[Jlausen]

I think there is no reason to be proud in the color of one's skin. I think most people aren't necessarily proud of their color, but the culture associated with it.

In America, black people have "black pride", but you could draw conclusions that many do not know their country of origin, because people neglected to keep track of them during slavery times. I'm not making this a slavery thing, though, because the resources are there, if people truly wanted to know.

White people never really have "white pride", but they do have pride in their country of origin. White people seem to like to keep track of their main ancestory, often citing their Irish/German roots (these are easy, though, because who isn't a bit Irish?). They also like to point out the quirky things that they see as "unique" like Czech or Danish. I think that has more to do with many people not knowing that these are actual countries. And how often have you heard "Oh, well I'm 1/32 Cherokee"? White people like to throw in a little bit of oppressed people in there too.

Other races, I have less experience with, but Native Americans seem to generally take a stronger liking to their heritage. And I know a couple of Pakistani families that only marry inside their culture, keeping the tree largely Paki. I'm not too experienced with it though, but generally thats how I see it.

I think a lot of people don't really know what they're pride is in. A large amount of white people only take pride in what they know because they want to have something to be proud of. I also don't see a whole lot of black pride in the black people I've come across...or at least people my age. I'm afraid to say, though, that I think a lot of "white pride" is stemmed because of the inherent fear of being deemed racist.

Either way, I think people largely don't take pride in their skin color so much as the cultures behind it. I rarely hear white people say "I'm proud to be white", and when I do hear it, it's a lot less common then "I'm black and I'm proud" etc.

[Swerve22]

Originally Posted by shaka zulu

So Mr./Ms. Vantrepes (if that is your real name?), would you concede to the notion that if you work a corporate job and are a hard worker, but for some reason your boss thinks you're a slacker and then, even in light of your great work ethic, everyone else decides to be the "yes" men they are and begin to look at you the same way that you have: A) Been defined by others and, B) it has indeed effected you because you were just passed over for a well deserved promotion as a result of public perception?

Two points I would like to touch on in this post here.

1) Business's are there to make money. Money is the driving force for a vast majority of people on this planet. If you are working hard and doing your job to the best of your ability I'm pretty sure you would be making your superiors happy regardless of some pre-conceived notions they may have about your attitude. Honestly, how can a boss continually view somebody as a slacker based off of nothing but his first impression when they continue to show solid effort and great work ethic? In today's world a strong work ethic and good attitude get noticed quite quickly in the workplace.

2) The boss can "think you're a slacker" for any number of reasons other than race. There's plenty of slummy looking white dudes and responsible looking/dressing black dudes and vice versa and so on and so forth. Most of the time you can change the way people view you by very simple things such as you posture, choice of words, style of dress, etc. regardless of what color or complexion you happen to be. Unfortunately if you dress, act, or look a certain way people will view you that way (at least at first), that's just the way life is.

[shaka zulu]

Originally Posted by Swerve22

Two points I would like to touch on in this post here.

1) Business's are there to make money. Money is the driving force for a vast majority of people on this planet. If you are working hard and doing your job to the best of your ability I'm pretty sure you would be making your superiors happy regardless of some pre-conceived notions they may have about your attitude. Honestly, how can a boss continually view somebody as a slacker based off of nothing but his first impression when they continue to show solid effort and great work ethic? In today's world a strong work ethic and good attitude get noticed quite quickly in the workplace.

2) The boss can "think you're a slacker" for any number of reasons other than race. There's plenty of slummy looking white dudes and responsible looking/dressing black dudes and vice versa and so on and so forth. Most of the time you can change the way people view you by very simple things such as you posture, choice of words, style of dress, etc. regardless of what color or complexion you happen to be. Unfortunately if you dress, act, or look a certain way people will view you that way (at least at first), that's just the way life is.

You're absolutely correct; however (isn't there always one of those) my point is no less valid. A person can very much be the product of public perception (just ask a celebrity who starts believing their own 'hype'), and in the process that can effect them. Pick your own scenario...I was too tired to masterfully craft a water tight, irrefutable scenario at that moment (and still so now, which is why I'm not offering up an alternative..hehe).

[vantrepes]

Originally Posted by shaka zulu

I've got this one tammy...hehe

So Mr./Ms. Vantrepes (if that is your real name?), would you concede to the notion that if you work a corporate job and are a hard worker, but for some reason your boss thinks you're a slacker and then, even in light of your great work ethic, everyone else decides to be the "yes" men they are and begin to look at you the same way that you have: A) Been defined by others and, B) it has indeed effected you because you were just passed over for a well deserved promotion as a result of public perception?

(Sorry, too much Law&Order )

You would be defined by their perceptions IF you started to fulfill them. If you choose to slack off because "That's what they expect, so why do more", then yes, you have made a choice to be defined by others.
It would effect you because of your choice.

The fact that the people around you perceive you to be a slacked doesn't change the work you do, or the quality of that work. The simple fact is that you can fall back on your own numbers. A slacker isn't going to turn in their work on time consistently.

The thing is, a smart person wouldn't fulfill the perception of the boss, they would go job shopping.

[scumquat1]

Originally Posted by vantrepes

You would be defined by their perceptions IF you started to fulfill them. If you choose to slack off because "That's what they expect, so why do more", then yes, you have made a choice to be defined by others.
It would effect you because of your choice.

I agree with you. Ultimately individuals have free will when it comes to their "identity" (however one wants to define that term). If you simply let others provide an identity for you, that is also a choice you have made.

Someone can call me a greasy Italian, but I won't accept that identity (in fact, I bathe regularly), so it doesn't define me. Now, if I stop showering and become a bit oily, well then perhaps I've made a choice to accept what others have assigned to me. In any event, I've made that choice.

Those who would accept skin color as their main identity are weak people, IMO.

Originally Posted by vantrepes

The thing is, a smart person wouldn't fulfill the perception of the boss, they would go job shopping.

Absolutely. You always have choices.... you may not like the alternatives, but they are always there.

[ipoppedtimmy]

Originally Posted by scumquat1

I agree with you. Ultimately individuals have free will when it comes to their "identity" (however one wants to define that term). If you simply let others provide an identity for you, that is also a choice you have made.

But the fact is, people don't see a person's race solely of in terms of identity.

If a black man really enjoys hip-hop and dresses urban, is he just 'letting people define him?'

[scumquat1]

Originally Posted by ipoppedtimmy

If a black man really enjoys hip-hop and dresses urban, is he just 'letting people define him?'

Now we're talking about culture. To answer your question, he is choosing to be part of a culture. Plenty of whites choose to be part of the hip-hop culture and plenty of blacks reject that culture. It still boils down to a matter of free will and the choices implied by free will.

[shaka zulu]

The bottomline to my post is that you may indeed define yourself and never allow someone else to define you, but unfortunately in life as you continue to work, seek relationship, employment, etc. you will miss out on things because someone defines you prejudicially (not necessarily in the sense of racism, but more in general) and contrary to what vantrepes has stated, you will be effected by that maybe not on an emotional level, but the consequences of an uninformed perception of you will have effected your life in the general sense.

Now in terms of racism and prejudice, it is silly to allow others to define you and that is what all that "black pride" stuff some of you posted about is actually about. It was the effort of a group who'd been told they were less than human and nothing but n****rs to redefine for themselves, who they were. Now some might say.......that was a long time ago, there's no need for that now, but it wasn't. It's been less than 50 years. Now, when my dad's and my generations are dead then there will be no one alive who's actually been around to experience it first hand or hear direct accounts of segregation from people who actually experienced it.