot more to a paintball gun then simple gravity physics. For example, pressure applied to an already moving object. If anyone here thinks that the ball sits perfectly still in your gun prior to being fired, you are dead wrong. Take a pool ball and spin it as fast as you can, then hit it and see how accurate you are. Try again with it hardly spinning. Now, rather then a controlled shot, just put a blast behind it. Now, try to double tap the ball. hit it once while it was spinning to get it "on track" then again with the blast. Assuming the blast creates the same ball velocity, the actions prior to the blast change the accuracy. So is it far to say that 2 balls traveling the same speed will yield the same results? Of course not...

Finally, there is error corrections on a fired object, aka the barrel. The more error correction is needed (ie ball touching the barrel) the more velocity is need to reach the desired velocity, vs a gun that somehow moves the ball better, with less error. Think about a bouncy ball traveling through a pipe, if you launch it as hard as you can, and get it to exit the other side at 10fps, vs just lobbing it through the pipe never touching the sides at it exiting at 10fps, how do you think you are going to be more accurate? Should we assume that simply because the ball is traveling at the same speed that how many times you bounce it through the barrel has nothing to do with the direction it is currently traveling. And obviously if there is a ball on a "upward" bounce vs a "Downward" bounce we would expect them to travel different.

When you tie all that together you get a fire line. And this is really what I have seen the most in the lux. Balls exit the gun perfectly, making it very easy to see and anticipate where the next ball is going. Also because it does have less kick, and is more stable it is easy to "steer" your paint where you want it.

So, there is a LOT more to factor into the travel of a paintball other then just gravity.

-X
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:21 AM #59
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Yes, but I can hardly see this gun having less kick then another spool valve gun like the DM or Droid. I can't see it having less then an mQ2 cocker or an Excalibur either. You might be able to argue it has less kick than a Cyborg, but you'll have a hard time doing that. Now if all Sean has shot were egos and spyders then he would have a valid argument for saying it is more accurate by the kick factor.
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:35 AM #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exilict View Post
A Barret M82 runs at 853
The M2 has a slightly higher velocity of 930.
-X
It should be noted that you are talking about miles per hour not FPS in the numbers above.
and its not the M82 or the M2HB, its the type of round they fire. In FPS you are talking about 2700+ FPS for the round they use

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Old 05-06-2008, 12:53 AM #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exilict View Post
I think you guys are reading this all wrong "It" isn't defined clearly here. However if you read it as:

The change in kick is not a perception. I guess you are one ofthose people that think that the exit velocity of a paintball gun will give you the same range (and accuracy) no matter what type of gun it is?

Then the theory totally changes. And you can argue physics all you want however there is a logistical side of this that needs to be taken into account.

A Barret M82 runs at 853
The M2 has a slightly higher velocity of 930.

The M82 is effective at 2000 yards
The M2 is effective at FOUR AND A HALF MILES..
thats 10x a difference over only a 80 (just over 10% gain)
Same .50 cal bullet.....
That would be like me getting 200 feet off of a 300fps shot, then raise it to 303fps and getting 2,000 feet. By that same math decreasing your gun from 300 to 270 your ball would no longer be able to leave the barrel.

On top of that comes in the "kick" issue. At 100 feet a 2* at the barrel makes a 3 foot change. But assuming you have a 16" barrel, and your gun is another 8 inches if your gun "kicks" 5 degree that is a 2" change at the barrel. Much larger then 2 degrees.

So there is no doubt that by eliminating this kick a gun will become more accurate.

All things aside, there is a lot more to a paintball gun then simple gravity physics. For example, pressure applied to an already moving object. If anyone here thinks that the ball sits perfectly still in your gun prior to being fired, you are dead wrong. Take a pool ball and spin it as fast as you can, then hit it and see how accurate you are. Try again with it hardly spinning. Now, rather then a controlled shot, just put a blast behind it. Now, try to double tap the ball. hit it once while it was spinning to get it "on track" then again with the blast. Assuming the blast creates the same ball velocity, the actions prior to the blast change the accuracy. So is it far to say that 2 balls traveling the same speed will yield the same results? Of course not...

