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Old 04-15-2008, 10:03 PM #253
ElPanda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ck8l4 View Post
if you have a lathe (with miling) you could prbably hollow out the bolt and therefore make it a littler lighter and more efficent. THis was done with the stock Ion bolt/
the reduced pressure from the open face would make it less efficient I believe, Im not rocket surgeon though, so dont take my word for it
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:06 PM #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pobre.baller View Post
I didnt think that delrin did well in spoolers. Something about the tolerances and the material swelling maybe, I am not quite sure.
I also thought this, but ACP claims that it will work fine. We'll see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by EgoManiacal View Post
But if Nicad does it, it shouldn't be a problem

And whatever other smileys the kids use nowadays.
I will contact him as well, but don't get your hopes up...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tEh PwNz1c0r View Post
xluben, I will give you whatever support you need to get this bolt made. I almost had a guy on here by the name of Sushifish mill me a custom quest bolt. Never went through with it. Maybe I'll make a thread asking about ertalyte tx in the voided warranty or the custom guns section.

Let's get this made!
I think right now ACP is our best bet for a non-aluminum bolt. And judging by his other products it should be cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ck8l4 View Post
if you have a lathe (with miling) you could prbably hollow out the bolt and therefore make it a littler lighter and more efficent. THis was done with the stock Ion bolt/
I'd rather just try and a get a new bolt made than drill mine out at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElPanda View Post
the reduced pressure from the open face would make it less efficient I believe, Im not rocket surgeon though, so dont take my word for it
It is somewhat of a balancing act....
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:08 PM #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElPanda View Post
the reduced pressure from the open face would make it less efficient I believe, Im not rocket surgeon though, so dont take my word for it
It would... to a degree. But the weight that you take off would be great and allow you to double that. Atleast in Ion bolt. however I would need to hold a G3 to tell you. I am no rocket surgeon either just I have read a lot of crap like this.
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:09 PM #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElPanda View Post
the reduced pressure from the open face would make it less efficient I believe, Im not rocket surgeon though, so dont take my word for it

Less pressure assuming the same volume and temperature always will result in less mass of the gas which means less total air being used up per shot. That is, if you are still shootign at the same FPS with the reduced pressure. I assume that your fps would increase with an open face bolt due to a higher flow rate which would allow you to lower the pressure.



So basically the exact opposite of what you said. Its true, you aren't a "rocket surgeon" lol.
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:12 PM #257
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Nice edit
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:18 PM #258
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I added one sentence. And it was a very important one lol.
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:32 PM #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tEh PwNz1c0r View Post
I added one sentence. And it was a very important one lol.
Yes, I pushed "quote" and was about to disagree with you, but the text that came up in the quote box was already changed!
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:35 PM #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pobre.baller View Post
I didnt think that delrin did well in spoolers. Something about the tolerances and the material swelling maybe, I am not quite sure.
He is right guys....don't you remember this same discussion we had when the Threshold came out. I think it was Intense that pointed out that shockers had delrin bolts at one time but they had all sorts of issues with swelling, dirt, etc.
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:38 PM #261
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lol owned.

I realized that there was a little part that was missing from my theory after I read it. The fps would have to be the same too under the lowered pressure.

But if you do a mod that lowers pressure while maintaining the same volume and temperature, and the fps stays the same, there is just no reason why you would lose efficiency numbers. And thats not even taking into account the fact that with a lighter bolt you could reduce dwell.
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:40 PM #262
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Originally Posted by rottensquad07 View Post
He is right guys....don't you remember this same discussion we had when the Threshold came out. I think it was Intense that pointed out that shockers had delrin bolts at one time but they had all sorts of issues with swelling, dirt, etc.
it was because SP used crap materials and the bolt tips would get scratched. Ertalyte TX with an aluminum tip ftw! I know that delrin has been used in ion bolts with great success and techt just made a new mini bolt out of delrin. Its at least worth a shot.
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:47 PM #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rottensquad07 View Post
He is right guys....don't you remember this same discussion we had when the Threshold came out. I think it was Intense that pointed out that shockers had delrin bolts at one time but they had all sorts of issues with swelling, dirt, etc.
Yes, I remember this. I guess I would have to wait and see how it turned
out before I could make the judgment. ACP currently sells a Delrin Ion bolt.
If that works well, I see no reason why it would not work in the G3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tEh PwNz1c0r View Post
lol owned.

I realized that there was a little part that was missing from my theory after I read it. The fps would have to be the same too under the lowered pressure.

But if you do a mod that lowers pressure while maintaining the same volume and temperature, and the fps stays the same, there is just no reason why you would lose efficiency numbers. And thats not even taking into account the fact that with a lighter bolt you could reduce dwell.
The reduction in pressure he was describing would be a pressure drop
between the dump chamber and the ball. If the air has too much room to
expand in this region it will actually DECREASE the velocity, causing you to
have to RAISE the pressure. This will not help efficiency. As I said, it's a bit
of a balancing act.

