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Old 05-05-2008, 01:02 PM #148
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Originally Posted by kaos336 View Post
Where are you playing? I grew up playing golf in Florida and that is definetely on the high side of prices. I'm in NY now and it costs me less than that here. I can golf for less than I can play Paintball any day of the week. Even the initial cost of equipment is the same if you were to get what is considered to be good equipment in each respective sport.
sarasota or naples in season and thats cheap
there are some low end stuff par 3 thats cheapers
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Old 05-05-2008, 01:17 PM #149
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i love the discussion eric started about the industry! BUT if you are not a field or store owner please dont jump on here and start talking about how much paint costs in your area, etc. this isnt a thread for you! its about business, which many of you know nothing about.

s
fyi --- i run a 4 million a year service company
have in the past owned both a store and a field
still own a screnario team



here in florida , be it paintball or anything else we have been hard hit by this recession perhaps harder than a lot of other areas of the country
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Old 05-05-2008, 01:19 PM #150
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The thing I see is the rate of fire or amount of paintball used has gone up drastically which accounts to the high expense of playing. But is that increase in rate of fire driven by the manufacturer or player? I don't know? Just asking.
Driven by the affordability of paintballs. Those that have adjusted to a higher ROF are having a bit of a tougher time adjusting to the slight increase in cost of paintballs and are therefore now complaining about the cost of the game. Those that can't adjust to the increase in price will drop out, those that can adjust, will, and tournament players will continue to complain about the high cost of the sport, because when they play competitively, they will shoot as many paintballs as they feel they can afford (and maybe a few more - hence the complaining) to get a competitive edge, no matter what the current price of paintballs is. Tournament players complained years ago when paintballs were $100/case and they complained when they could buy a case for $25. That will never change with current formats of tournaments.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:38 PM #151
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
Driven by the affordability of paintballs. Those that have adjusted to a higher ROF are having a bit of a tougher time adjusting to the slight increase in cost of paintballs and are therefore now complaining about the cost of the game. Those that can't adjust to the increase in price will drop out, those that can adjust, will, and tournament players will continue to complain about the high cost of the sport, because when they play competitively, they will shoot as many paintballs as they feel they can afford (and maybe a few more - hence the complaining) to get a competitive edge, no matter what the current price of paintballs is. Tournament players complained years ago when paintballs were $100/case and they complained when they could buy a case for $25. That will never change with current formats of tournaments.
well if thats the case, then it begs the question, whos fault is it for the price? paint producers? tourny players? greedy corp america? going from 65 to 36 a case for same quaility/better paint u wont hear grumpin from me. im happy for the price drop.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:51 PM #152
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well if thats the case, then it begs the question, whos fault is it for the price? paint producers? tourny players? greedy corp america? going from 65 to 36 a case for same quaility/better paint u wont hear grumpin from me. im happy for the price drop.
No one's fault really. That's just the way it is. That's the market setting the price. As the amount of paintball players increased, the paintball manufacturers were able to manufacture and distribute paintballs cheaper. With cheaper paintballs, players were able to afford to shoot more paintballs. Marker manufacturers replied by providing technology that allowed players to shoot those paintball more reliability. More paintball players shooting more paintballs, meant that paintballs could be produced and distributed in even higher quantities (cheaper). More paintball manufacturers jumped in to get a piece of the pie. This meant more competiton, driving prices down further. This downward trend continued to be market driven until the industry started to lose players due to the now high ROF. Now we have less players, but still shooting a lot of paintballs. manufacturers have realized that the trend is reversing (less players, not ROF), so are trying to reverse the ROF to once again turn the trend around so we attract and keep new players, so the industry doesn't continue to decline. It's all market driven, as change in any industry always is, unless of course it's legislated change.
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Old 05-06-2008, 08:40 AM #153
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
Driven by the affordability of paintballs. Those that have adjusted to a higher ROF are having a bit of a tougher time adjusting to the slight increase in cost of paintballs and are therefore now complaining about the cost of the game. Those that can't adjust to the increase in price will drop out, those that can adjust, will, and tournament players will continue to complain about the high cost of the sport, because when they play competitively, they will shoot as many paintballs as they feel they can afford (and maybe a few more - hence the complaining) to get a competitive edge, no matter what the current price of paintballs is. Tournament players complained years ago when paintballs were $100/case and they complained when they could buy a case for $25. That will never change with current formats of tournaments.

