Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-22-2008, 08:15 AM #1
phiend
IV:XX
 
phiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Event Horizon
 has been a member for 10 years
Authority/Honesty

People in positions of authority routinely lie to the public. Sometimes this is not only allowed but the official policy, such as law enforcement officers. Other times its not the official policy although its still an accepted practice. The best example of this would politicians, from the lowest levels of local government like councilman and mayors, all the way to the highest levels our federal government.

While I'm not convinced I have the right to not be lied to, I do expect the truth to be told. Without access to truth, its impossible to make informed educated decisions. Liars invoke anger in almost every person. Even liars them selves feel offended when you try to lie to them.

In the case of law enforcement officers who stand before a court to testify to the truth of matters, how can they have any credibility? Yet these people are given the highest credibility unless theres are reason to believe otherwise.
I just do not understand how this is in the publics best interest? A short example:
police: "If you just tell me where the cocaine and I'll help you out. I'll just take them and write you a ticket. If you make me do my job to find them, I'll be pissed you wasted my time and make things worse for you."
citizen: "Ok, they are in my shoe."
police: "your under arrest...you have the right to..."
prosecutor: "Officer, did you find cocaine and meth on the defendant?"
officer: "Yes thats what happened"
defendant: "No thats not how it happened! I only had cocaine!"
Judge: "Guilty on all charges!"

Is the lie they told to the citizen not enough to affect that credibility?
I understand there needs to be evidence to support this but thats not impossible to plant. We know because they can lie as policy their reputation is in doubt. Its not a far stretch to feel someone who lies to the public also could lie to a judge. We've already established their lack of honestly. The defendant openly admitted to his crime, while the police lied. Who should be given more credibility here?


In case the of politicians it may not affect the general public as directly, but it does have far reaching consequences none the less. Without going into details of the incidents, I will make examples of G.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, and Richard Nixon. These man all lied to us, not in our best interests, but for their best interest with no penalties. No one held them accountable for their actions.
Do you believe the should be held accountable? What type of punishment should be enforced in matters as this? What about when campaign promises that fail to be delivered? Should there be something in place to hold them accountable for what they promise to deliver? If its not delivered should there be a punishment as a result?

edit: There was some level of punishment for Nixon, as he lost his job. But I was referring to a real legal punishment such as fines and or jail time.

Last edited by phiend : 01-22-2008 at 08:23 AM.
phiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 01-22-2008, 10:47 AM #2
Furious Ge0rge (Banned)
Don't Tax me, Bro.
 
Furious Ge0rge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: flag@whitehouse.gov
Politicians and people in power, lie, because they can get away with it. There's no Constitutionality anymore [Unless a Politician is trying to get elected, of course, THEN they break out the Constitution!] and virtually all Checks and Balances of Government are gone. Accountability, psh, what's that?
Furious Ge0rge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2008, 01:02 PM #3
phiend
IV:XX
 
phiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Event Horizon
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Furious Ge0rge View Post
Politicians and people in power, lie, because they can get away with it. There's no Constitutionality anymore [Unless a Politician is trying to get elected, of course, THEN they break out the Constitution!] and virtually all Checks and Balances of Government are gone. Accountability, psh, what's that?
I would say by my OP I am aware they lie. My question was related more toward , do you feel its acceptable for this to occur. If you don't, what do you feel can be done to change it?
phiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2008, 01:05 PM #4
Furious Ge0rge (Banned)
Don't Tax me, Bro.
 
Furious Ge0rge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: flag@whitehouse.gov
Quote:
Originally Posted by phiend View Post
I would say by my OP I am aware they lie. My question was related more toward , do you feel its acceptable for this to occur. If you don't, what do you feel can be done to change it?
Put accountability back in Government, get Big Business out of Government, give people more power in Government, and make it IMPOSSIBLE for Politicians to make deals with Big Business.
Furious Ge0rge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2008, 01:50 PM #5
phiend
IV:XX
 
phiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Event Horizon
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Furious Ge0rge View Post
Put accountability back in Government, get Big Business out of Government, give people more power in Government, and make it IMPOSSIBLE for Politicians to make deals with Big Business.
What would be the penalty when this accountability was breached? Impeachment? Exile? Execution? Jail?
phiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2008, 01:58 PM #6
Furious Ge0rge (Banned)
Don't Tax me, Bro.
 
Furious Ge0rge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: flag@whitehouse.gov
Unable to ever run for any public office ever again. Impeachment, of course. Cannot be appointed for an office, either. Cannot be pardoned. VERY large fine, or a LONG prison sentence. Messing with the interests and well-being of the people you're supposed to represent, is wrong, and should be punished to the furthest extent of the law.
Furious Ge0rge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2008, 02:14 PM #7
phiend
IV:XX
 
phiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Event Horizon
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Furious Ge0rge View Post
Unable to ever run for any public office ever again. Impeachment, of course. Cannot be appointed for an office, either. Cannot be pardoned. VERY large fine, or a LONG prison sentence. Messing with the interests and well-being of the people you're supposed to represent, is wrong, and should be punished to the furthest extent of the law.
Would this very large fine be a set number or based on a sliding scale? I'm sure you'd agree a $100,000 fine wouldn't mean as much to G.W. Bush as it would to you or me?
I believe its Germany, who bases traffic fines on the offenders income. Its not a set number, but a percentage of that persons income. This seems to be more fair then a set number, since as I mentioned a number that buries me may not be 5% of another's wealth.
phiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2008, 02:21 PM #8
Furious Ge0rge (Banned)
Don't Tax me, Bro.
 