With the short distance between the dump chamber to the ball (in the G3)
this may not be as much of an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tEh PwNz1c0r View Post
it was because SP used crap materials and the bolt tips would get scratched. Ertalyte TX with an aluminum tip ftw! I know that delrin has been used in ion bolts with great success and techt just made a new mini bolt out of delrin. Its at least worth a shot.
Hopefully I can just get ACP to make/sell me an all Delrin stock knock-off
(minus venturi). If it works, great. If not, I'm out $30-40, oh well.

Last edited by xluben : 04-15-2008 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:53 PM #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
Yes, I remember this. I guess I would have to wait and see how it turned out before I could make the judgment. ACP currently sells a Delrin Ion bolt. If that works well, I see no reason why it would not work in the G3.


The reduction in pressure he was describing would be a pressure drop
between the dump chamber and the ball. If the air has too much room to
expand in this region it will actually DECREASE the velocity, causing you to
have to RAISE the pressure. This will not help efficiency. As I said, it's a bit
of a balancing act.

With the short distance between the dump chamber to the ball (in the G3)
this may not be as much of an issue.


Hopefully I can just get ACP to make/sell me an all Delrin stock knock-off
(minus venturi). If it works, great. If not, I'm out $30-40, oh well.
Even if I doesn't work, a open faced aluminum bolt wouldn't be hard to do.
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:54 PM #265
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im just sayin generally speaking open face bolts let you drop your pressures, and yes i did know that it meant the bolt would be lighter, but im not so sure that the 4 or so grams of aluminum will make a big difference in the ammount of effort thats going to be needed to get the bolt moving.

once someone makes an open face bolt for this and drops it in we will be able to tell

again not a rocket surgeon, i just like to tinker and i have my own understanding of the way things work, i also respectfully allow you to have yours as long as you dont bash mine or arent a complete *** that has no idea what your talking about, which none of you cool guys are
lol


so on a lighter note, i was thinking that when i got my g3 I would try and UL frame it. i was thinking that the board looks wide enough to drop into a ul frame. I think it'd look nice too
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:58 PM #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElPanda View Post
so on a lighter note, i was thinking that when i got my g3 I would try and UL frame it. i was thinking that the board looks wide enough to drop into a ul frame. I think it'd look nice too
I don't think the contour of the body will fit any UL frame well. Also, the stock
DP noid will still not fit without milling of the inside of the frame.

BUT the good news is that the G3 noid may operate at a lower voltage (so
the UL board could drive it). The Threshold noid was scoped at 8.8V (full
battery voltage), but I got a 4.0V reading on my DMM with the G3 board. The
noid click is also MUCH quieter.
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:03 PM #267
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Originally Posted by xluben View Post
I don't think the contour of the body will fit any UL frame well. Also, the stock
DP noid will still not fit without milling of the inside of the frame.

BUT the good news is that the G3 noid may operate at a lower voltage (so
the UL board could drive it). The Threshold noid was scoped at 8.8V (full
battery voltage), but I got a 4.0V reading on my DMM with the G3 board. The
noid click is also MUCH quieter.
im not worried about the contours of the body at all, dremel and files are ftw, as long as i can get the board mounted in the frame and modify the trigger so that it successfully activates the opto, im golden, and the noid is real tiny on the g3 anyway so i dont think covering it up will be an issue either

edit: sear? Im stuck in mag world
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:05 PM #268
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Wow, interesting....by the looks of it it looks to be the same noid as the Threshy
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:09 PM #269
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http://www.rogueengineering.com/Merc...ory_Code=OCTTX


just look
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:10 PM #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElPanda View Post
im not worried about the contours of the body at all, dremel and files are ftw, as long as i can get the board mounted in the frame and modify the trigger so that it successfully activates the opto, im golden, and the noid is real tiny on the g3 anyway so i dont think covering it up will be an issue either

edit: sear? Im stuck in mag world
I would much rather use the stock board. Then you can use the stock
buttons and the stock trigger setup. The noid is the same size as the
Threshold/Fusion which will NOT fit in the UL frame. Even with filing it will
leave some VERY thin spots. With the large curvature of the gun's body I
think a spacer would most likely be a better option than trying to file a frame
down that much...



Quote:
Originally Posted by rottensquad07 View Post
Wow, interesting....by the looks of it it looks to be the same noid as the Threshy
Yeah. Not too sure if my measurement method is accurate though. I don't have a scope to see the full signal though
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:13 PM #271
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lol @ people who want to UL everything.
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:17 PM #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tEh PwNz1c0r View Post
Unfortunately they don't list a wear factor of aluminum or steel. All they give
is a unitless number and a test method I know nothing about. All it tells me is
that it wears better than delrin (which I know is very soft). For all I know
aluminum is 100x better than anything on that chart.

Also, wear factor probably does not consider the fact that the material could
be cycling very quickly and be exposed to sand/dirt. And that one small
sratch could mean failure (leaking). In a shifter pivot you will get a LOT of
mini scratches. I actually have one out of a Honda sitting right next to me
and it's scratched a LOT.

Not saying it won't work, and it does seem better than Delrin, but I still have doubts on long term durability.
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:20 PM #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tEh PwNz1c0r View Post
lol @ people who want to UL everything.
I LOVE the UL frame, but the G3 stock frame + grips feels GREAT!

The grips create a semi-UL like curvature which is very comfy.
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