not sure i agree with this --- camp miles paintball does a limited paint format , and they struggle with a set cost that includes the paint

also --- just beacuse you have high rof doesnt mean you will use it all the time -- you can have trigger control ----------

i find the thing that botheres me the most --- isnt the cost --- its the change in the players attitude in the last few years (4 ,i would say)

and the intolrances of the newer payers of the newbies ---- ie players that have played 6 months to 18 months thinking they can lord it over the newer players - i think it creates a negtive enviorment for growing the sport
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Old 05-06-2008, 08:48 AM #154
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
No one's fault really. That's just the way it is. That's the market setting the price. As the amount of paintball players increased, the paintball manufacturers were able to manufacture and distribute paintballs cheaper. With cheaper paintballs, players were able to afford to shoot more paintballs. Marker manufacturers replied by providing technology that allowed players to shoot those paintball more reliability. More paintball players shooting more paintballs, meant that paintballs could be produced and distributed in even higher quantities (cheaper). More paintball manufacturers jumped in to get a piece of the pie. This meant more competiton, driving prices down further. This downward trend continued to be market driven until the industry started to lose players due to the now high ROF. Now we have less players, but still shooting a lot of paintballs. manufacturers have realized that the trend is reversing (less players, not ROF), so are trying to reverse the ROF to once again turn the trend around so we attract and keep new players, so the industry doesn't continue to decline. It's all market driven, as change in any industry always is, unless of course it's legislated change.

This is apples and oranges man. Rate of fire and marker technology have nothing to do with paint production. Paint production increased due to an increase in the number of players in the industry not because 5% of paintball players were shooting a little more paint. The influx of players in late 2004 and 2005 led to a fallout and companies (national and pmi) were left with bills to pay and too little revenue. Of course, poor management on their parts played a big role in their demise. ROF caps were put in place to give all players an even playing field based on marker speed.
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Old 05-06-2008, 09:09 AM #155
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Originally Posted by funfla22 View Post
also --- just beacuse you have high rof doesnt mean you will use it all the time -- you can have trigger control ----------
Absolutely. every individual can have trigger control. How good are you at cotrolling 10 million individuals or even 50? Also, the way prices are structured these days, fields need players to buy large volumes of paint to stay in business. You can't sell the paint to them and then tell them they are not allowed to shoot the paint fast. It just doesn't work.

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i find the thing that botheres me the most --- isnt the cost --- its the change in the players attitude in the last few years (4 ,i would say)

and the intolrances of the newer payers of the newbies ---- ie players that have played 6 months to 18 months thinking they can lord it over the newer players - i think it creates a negtive enviorment for growing the sport
Sure, atitudes of some/many players bothers most of us. Do you really think we've had a major change in our society's attittudes in the last few years and it's just coincidental that it's happened the same time paintball pricess have dropped to an all time low? You're going to tell me that just recently people decided to be more a**hole like and this is a wide spread phenomonem all across North America. Just a few short years ago, everyone played nicer, but now it's different and it's all coincidence.

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Old 05-06-2008, 09:59 AM #156
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This is apples and oranges man. Rate of fire and marker technology have nothing to do with paint production. Paint production increased due to an increase in the number of players in the industry not because 5% of paintball players were shooting a little more paint.
OK, so we have apples and oranges in the equation. You are saying the ability for players to shoot 30 BPS rather than 2 BPS doesn't affect paint production and paint prices? You don't think that little fact would affect the Demand side of the equation? Both the increase in number of players and the increase in ROF increases the demand for paintballs.

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ROF caps were put in place to give all players an even playing field based on marker speed.
That's true, where they are used. But, why did the PSP go from 15 to 13.3 BPS this year? It was already an even playing field at 15. The CEO (I believe his name is Blaine Wright) admitted that the industry came to him to ask him (and other leagues) to lower the ROF in the hopes that it would trickle down to the local field level. Why would the people that have thrived on marketing to us, markers that have an ever increasing ROF, and the people who sell us paintballs want to lower the ROF? Would it not be detrimental to thier business efforts? No. because they came to the realization that the high ROF is severely hurting the industry and if nothing is done about it, the industry will continue to decline. If the natural attrition rate is higher than retention rate of new players, the industry is in jeopardy.
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Old 05-06-2008, 06:59 PM #157
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and just where are you? or are you to ashamed to admit where your from? i do travel. and im far from a kid. kids cant work at a police department or own their own LLC, or manage a fleet of web servers with a state of the art datacenter. yeah i dunno any kids that can do any of that.

if you care what your customers think, then you should also care what potential customers think. unless you got a magic ball, and know my travel plans before i do, i highly doubt you will know when i may, or may not, pop into your store.

and btw, last time i checked, in the usa, an adult is any person over the age of 18, and there are many people in the paintball business. insurance companies, webmaster, graphic design guys, equipment resellers, distributors, etc. dont bite the hand that feeds you because it could hurt.
Hey im 16, started paint and air sports when I was 14, and a kid deffiantly can own an LLC, Iev done close to $50,000 in business which isnt alot for most people but as a teenager thats alot.Age has nothing to do with anything,
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Old 05-06-2008, 07:04 PM #158
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Hey im 16, started paint and air sports when I was 14, and a kid deffiantly can own an LLC, Iev done close to $50,000 in business which isnt alot for most people but as a teenager thats alot.Age has nothing to do with anything,
WOW.. congrats.. you are the first teenager that i know of that cleared 50k. congrats.. ill check out your website shortly
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Old 05-07-2008, 09:41 AM #159
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WOW.. congrats.. you are the first teenager that i know of that cleared 50k. congrats.. ill check out your website shortly
He didn't say he profited $50,000.00...he has revenue of $50,000.00 which as he said isn't much for a business. We and most stores couldn't make it on $50,000.00 in annual sales & service.

Congratulations kid!

It isn't uncommon for kids to own a simple business. It is only hard for them to own a business that requires special licenses and bonds. Me and my brother had a part time car audio, video & security systems business our last 3 years in high school.
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Old 05-07-2008, 01:43 PM #160
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Sure, atitudes of some/many players bothers most of us. Do you really think we've had a major change in our society's attittudes in the last few years and it's just coincidental that it's happened the same time paintball pricess have dropped to an all time low? You're going to tell me that just recently people decided to be more a**hole like and this is a wide spread phenomonem all across North America. Just a few short years ago, everyone played nicer, but now it's different and it's all coincidence.
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over the last few years you can see a falling of values all across america

families are more fractured than 20 years ago
everyone is in tune with i want it now
we have become driven by the media and its desires

and it affects paintball as well as everything else


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Old 05-07-2008, 03:21 PM #161
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Thank you for all the complment's,But just a little history.....Bob long was into archery before he went to paintball......I'am a single parent Who take's care of my 2 son's and I worked 2 Job's to make sure they don't go without....Now I only do this.......Yes I'am closed sunday but we are open till 9:00pm ......... for your info I do have chore's at home,make sure the little guy goes to school etc.....You see I didn't have a dad in my live he didn't give a $h!t.........I do.......How old are you Eclipse12..Just wondering.....didn't see much on your profile....not trying to be mean.....you see I do everything here bookkeeping,stocking,ordering....I have worded 16 hour day's for the last 10 year's......anyway enough said....good luck to all..JJ
I am not picking on you, but having or not having a dad has nothing to do with this. Your daddy issues are a separate issue all to itself. You ask him how old he is for some reason and you act like a kid with the way you post. You don't know any proper grammar. You just know how to use the ........ key.
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Old 05-07-2008, 04:07 PM #162
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I am not picking on you, but having or not having a dad has nothing to do with this. Your daddy issues are a separate issue all to itself. You ask him how old he is for some reason and you act like a kid with the way you post. You don't know any proper grammar. You just know how to use the ........ key.
I surrender..............^^^^^^^^^^^^^^YOU WIN..........I'am out of here.................

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Old 05-07-2008, 07:25 PM #163
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Sure, atitudes of some/many players bothers most of us. Do you really think we've had a major change in our society's attittudes in the last few years and it's just coincidental that it's happened the same time paintball pricess have dropped to an all time low? You're going to tell me that just recently people decided to be more a**hole like and this is a wide spread phenomonem all across North America. Just a few short years ago, everyone played nicer, but now it's different and it's all coincidence.
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over the last few years you can see a falling of values all across america

families are more fractured than 20 years ago
everyone is in tune with i want it now
we have become driven by the media and its desires

and it affects paintball as well as everything else


---
I'm not going to argue that American's values aren't changing. Values change constantly. But they don't change as drastically and quickly as you are implying they have the last few years. If they have, we've been immune to it at our field. We haven't seen any changes in the last 7 years since we opened our doors except for a brief time when we got pulled into a price war with competing fields (we didn't know better yet) about 3 years ago. During that time we lowered our prices. And, coincidentally I guess, attitudes changed. People shot more paint, we had more conflicts and after a while started to see a drop in attendance. A while after we raised prices back to what they were before (and still are today), attitudes got back to normal and attendance increased and is still growing today. All just an odd coincidence I guess.
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Old 05-08-2008, 11:28 AM #164
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During that time we lowered our prices. And, coincidentally I guess, attitudes changed. People shot more paint, we had more conflicts and after a while started to see a drop in attendance. A while after we raised prices back to what they were before (and still are today), attitudes got back to normal and attendance increased and is still growing today. All just an odd coincidence I guess.
Funny you should mention this as it's happening here right now.

Up till September last year there was really only one place to play in town, and that closed suddenly leaving a city of 2 million + without a single paintball field.

Can you imagine a better recreational sport for Las Vegas than paintball? I mean, apart from female jello topless wrestling?

Anyway, within the past two months, two fields have opened here:

- The Indoor; turfed with good quality astroturf. Two fields - a small rec field for beginners and parties, and a larger field for everyone else. Large field is approx 60 x 110ish (maybe a touch smaller). They have a FPO policy using white fill only, and a higher but still very reasonable per case cost ($45 or $55). The place is kept spotless, has a fully-stocked pro-shop, video games, the works.

- The outdoor; softball dirt fields. Three fields - two "regulation" sized fields (approx NPPL size) and one rec field. BYOP every day with reasonable entry and floodlights for night games (but they close at 5pm on weekends which baffles the **** out of me). No pro shop but cheap paint or BYOP.

What's happening is that the outdoor sees more of the "agg" kids who play on, cheat and are otherwise abrasive and the indoor is seeing the older age group and the players who want to work on their game more (the smaller field is perfect for running drills, gunfighting skills and so on).

A lot of the younger players will not play at the indoor because of the FPO policy and the extra $10-20 in paint costs, so stay at the outdoor and shoot more paint, yet have fewer games because of the heat.
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Old 05-17-2008, 06:08 AM #165
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I'm in the military, stationed in Germany. I left two years ago, during the paintball boom season. Came back and was shocked to see my local store hurting so bad. I bought an ego 08 on the spot, along with other nick nacs to play for the weekend before I came back here. Just want to let you guys know that there are loyal players out there. And I'm routing for yall... I hope we can all push through the nothingness, and see paintball rise to the top again. Playing paintball when I get back is half of what keeps me going out here.... Good luck you guys!
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Old 05-17-2008, 07:54 AM #166
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Funny you should mention this as it's happening here right now.

Up till September last year there was really only one place to play in town, and that closed suddenly leaving a city of 2 million + without a single paintball field.

Can you imagine a better recreational sport for Las Vegas than paintball? I mean, apart from female jello topless wrestling?

Definately sounds like you've got a winner there

A lot of the younger players will not play at the indoor because of the FPO policy and the extra $10-20 in paint costs, so stay at the outdoor and shoot more paint, yet have fewer games because of the heat.
I don't know what the weather is like in vegas, I've never been (I'm assuming very hot and dry) but down here in florida, its very hot and wet, and it just kills outdoor fields. If it isn't hot, its raining. If it isn't raining, its 90*. Playing more than 10 games a day becomes a workout isntead of a playday.
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Old 05-18-2008, 08:20 PM #167
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I have been saying the same thing. It is not just markers but all the other crap they are making too much on. Give the retailer some profit.
there is no question that the manufacturers are screwing over there dealers. on the other side of my corporation we are a briggs & statton mobile service dealer and a master service technition i would never see this kind of treatment to thier customers {that is us by the way} the tactics the manufactureres are pulling off is disgracefull from their collusion to their map policies to their pricing structures it is a joke. not all are like that but most of them.
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Old 05-18-2008, 09:12 PM #168
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it is tough times i can barley afford to go and play at n e feild
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