Furious Ge0rge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: flag@whitehouse.gov
Any money made while holding public office, sounds fair enough. I think a percentage would be good too, depending on the crime. Soliciting a prostitute would be a minimal fine, and possibly not impeachment, but profiting off of the backs of the American people would be a very large fine/punishment.
Furious Ge0rge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2008, 02:27 PM #9
cali141
 
 
cali141's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Back Bay, Boston, MA
 has been a member for 10 years
Of course lying in matters of law is bad, but what if the president lied to protect us? What if, for example (please don't take this seriously), that UFO that was seen over Texas was really a top secret Skunk Works superadvanced aircraft undergoing testing? What if the president (or anyone else in a position of authority) lied to the public to protect the secrecy of the aircraft, so that hostile countries don't start going, "WTF, we have to copy that ASAP"?

Just saying that all the lies that are said might not be said with the intention of hurting anyone. Not saying I support doing such a thing, but that might be the viewpoint of some.
__________________
Probably listening to electronica right now.

Old feedback
My mag
cali141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2008, 02:46 PM #10
phiend
IV:XX
 
phiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Event Horizon
 has been a member for 10 years
The rest of the world knowing we have some advanced weapon such as an aircraft would almost seem to be worth more as a deterrent. Not many other countries today have the money, expertise, and resources to compete with American weapons platforms. It also builds trust, faith, and shows the public where are tax dollars are being spent. If we allow black programs, sooner or later someone is going to abuse one of these programs for their own motives instead of the good of the people.
The countries that could match our weapons aren't generally seen as a threat currently also.
phiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2008, 12:37 AM #11
apunkjunkie
 
 
apunkjunkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Marietta, Georgia
I'll address your little law enforcement scenario....

I lie to people all the time. I tell people that I care about their problems and lie about how much I sympathize with them. In all reality, I could care less that your baby's daddy is sleeping with another woman. I lie to people to get confession, "Hey man, your buddy just owned up to it. He's already thinking about pleaing out."

However, the situation described would be thrown out in court in a heart beat because the officer promised a reward.

Anyways, all politicians lie...they have to lie to get elected. If a politician told the truth of how they felt and what they were planning to do when they got in office, no one would vote for them.
__________________
BUY MY FSP VIKING CHEAP
apunkjunkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2008, 12:58 AM #12
phiend
IV:XX
 
phiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Event Horizon
 has been a member for 10 years
I understand why the police lie. I just find it odd that there is such an extensive process to make sure they hire honest people, only to train them to lie.
I also find it odd that the group of people with probably the most credibility in a court of law openly admit to telling lies. This has nothing to do with you personally at all.
My details of the wording of promises may of been off, but the general idea was there. I didn't realize you couldn't promise a reward for a confession.
Now that you mention that, I am quite confused. You can lie, but not lie about a reward?
As far as politicians the people would have to vote for someone. I couldn't imagine and election with no votes at all. There may be less votes for several elections, but people would get used to the idea. Wouldn't you have more respect for someone trying to get your vote if they gave you answers you didn't agree with, but at least knew were true?
phiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2008, 01:01 AM #13
Jim96SC2
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by phiend View Post
I understand why the police lie. I just find it odd that there is such an extensive process to make sure they hire honest people, only to train them to lie.
I also find it odd that the group of people with probably the most credibility in a court of law openly admit to telling lies. This has nothing to do with you personally at all.
My details of the wording of promises may of been off, but the general idea was there. I didn't realize you couldn't promise a reward for a confession.
Now that you mention that, I am quite confused. You can lie, but not lie about a reward?
As far as politicians the people would have to vote for someone. I couldn't imagine and election with no votes at all. There may be less votes for several elections, but people would get used to the idea. Wouldn't you have more respect for someone trying to get your vote if they gave you answers you didn't agree with, but at least knew were true?
Rewarding = entrapment IIRC. Just like they can't openly say its OK to speed in this area then write you a speeding ticket.

As for police lying, its a tactic. Everyone here knows there rights. If you give up that right your stupid plain and simple. An officer cannot change the law, only enforce it in whatever legal means are needed.
__________________
It is perfectly acceptable to use 40 years of data to determine that over 4 billion years of existance and change, mankind is destroying the earth.
Heller v. DC: The Second Amendment is now an individual right. You can't have my gun.
Election '08: Proving that America will come out and vote for well dressed BS.
Jim96SC2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 08:08 AM #14
SynTek
Big Brother With a Smile
 
SynTek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Nation of Joe
SynTek is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Is it just me or is the US looking more and more like the Guilded Age?

Seems to me that we have elections that are primarily about personalities, Candidates who refuse to take strong stands on issues, graft and corruption are once again seen as leading troubles in our politics, and we have become so used to politicians lying that we don't even bat an eye anymore.
__________________
You can't buy happiness. So steal it.
SynTek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 08:30 AM #15
phiend
IV:XX
 
phiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Event Horizon
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by apunkjunkie View Post
Anyways, all politicians lie...they have to lie to get elected. If a politician told the truth of how they felt and what they were planning to do when they got in office, no one would vote for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SynTek View Post
we have become so used to politicians lying that we don't even bat an eye anymore.
No Syn, its just you and I. The others believe they have to lie or no one would get elected and we would slip into anarchy. Its worse then just accepting it, we completely expect it.

What would an election be without campaign promises...excuse me, I meant campaign lies?
phiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump