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Old 03-20-2008, 02:17 PM #22
Furious Ge0rge (Banned)
 
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Originally Posted by Nick Alder View Post
Its insideously hard to extract oil from locked up sand. Also, the sand is very very hard on the extracting machinery. (think of running sand/water mix into the water intake on a jetski)

But again, we need oil, and we arent touching it. I see a efficiency problem here.

Thanks for proving my point, Oil sands are less profitable to refine.


Also, i hate the ****ing liberal hippies that protest oil extraction from the ANWR reseviour in alaska, because it "disrupts elk migration". Get a life. Those people need to be beat to death with shovels.
How does drilling in ANWR solve anything? The problem with crude oil is not it's supply, it's the fact that investors are too scared to invest in a new refinery, and thus, a new refinery has been built in quite a while.

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Originally Posted by Swerve22 View Post
We have a bunch of it in Wyoming and Utah as well, likely more than they've got in the entire middle east from some accounts. The problem is that it's much more difficult and expensive to make into usable, legit oil than regular oil as it's stuck in shale.
Yes, I know this. Can we move on?

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Originally Posted by Swerve22 View Post
Different independent companies are trying to figure out ways to make it less expensive, from what I understand there's a company claiming to be able to do it for around 10$ a barrel even (good investment opportunity?).
How much does it cost to refine crude oil per barrel? I'm not sure off the top of my head, but I know refining oil sands are not NEARLY as profitable as crude oil is, which brings me back to my original point.

Even though, Oil sands are more expensive/less profitable to put in the pumps for consumers to use, would the prices be lower given the amount of additional costs attached to crude oil production?

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It's also horribly defacing to the land (even though wyoming and northern Utah are pretty lame anyway). I'm sure if enough people started investing and donating they could get together some PAC's and start lobbying Utah to allow them to use it.
I'm sure people would get over it when their small business is no longer struggling to make a profit.
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Old 03-20-2008, 02:20 PM #23
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Originally Posted by Adema3412 View Post
Here's the thing, if someone could make money off of it they would.

Special interests may be able to **** over little projects, but if something as large as that was profitable, the oil companies wouldn't be stopping it, they would be fighting over who would have control.
I understand that it's less profitable to refine oil sands, but there's still profitability. Sure, not as much as pure crude oil, but it's still there, no? There HAS to be SOME incentive for lowering the gas prices for the entire country, right?
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Old 03-20-2008, 03:16 PM #24
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Originally Posted by Furious Ge0rge View Post
I understand that it's less profitable to refine oil sands, but there's still profitability. Sure, not as much as pure crude oil, but it's still there, no? There HAS to be SOME incentive for lowering the gas prices for the entire country, right?
Not exactly, because demand for oil is still being met. If we were to get to the point where OPEC and etc. were not able to supply enough oil to meet the world's demand then something such as oil sands, which are less profitable could possibly become and alternative.

Even if by refining more oil sands we increased the world's supply of oil, if it costs them $130 dollars a barrel to extract, refine, etc that isn't going to drive the price of oil down.

I hope that makes sense, if not I can elaborate.
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Old 03-20-2008, 03:34 PM #25
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Originally Posted by Adema3412 View Post
Not exactly, because demand for oil is still being met. If we were to get to the point where OPEC and etc. were not able to supply enough oil to meet the world's demand then something such as oil sands, which are less profitable could possibly become and alternative.

Even if by refining more oil sands we increased the world's supply of oil, if it costs them $130 dollars a barrel to extract, refine, etc that isn't going to drive the price of oil down.

I hope that makes sense, if not I can elaborate.
Yea, that makes plenty sense.
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Old 03-23-2008, 07:41 PM #26
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Im still a little lost, economics makes no sence to me whats-so-ever...

How does all this factor into a large price increase, because as far as im concerned it jumped from 1.20 to 3.20 pretty damn quick to be a direct effect of just speculators and what not. I was always told it was "greedy exectutives reaping in large profits" that kept the price high, but apparently this isn't the case?
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Old 03-23-2008, 07:48 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apicit View Post
Im still a little lost, economics makes no sence to me whats-so-ever...

How does all this factor into a large price increase, because as far as im concerned it jumped from 1.20 to 3.20 pretty damn quick to be a direct effect of just speculators and what not. I was always told it was "greedy exectutives reaping in large profits" that kept the price high, but apparently this isn't the case?
When demand lowers the price lowers, when demand increases the price increases. (in very, very simple terms)

Since the oil companies are still making loads of money because the demand is high, they limit the supply to raise the price more. This is legal, however it's not very ethical.

EDIT: You can probably expect the same thing that happened to the 'Trust's' to happen to the multinational companies (not only oil) as people are getting fed up with taking crap from them 24/7. (that's just a prediction)
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Old 03-23-2008, 08:21 PM #28
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Since the oil companies are still making loads of money because the demand is high, they limit the supply to raise the price more. This is legal, however it's not very ethical.
Not really. Companies will be the most profitable at equilibrium, not when they raise the supply to manipulate price. Oil companies would prefer to sell at the equilibrium price for oil, and not a penny higher.