Finally, there is error corrections on a fired object, aka the barrel. The more error correction is needed (ie ball touching the barrel) the more velocity is need to reach the desired velocity, vs a gun that somehow moves the ball better, with less error. Think about a bouncy ball traveling through a pipe, if you launch it as hard as you can, and get it to exit the other side at 10fps, vs just lobbing it through the pipe never touching the sides at it exiting at 10fps, how do you think you are going to be more accurate? Should we assume that simply because the ball is traveling at the same speed that how many times you bounce it through the barrel has nothing to do with the direction it is currently traveling. And obviously if there is a ball on a "upward" bounce vs a "Downward" bounce we would expect them to travel different.

When you tie all that together you get a fire line. And this is really what I have seen the most in the lux. Balls exit the gun perfectly, making it very easy to see and anticipate where the next ball is going. Also because it does have less kick, and is more stable it is easy to "steer" your paint where you want it.

So, there is a LOT more to factor into the travel of a paintball other then just gravity.

-X
Ah, the ol' "You can't account for every possible variable, therefore every possible outcome is untestable, therefore I need not supply any data to support the things I say" defense.

It's funny how the scientific method can be used to accurately place objects into orbits around planets that won't be in their final positions for years, but it's just so fragile and useless that it can't be used to quantify changes in the firing system of a PB marker.

Give me a break guys. There have been fools selling the "more range/better accuracy" lie for literally decades, and they all use this same line of bull****. "It's too complex to explain or test or show proof of, but let me lay out a totally unrelated analogy that you can understand, which will justify the ridiculous price I'm asking for this device."

1) Pool balls are solid, not a crunchy candy shell with a partially filled rich painty nougat center. The two do not behave in even remotely similar ways.

B) How do you know paintballs spin wildly at high RPM when loaded into the breech or a marker? Got any high speed photography to back that one up? Any testing data at all?

3) How do you know that this marker shoots "perfectly" every shot? Any high speed photography to back that up? Any testing data at all?

4) Have you done any vise rest testing to prove your accuracy claims? If so, where's the data?

5) Have you done any vise rest testing to prove your range claims? If so, where's the data?

6) Have you done any controlled testing to prove your air usage claims? If so, where's the data?

7) Are you seeing a pattern here?

8) The muzzle velocity of the .50BMG round fired by the Barret M82 rifle averages ~2900 FPS (depending on bullet weight and barrel length). The M2 Browning Machine Gun uses the exact same cartridge, and will have nearly the same muzzle velocity (USMC reports average muzzle velocity of the M2 as ~3050 FPS). Given that the bullet fired is of the same mass and has the same ballistic coefficient, both weapons will have an effective range in the same ball park. If their muzzle velocities match, their effective ranges will match.

The military may list their effective ranges as two vastly different numbers, but let's look at what they're used for.

The Barret is a shoulder fired semi-auto or bolt action rifle, used to engage human and hardened point targets with aimed fire. This rifle's ability to place a single shot where you want it is limited by your optics and the skill of the man behind the trigger to about 2000 yds. The bullet has plenty of gas left when it gets there, but you're not going to be able to place your shots exactly where you want them beyond that.

The M2 machine gun is a base of fire weapon used to engage armor and other vehicles as well as aircraft and hardened emplacements. This is an area effect weapon, so it's maximum range is defined by the point at which the projectile no longer carries enough kinetic energy to deliver satisfactory terminal performance (IE the point at which it stops going through, and starts bouncing off).

This analogy is specious at best.

IX) 4.5 miles = 23,760 ft, while 2000 yds = 6000 ft 23,760/6000 = 3.96 (not 10). Should we assume your shot counts were calculated using that sort of math as well?

TEN) Why oh why must someone try this crap every year or so?
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Old 05-06-2008, 01:00 AM #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
Over 30. But seriously... a higher ROF does not mean a better gun. If you increase the cycling speed of the gun, you increase the force applied to the paintball. Hence, you break more paint. I think I will trade ROF in for breaking less paint any day.

I stole one from Darryl on Thursday and got to play with it. I shot 7 pods and 1 hopper and still had about 1500 in the tank. I cannot believe how quiet it is. I found out that if you use a tight fit on the insert, it makes it quieter. I was watching Dynasty practice today here as well. I saw a couple on the field being beat up.

It is more accurate than my other guns, and had better range.
So you have a better paint to bore match, and the reg is more consistant.. ok then I will by that it is more accurate... but **** do we have to do this debate again about trajectory and range wtf mate.
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Old 05-06-2008, 01:04 AM #63
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I still doubt that a maxflo is very consistent compared to other regs on the market.
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