Oil prices have risen because of a falling US dollar, investor speculation and increasing demand (both in the US and world-wide). It's not the "big bad oil companies" just deciding to jack up the price.
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Old 03-23-2008, 08:32 PM #29
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my truck runs off chicken fat so I dont care
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Old 03-23-2008, 08:34 PM #30
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Low gas prices delay the inevitable. The market for alternative fueled vehicles needs to be opened up, the sooner the the better. We need electric cars, now. (especially me)
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Old 03-23-2008, 08:54 PM #31
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Well, increased output would increase the supply and thereby drive down prices, but you'd have to prove that it was the conscious intent of the oil companies and the Iraqi government to keep output low to show any foul play. It's difficult to get the oil out and to tankers safely (as others here have said) because of violence and Al-Qaeda in Iraq's hi-jinx. Therefore, what they do extract has high overhead costs because of security, coupled with the fact that it's going to be more expensive anyway per barrel because they're not at maximum output and thus maximum efficiency (I know that sounds kind of circular but it's true).

For the Canadian shoal oil (or whatever it's called exactly), we haven't tapped that because it's just very expensive, in part because the technology isn't cost effective yet.

Another thing to remember about the demand for oil is that it's not just Americans guzzling it! Oil, like other commodities, is bought and sold on a world market that's set by supply and demand (plus OPEC's cartel bullsh-t but that's not only a minor part). Therefore, when global demand increases from developing economies, the price of oil goes up as well. China especially consumes a tremendous amount of oil and their demand is still growing. So on the one hand, we can buy cheaper parts and goods from the chinese, but gas prices will be higher as a result of their demand for oil to power their manufacturing plants.

And because I saw it earlier: Taxes DO increase the cost of oil. Not only is there your basic gas tax, but taxes to the company also make the whole business of getting the oil from the ground in some far off land to a refined product to make your car move more expensive. Also, taxing profits WILL NOT WORK because companies, as any rational actor will do, would rather spend the money on the company than have it go to the government - that's just lost revenue. So, when some populist in congress says "we're gonna stick it to Big Oil and tax their profits!" All that's going to do is give the company more of a reason to increase corporate pay, host parties, stay in 5-star hotels on business trips, etc. All of those things are business expenses and therefore pre-tax.

Thing to remember is that, like most other economic topics, there are many influencing factors and it's an extremely complex situation.
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Old 03-23-2008, 11:55 PM #32
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I have never understood why we do not use electricity/battery power to run and operate our vehicles. Electricity is cheap, more friendly to the environment, and would sever our ties with OPEC and middle eastern oil producing companies like Saudi Arabia.
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:02 AM #33
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I have never understood why we do not use electricity/battery power to run and operate our vehicles. Electricity is cheap, more friendly to the environment, and would sever our ties with OPEC and middle eastern oil producing companies like Saudi Arabia.
They cost too much, it really is that simple.
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:09 AM #34
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They cost too much, it really is that simple.
The cars cost too much? Or what? Because I believe paying record prices at the pump once a week costs way too much for the majority of Americans.

I think there is a large demand for an alternative fuel source in this country (due to the fact that is one of the top political discussions this election cycle), and if a company were to produce an electrical car they would have a large market to sell to.
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:16 AM #35
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The cars cost too much? Or what? Because I believe paying record prices at the pump once a week costs way too much for the majority of Americans.

I think there is a large demand for an alternative fuel source in this country (due to the fact that is one of the top political discussions this election cycle), and if a company were to produce an electrical car they would have a large market to sell to.
It costs too much to produce them; if those cars retail for over 30,000 or must have their expensive batteries replaced after 3 years. I'm just kind of bsing these numbers, but hybrids are becoming very popular, but even they are hardly cost effective. They are gaining more popularity due to perceived fiscal savings, as well as their cool factor and perceived benefit to the environment.

There are already companies that produce electric cars, but these cars are expensive and will not benefit the average consumer from a financial perspective.
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:43 AM #36
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I had heard on NPR not too long ago that one reason gas prices were on the rise is because oil refineries within the U.S. were purposely throttling production and raising prices.

The oil industry is a steaming pile of corruption and greed. Gas prices are rising daily and oil companies keep posting higher and higher profits.

Whatever the hell happened to the drive towards more fuel efficient cars? My 19 year old Toyota Camry is getting better fuel efficiency than the majority of new vehicles; all which claim to be fuel efficient. It sucks even more in Missouri how they've mandated a 15% increase in ethanol amount for gasoline. It makes fuel efficiency much worse and prices don't drop. Farmers are not even getting help by the increase in corn usage for ethanol. The difference in input and output is always the same but the media creates this aura of lies that farmers are benefiting from it all.
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:47 AM #37
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I had heard on NPR not too long ago that one reason gas prices were on the rise is because oil refineries within the U.S. were purposely throttling production and raising prices.


Link?
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Old 03-24-2008, 07:12 AM #38
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The cars cost too much? Or what? Because I believe paying record prices at the pump once a week costs way too much for the majority of Americans.
We're also paying record prices on most other goods (such as milk or beef) and the average income of American are also hitting record highs. Part of it is just inflation.

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I had heard on NPR not too long ago that one reason gas prices were on the rise is because oil refineries within the U.S. were purposely throttling production and raising prices.
I don't believe that. US refineries have to compete with other refineries as well as other fuel sources. They're hurting themselves if they cut back production to manipulate prices.

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The oil industry is a steaming pile of corruption and greed. Gas prices are rising daily and oil companies keep posting higher and higher profits.
Oil consumption and inflation are also rising daily. It's no surprise that they're seeing record profits. What are we supposed to do? Tell them to lower their (reasonable) profit margins because the volume of product they sell is so great? Are we supposed to punish them for being a successful business?

Oil is only worth what consumers and investors are willing to pay for it. Consumer demand is the reason that oil companies are profitable. Not corporate greed and corruption.

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Whatever the hell happened to the drive towards more fuel efficient cars? My 19 year old Toyota Camry is getting better fuel efficiency than the majority of new vehicles; all which claim to be fuel efficient. It sucks even more in Missouri how they've mandated a 15% increase in ethanol amount for gasoline. It makes fuel efficiency much worse and prices don't drop. Farmers are not even getting help by the increase in corn usage for ethanol. The difference in input and output is always the same but the media creates this aura of lies that farmers are benefiting from it all.
We've regulated the fuel efficiency out of our cars. New regulations on emissions, safety and other aspects of vehicles have regulated the fuel efficiency out of them. Powertrains are becoming so restricted and bogged down with required equiptment that manufacturers have to sacrifice fuel efficiency to produce a legal vehicle. All these regulations have a price for compliance and fuel efficiency is something that has suffered. As Adema pointed out, it's too expensive to make a fuel efficient car. And government regulation is often part of the cause.
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Old 03-24-2008, 07:59 AM #39
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We're also paying record prices on most other goods (such as milk or beef) and the average income of American are also hitting record highs. Part of it is just inflation.
While I agree with you, a large part of the cost increase on things like milk or beef is due to the increased cost of gasoline.

Quote:
Oil consumption and inflation are also rising daily. It's no surprise that they're seeing record profits. What are we supposed to do? Tell them to lower their (reasonable) profit margins because the volume of product they sell is so great? Are we supposed to punish them for being a successful business?
I'll agree to a point. They're certainly entitled to their success. But to what point do we let the free market reign? If the price of gas rises to the point where its threatening to collapse the economy, do we still sit back and the the market run unabashed? I don't believe we're there yet, but I do believe that there will come a time when the government will have to step in.

Quote:
Oil is only worth what consumers and investors are willing to pay for it. Consumer demand is the reason that oil companies are profitable. Not corporate greed and corruption.
But we need oil to keep the market going.
If you drive a truck for a living, you're certainly willing to pay a lot for gas if need be. But the price at which you're unwilling to pay is the same price at which you lose your job, and your customers lose your service. Reaching the point at which consumers are unwilling to pay for gas would be disasterous.

(Extreme analogy alert) If everyone in the world was diabetic, and the demand for insulin was constantly increasing, do we step back and say, "but everyone keeps paying for it. It's not the medical company's fault you're all diabetic."
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Old 03-24-2008, 09:25 AM #40
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I remember months ago when the ST: P Neo-cons (I forget the name of the guy, but he was a major douchebag) tried to blame high gas prices on new 'taxes' that the Oil Companies had to pay.



What's your opinion on the oil sands in Alberta? I've heard there's enough hydrocarbons there to fuel the Planet for quite a long time, but isn't being touched because it doesn't have the gigantic returns as pure crude oil does. Although it's nearly limitless, and doesn't have special interests sticking their grubby fingers in it. Sure, it's more expensive to refine and produce, but there wouldn't be nearly the amount of additional costs as there are to pure crude oil. Are we getting robbed for the sake of profitability?
well gas is running fast towards $150 a barrel. Im sure we'll see if its profitable soon. although there is a little more than just profits to worry about when it comes to doing anything in Canada.
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Old 03-24-2008, 11:36 AM #41
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well gas is running fast towards $150 a barrel. Im sure we'll see if its profitable soon. although there is a little more than just profits to worry about when it comes to doing anything in Canada.
Just a bit of a technical thing, crude oil is measured in barrels not gas.

Also, once the speculative bubble burst, don't ask me when, gas prices are going to drop significantly, I doubt we will get anywhere near $150 in the near future, once China and India really start developing yes, but soon, no.
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Old 03-24-2008, 11:43 AM #42
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Oil is only worth what consumers and investors are willing to pay for it. Consumer demand is the reason that oil companies are profitable. Not corporate greed and corruption.
Here's the thing though, oil companies are an Oligopoly and demand for gas is relatively inelastic, thus they are capable of taking away all of the consumer surplus and putting it into producer surplus.

Is this corporate corruption certainly not, but corporate greed can quite easily be argued.

If this were a perfectly competitive market or closer to it and gas's price elasticity of demand wasn't nearly as inelastic I would agree with you.
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